Does any coach punt from the opponent's side more than Garrett?

CowboysFaninHouston

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Because it gives you a better chance of winning the game....period
how does it give you a better chance to win the game? you make a statement. without any factual data except a paper from a geek who has never played football from Berkley (btw, I am geek myself). you assume that all 4th downs have a high percentage of converting where you can't be more wrong. facts, actual facts from games played over the past few years show probability of making it is less than 50% and less than 30% against top defenses. FACTS not hypotheticals.

I could give you the other side of the argument, one that's more realistic and not hypothetical, backed by years of NFL coaches calling plays. it would put us in a position to lose the game. less than 50% chance of making the play. First drive and we had two third downs already and now in a 4th down situation. your offense ain't exactly clicking. you are playing against a team with top 5 defense, and you want to try and go for it on 4th and 3? that means the previous three attempts you got 7 yards or average of 2.5 yards....and you are in obvious passing situation and your RB got 3 yards on his two previous attempts...now 4th down, defense is all geared up. your offense has to be perfect or you are in very bad field position for your defense. all the pressure is on offense. and less than 50% chance...and less than 30% chance against top 10 defenses and we turn the ball over mid field to giants. you haven't seen their offense....and now your defense has to defend a short field. mentally, it would be a victory for them, they get momentum right away and they go down and score and we are down 7-0.

facts are at that point, as you have said, you haven't seen your defense play nor the to play. so what do you do?

- Give them a 50 yard field to drive for a score
- give them a 85 yard field to drive for a score

even if they don't score a TD. they need 20 yards to be in field goal range...and now you are down 3-0. against a team you lost to by 1 and 3 points last year.

dumb decisions. glad you aren't the coach.

and one thing your data, your geek report doesn't show is the game is 4 quarters, and field position is one of the most important battles in football. just ask any football coach...ANY football coach.
 

Nightman

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how does it give you a better chance to win the game? you make a statement. without any factual data except a paper from a geek who has never played football from Berkley (btw, I am geek myself).

I could give you my argument. it would put us in a position to lose the game. less than 50% chance of making the play. First drive and we had two third downs already and now in a 4th down situation. your offense ain't exactly clicking. you are playing against a team with top 5 defense, and you want to try and go for it on 3rd and 3? and less than 50% chance...and less than 30% chance against top 10 defenses and we turn the ball over mid field to giants. you haven't seen their offense....and now your defense has to defend a short field. mentally, it would be a victory for them, they get momentum right away and they go down and score and we are down 7-0.

facts are at that point, as you have said, you haven't seen your defense play nor the to play. so what do you do?

- Give them a 50 yard field to drive for a score
- give them a 85 yard field to drive for a score

even if they don't score a TD. they need 20 yards to be in field goal range...and now you are down 3-0. against a team you lost to by 1 and 3 points last year.

dumb decisions. glad you aren't the coach.

and one thing your data, your geek report doesn't show is the game is 4 quarters, and field position is one of the most important battles in football. just ask any football coach...ANY football coach.
everything you just said is factored in and it is still much smarter to go for it....... it gives your team a better chance to win ............period

Your trust your gut scheme is just scared coach speak trying to protect their jobs
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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everything you just said is factored in and it is still much smarter to go for it....... it gives your team a better chance to win ............period

Your trust your gut scheme is just scared coach speak trying to protect their jobs

no its not. you have provided absolutely nothing to back up your madden NFL assumption. its just that you can't come up with any logical explanation of why its a better idea, thus you have dug in, refusing to accept the fact that you are wrong and being stubborn because your ego won't allow it. at this point, its a psychological issue and not a football discussion.
 

JoeyBoy718

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The odds of converting 4th and 7-10 from midfield are between 30 and 40%. I don't know what the odds of pinning the opponent inside the 10 when you punt from there are (50% at best?), but the odds of stopping an opponent inside their 10 (3-and-out, safety, interception, etc.) are around 35%. So the odds of pinning them inside the 10 and stopping them there are generally lower than the odds of converting the 4th down.

But which has a greater cost? If you fail to covert, you put them in a position where they only need about 15 yards to be in scoring range. If you fail to stop them inside the 10, they still likely have to go another 50 yards to be in scoring range.
 

