Do you think that Ware could go down as the best defensive player in Cowboys history?

[mrmojo]

I never saw Randy White but it's hard for me to imagine him being as complete of a player as D Ware.

The guy is a freak. He's been a 1 man defense and pass rush for us at times in his career.
I just can't rank them because im too young and never got to see Randy White play from Sunday to Sunday.

Randy White was dominant at his position as was Lilly. Both were game changers and made the Flex defense what it was.Without Haley I dont think we win it all in 92, he changed the attitude of the defense, and that can't be measured by stats. Ware is a beast and probably the best athlete we have ever had on defense. He is in the top 5 in my book and depending on how his career plays out he could end up at one or two.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

one could make a case for Harvey Martin. I said that quietly.....

If his career was longer he would merit consideration.

He only appeared in 4 pro-bowls and was an All-Pro once.

BUT he's done something that no other Cowboy defender has done and that was being named AP Defensive Player of the Year.

 

[AbeBeta]

Well, for one, Ware's career isn't over yet. Two, you can't define a player based simply off of pro bowls and all pro teams. Especially players playing in different eras.

What I can tell you definitively right now is no defensive front seven player in Cowboys history has ever had the physical talent of Ware. Don't hero worship those guys. They were not the physical talents of the players today. It's just a simple truth. Most dominant in their era would be a better question.

I don't believe many people will look at Championships to determine where Ware ranks on the all time list. That works for QBs. Not so much any other position on the field.

On comparing across eras you are dead on -- there were fewer teams when White and Lilly played. So there was less chance to see someone with a dominant 15.5 sack season only make 2nd team all pro - plus many of the writers back then never got to see all the players in the league -- a guy with a great reputation was likely to continue to get 1st team votes because there simply was no way to see the other guys play

 

[superpunk]

Doesn't belong in this discussion until it wins a super bowl.

 

[superpunk]

On comparing across eras you are dead on -- there were fewer teams when White and Lilly played. So there was less chance to see someone with a dominant 15.5 sack season only make 2nd team all pro - plus many of the writers back then never got to see all the players in the league -- a guy with a great reputation was likely to continue to get 1st team votes because there simply was no way to see the other guys play

White is a more apt comparison but yeah - Lilly played most of his career against 15 teams.

 

[ejthedj]

Watching the old games, Randy White looks beastly but Harvey Martin looks like the guy who could play today at a high level. He had 23 sacks one season! That would still be the record. And 114 in like 9 years basically. Ware is making a run for Martin status. If he has a 23 sack, DPOY year sometime soon, he's got a heck of an argument to compete with White, too. Never really saw Lily

 

[DenCWBY]

Right now, the top of the list has to be Bob Lilly, Randy White and Deion Sanders in some sort of order. Next up would probably be Mel Renfro, Cliff Harris, Lee Roy Jordan, Darren Woodson, Harvey Martin, Chuck Howley and Charles Haley. I think Ware has already surpassed all those second tier guys and now has just Lilly, White and Deion* to overtake.

So what do you think? When all is said and done, do you think Ware will go down as the greatest defensive player in our history, or do you think there's no way he's passing Mr. Cowboy, The Manster or PrimeTime?


*Deion is tough to rank... he's probably the best cover CB of all-time, but he's half Falcon/half Cowboy.

He has a long ways to go to beat out most of the players you have on your list and he has not surpassed any of them yet. We'll see if he returns to form this year and if he does and puts together a few more good years, then there's talk about comparison.

 

[ejthedj]

Martin's nickname was "Too Mean"

 

[Risen Star]

While I agree with you that Ware's career is not over and yes he could still end up being ranked #1, but he ain't there yet.

You can't rank the physical talents of one player from one era to another. The older player is almost always going to come out on the short end of the stick.

BUT you can compare players from one era to other players within that era.

Right. The older player is almost always going to come out on the short end because the truth is the older player wasn't as good.

IMO, Ware is already better than the guys you mentioned. I'm not sure I'd put him with Deion though. But he's right there.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Right. The older player is almost always going to come out on the short end because the truth is the older player wasn't as good.

IMO, Ware is already better than the guys you mentioned. I'm not sure I'd put him with Deion though. But he's right there.