JD_KaPow

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But which has a greater cost? If you fail to covert, you put them in a position where they only need about 15 yards to be in scoring range. If you fail to stop them inside the 10, they still likely have to go another 50 yards to be in scoring range.
You need to look at the costs and the benefits and compare them. The benefit of converting is extraordinarily high relative to a punt (you keep the ball with a 1st down in enemy territory). The cost of failing to convert is about 30 yards of field position, relative to a punt. There are many places where the benefit significantly outweighs the cost, given the likelihood of conversion. There are other places where it doesn't. But this stuff can all be estimated pretty well.
 

Nightman

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no its not. you have provided absolutely nothing to back up your madden NFL assumption. its just that you can't come up with any logical explanation of why its a better idea, thus you have dug in, refusing to accept the fact that you are wrong and being stubborn because your ego won't allow it. at this point, its a psychological issue and not a football discussion.
@jimnabby laid out the stats ....you just don't want to believe....... providing more facts is wasted on you... keep trusting your gut
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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@jimnabby laid out the stats ....you just don't want to believe....... providing more facts is wasted on you... keep trusting your gut
he provided one stat, without context, stat that it failed about 50% of the time, on 4th downs, without taking into account score, game situation, time left in the game, opponent, etc. unless you don;'t think any of those matter....then you know less than I suspect....

... it seems you are the one who is trusting your gut....go for it, because a geek in an article said or the other article that a BOT calculated its better to risk it, but then the stats show no NFL coach does it...yeah I trust a bot and a geek, but shouldn't trust Bilicheck....

so tell me genius... is Bilicheck wrong in your opinion for not going for it on 4th and 2 inside opponents territory? are you calling Billichek not a good coach?
 
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Nightman

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he provided one stat, without context, stat that it failed about 50% of the time, on 4th downs, without taking into account score, game situation, time left in the game, opponent, etc. unless you don;'t think any of those matter....then you know less than I suspect....

... it seems you are the one who is trusting your gut....go for it, because a geek in an article said or the other article that a BOT calculated its better to risk it, but then the stats show no NFL coach does it...yeah I trust a bot and a geek, but shouldn't trust Bilicheck....

so tell me genius... is Bilicheck wrong in your opinion for not going for it on 4th and 2 inside opponents territory? are you calling Billichek not a good coach?
If the geek is @AdamJT13 then I know you just stepped in it

If he says it smart to go for it then it is............and I did my own research on this for years...... I don't have to tutor you on basic math
 

JD_KaPow

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he provided one stat, without context, stat that it failed about 50% of the time, on 4th downs, without taking into account score, game situation, time left in the game, opponent, etc. unless you don;'t think any of those matter....then you know less than I suspect....

... it seems you are the one who is trusting your gut....go for it, because a geek in an article said or the other article that a BOT calculated its better to risk it, but then the stats show no NFL coach does it...yeah I trust a bot and a geek, but shouldn't trust Bilicheck....

so tell me genius... is Bilicheck wrong in your opinion for not going for it on 4th and 2 inside opponents territory? are you calling Billichek not a good coach?
Belichick is an excellent coach. Belichick is very conservative when it comes to 4th down decisions. Less conservative than most, but still more conservative than he should be (if winning football games is the only thing that matters). All those things are true at the same time.

Here's the data that is readily available that goes into developing these models:
Success rate on 3rd and 4th down for a given position on the field and yards to go for the first.
Expected points scored for a drive starting at any position on the field.

You can slice and dice that data in various different ways to get the best data set for your team, opponent, etc.
When you use this data to calculate expected results from punting or going for it, it becomes painfully obvious that coaches don't go for it enough. We're not just talking about cases where, well, it's a better-than-average defense, so things go the other way. We're talking about cases where the discrepancies are so huge that no information of that kind is going to change the result. The results are clear, and there's a huge amount of data out there to back it up. Coaches are risk averse.

They're risk averse for a reason. When you go for it on 4th, sometimes you won't make it. That's the nature of risk. And it doesn't matter how often you succeed: the press and the fans and the ownership will point to those times it failed and crucify you for it. Going for it on 4th down much more often will (a) win you more games in the long run, and (b) get people really mad at you whenever it doesn't work. Coaches would rather not deal with the ramifications of (b), so they don't do it.

There are other reasons they don't do it. They really deep down don't believe it, just like so many here don't. Teams should go for it on 4th and 1 from their own 20 yard line (yes, there are certainly game situation exceptions to this). But it feels really wrong to just about everyone, because that's not how the game has ever been played, and because people are by nature risk averse. Heck, it feels wrong to me, even though I know it's right. But this is where "common sense" and "conventional wisdom" and "football 101" fail us. We've seen it in any number of industries. We've seen it in baseball. The conventional wisdom turns out to be wrong when serious analysis is trained on a problem. Not always, by any means, but sometimes.
 