If you want to consider Ware better than all the rest... Have at it.

I remain unconvinced.

 

[EMMITTnROY]

Doesn't belong in this discussion until it wins a super bowl.

Hahaha. I see what you did there.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Chuck Howley won the Super Bowl V MVP and was on the losing team. The only one to do that.

It is difficult to compare eras because of advancement in diet and year-round exercise. Plus people are bigger.

But comparing apples to apples, Howley then Lilly and then the rest for me.

 

[muck4doo]

No love for Coakley?

 

[Pokes12]

Right now, the top of the list has to be Bob Lilly, Randy White and Deion Sanders in some sort of order. Next up would probably be Mel Renfro, Cliff Harris, Lee Roy Jordan, Darren Woodson, Harvey Martin, Chuck Howley and Charles Haley. I think Ware has already surpassed all those second tier guys and now has just Lilly, White and Deion* to overtake.

So what do you think? When all is said and done, do you think Ware will go down as the greatest defensive player in our history, or do you think there's no way he's passing Mr. Cowboy, The Manster or PrimeTime?


*Deion is tough to rank... he's probably the best cover CB of all-time, but he's half Falcon/half Cowboy.

Ware is nowhere as good as Haley. Haley was a one man wrecking crew. He disrupted the entire offense and scared the offense. Ware is soft by comparison. He is athletic but nowhere near as intimidating as Haley. Ware gets a lot of sacks in non critical situations. He is OK but not in the same league as Lilly, Sanders, Renfro, White and Jordan. I think Howley was better than Ware is now.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

I'm surprised no one has brought up Ware's win or go home record, or his do or die when it's all on the line and matters most record, or whatever ESPN is peddling that day...

Pro Bowls and All-Pros are a blunt tool, but a good tool nonetheless as it will give you a fairly good idea how dominant a player was in relation to his peers. And in this case, I think clearly it illustrates that Ware, though a great player, is no Lilly/White (at least yet). 7 First Team All-Pros is simply phenomenal.

 

[MagicMan]

Respect Ware as a great athlete and player, but at best, he is in the top 5 of best Cowboy defenders.....too many great dominant players who played with the Boys and also contributed to success come playoff time. Main knock on Ware is not having the opportunity to make an impact on the big stage---rightly or wrongly, I think if you want to be considered the GREATEST of all Cowboys on D, then carry your team.

having said that, he will be in the Ring of Honor and then Hall of Fame.....so no shame in that.

 

[jobberone]

Well, for one, Ware's career isn't over yet. Two, you can't define a player based simply off of pro bowls and all pro teams. Especially players playing in different eras.

What I can tell you definitively right now is no defensive front seven player in Cowboys history has ever had the physical talent of Ware. Don't hero worship those guys. They were not the physical talents of the players today. It's just a simple truth. Most dominant in their era would be a better question.

I don't believe many people will look at Championships to determine where Ware ranks on the all time list. That works for QBs. Not so much any other position on the field.

I don't know your age but I'm guessing you didn't see Lilly play. I think Ware has as much athleticism as LT actually. Athleticism only does so much. The rest is being a football player yada. How do you think Lee does what he does. That's why I can talk about Howley being a great football players and be serious about it.

Ware still needs to finish his career which could end tomorrow.

No one can say who the best player really is. The only people's opinions that could really matter would be Lilly, Ware, White and those that played against them all which is none. None of those three would say they were the best. So all the breast pounding in the world, verbiage, or keyboard pounding with authority will solve the issue. And yes All Pro still means something and certainly did then. Less players and less dilution of talent. And yes championships mean something although I admit I wouldn't pound the table with my shoe over it.

 

[Red Dragon]

He's gonna need some hardware imo..

It's almost impossible for a pass rusher to have control over whether his team wins a Super Bowl or not. Even a quarterback isn't fully capable of taking a team there, much less a defensive player.

 

[CATCH17]

BUT he's done something that no other Cowboy defender has done and that was being named AP Defensive Player of the Year.

Which is just rediculous.


Roy Williams should've got it 1 year and D Ware should've got it before too.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Right now, the top of the list has to be Bob Lilly, Randy White and Deion Sanders in some sort of order.

I just threw up in my mouth.

Seriously, Deion?