ConstantReboot

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It sure feels like Garrett punts a ton from the opposition's side of the field, and Sunday night was certainly no exception. We punted four times from Giants territory out of nine total drives. Those fourth downs:
  • 4th and 3 from the Giants 43
  • 4th and 2 from the Giants 44
  • 4th and 7 from the Giants 42
  • 4th and 20 from the Giants 42
The last drive is definitely a punting situation. I'm not sure what the numbers say about the 4th and 7, but I'd go for that with our offense. The first two should be automatic go for it situations unless there is a compelling game situation, which there was not at those points.

If were winning the battle on defense then its a good strategy to punt and make their offense go the length of the field.
 

Nightman

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Belichick is an excellent coach. Belichick is very conservative when it comes to 4th down decisions. Less conservative than most, but still more conservative than he should be (if winning football games is the only thing that matters). All those things are true at the same time.

Here's the data that is readily available that goes into developing these models:
Success rate on 3rd and 4th down for a given position on the field and yards to go for the first.
Expected points scored for a drive starting at any position on the field.

You can slice and dice that data in various different ways to get the best data set for your team, opponent, etc.
When you use this data to calculate expected results from punting or going for it, it becomes painfully obvious that coaches don't go for it enough. We're not just talking about cases where, well, it's a better-than-average defense, so things go the other way. We're talking about cases where the discrepancies are so huge that no information of that kind is going to change the result. The results are clear, and there's a huge amount of data out there to back it up. Coaches are risk averse.

They're risk averse for a reason. When you go for it on 4th, sometimes you won't make it. That's the nature of risk. And it doesn't matter how often you succeed: the press and the fans and the ownership will point to those times it failed and crucify you for it. Going for it on 4th down much more often will (a) win you more games in the long run, and (b) get people really mad at you whenever it doesn't work. Coaches would rather not deal with the ramifications of (b), so they don't do it.

There are other reasons they don't do it. They really deep down don't believe it, just like so many here don't. Teams should go for it on 4th and 1 from their own 20 yard line (yes, there are certainly game situation exceptions to this). But it feels really wrong to just about everyone, because that's not how the game has ever been played, and because people are by nature risk averse. Heck, it feels wrong to me, even though I know it's right. But this is where "common sense" and "conventional wisdom" and "football 101" fail us. We've seen it in any number of industries. We've seen it in baseball. The conventional wisdom turns out to be wrong when serious analysis is trained on a problem. Not always, by any means, but sometimes.
Post of the Week
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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If the geek is @AdamJT13 then I know you just stepped in it

If he says it smart to go for it then it is............and I did my own research on this for years...... I don't have to tutor you on basic math


he is a writer. a good writer with opinions whose primary job is to sell articles and clicks and he hasn't coached in the NFL....excuse me if I take what he says with a few grains of salt (a bag that is). so you are giving him more credit than Bilicheck? you keep avoiding the bilicheck question...

btw, read my response to you buddy below
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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Belichick is an excellent coach. Belichick is very conservative when it comes to 4th down decisions. Less conservative than most, but still more conservative than he should be (if winning football games is the only thing that matters). All those things are true at the same time.

Here's the data that is readily available that goes into developing these models:
Success rate on 3rd and 4th down for a given position on the field and yards to go for the first.
Expected points scored for a drive starting at any position on the field.

You can slice and dice that data in various different ways to get the best data set for your team, opponent, etc.
When you use this data to calculate expected results from punting or going for it, it becomes painfully obvious that coaches don't go for it enough. We're not just talking about cases where, well, it's a better-than-average defense, so things go the other way. We're talking about cases where the discrepancies are so huge that no information of that kind is going to change the result. The results are clear, and there's a huge amount of data out there to back it up. Coaches are risk averse.

They're risk averse for a reason. When you go for it on 4th, sometimes you won't make it. That's the nature of risk. And it doesn't matter how often you succeed: the press and the fans and the ownership will point to those times it failed and crucify you for it. Going for it on 4th down much more often will (a) win you more games in the long run, and (b) get people really mad at you whenever it doesn't work. Coaches would rather not deal with the ramifications of (b), so they don't do it.

There are other reasons they don't do it. They really deep down don't believe it, just like so many here don't. Teams should go for it on 4th and 1 from their own 20 yard line (yes, there are certainly game situation exceptions to this). But it feels really wrong to just about everyone, because that's not how the game has ever been played, and because people are by nature risk averse. Heck, it feels wrong to me, even though I know it's right. But this is where "common sense" and "conventional wisdom" and "football 101" fail us. We've seen it in any number of industries. We've seen it in baseball. The conventional wisdom turns out to be wrong when serious analysis is trained on a problem. Not always, by any means, but sometimes.

sorry, maybe I am about to go a little geek on you.........

first, this has nothing to do with fans, press, etc. coaches arent' really concerned about that stuff, that's for the fans and the press and the league....their concern is wins and losses.

there are several things with your hypothesis that are wrong, having done a lot of analysis in my career its quite important to have the right hypothesis and assumption with all the right factors, else you will arrive at wrong conclusions. given you are using statistics and a few vague studies to back up your assumptions lets actually take a look at what you just said...

your initial premise is that the NFL coaches are risk averse and conservative, completely dismissing that perhaps they are smart and through years of experimentation and knowledge they have learned that those risks don't pay....more on that later,

but lets play with your hypothesis, using your own assumption that coaches are conservative. That and that alone makes the stats you provide lopsided and biased, since the statistics for 4th downs point to a time when coaches weren't conservative, they wanted to take risks (which is not their nature as you said) and needed to go for it, in desperate situations, perhaps being too far behind, or no time left, etc. so the stats are not the normal stats of a coach, and all coaches (or most) going for it on a regular basis even in a specific location on the field (in this argument between the 40-mid field of the opponent). the stats are biased because by your own assertion, coaches are conservative and normally don't go for it on 4th down, which makes the 4th down stats biased by your own logic....

what would the stats look like if all or most coaches went for it all the time? do desperate team, have defenses play prevent defenses, where giving up yards, but killing the clock is the right tactic? why do conservative coaches, take risks all of a sudden? you point to those stats where those stats realistically and even scientifically are like a cream soup, with all ingredients (data) mixed in a blender. its all there, but not distinguishable by specifics of the situation, thus leading to incorrect conclusions and in this case, given the coaches are conservative, that data is very relevant to the stats...what would the data look like, if coaches went for it on 4th down all the time.... then again I am a data analyst, what do I know!!!!

but lets forget that argument for a second and look at your stats you used to make your argument...lets continue to play on your hypothesis using your own numbers.


based on what you provided, there is a 50% chance of success, and teams should risk it and go for it, because it leads to more points...great....but the other side of the coin you conveniently avoided to bring into the discussion, you will fail 50% of the time, thus leading to the other team scoring. you can't assume if I go for it, I make points and the other team getting the ball in great field position and they won't score!!! that would be too biased. then again you need that to make your point.........

and you also have to assume the other team will take the same chances when given short field and on my side of the field, they will take the same risks, go for it, and score 50% of the time, go down the 50% probability of conversion and you will end up even..... statistically speaking :) .........

so if 50% of the time I go for it, I make it and I score. the other 50% of the time I go for it, I don't make it and they score, doesn't that negate the whole thing? and that's what you used to argue that they should go for it, because it leads to scoring and given the same stats you used to argue your point, statisically, it breaks even!!!!

so as a coach, if statistically it breaks even, I don't win, and if my object is to win (more on that later), then I want to increase my chances of winning and statistic (tons and tons of it), show that if the opponent has a longer distance to drive, they have less chance of scoring and provide me with better field position and allow me better opportunity to score...... the stats are there, go check it out for yourself. that's why the collective of coaches, and their years of experience often speak of "field position battle". then again, they are football coaches, what do they know about football and statistics!!!

so going back to your original point, coaches being conservative....perhaps the collective of coaches, over the years, through thousands of games and millions of plays, and thousands of game situations has learned, that being too risky doesn't pay, specially if it breaks things even (btw, we have seen risky coaches come to NFL, trying to establish new way of doing things and they have failed...i.e. Kelly). Furthermore, the Romer paper, based its hypothesis on maximizing profit....yes, makes sense in a corporate wall street world, but in the world of football, which the professor totally missed (given he is a professor with limited knowledge of professional football), its not about maximizing profits, its a "binary" problem. you either win or lose. scores don't really matter. at the end of the day, they don't add up the scores to see who makes it to the playoffs, they add up the wins, and if you have 16 wins by one point, and a team has 9 losses by one point and 7 wins by total of 100 pts, the 7-9 team won't make it to the playoffs. they took chances, they scored and yet they are sitting home watching.....so in a world of binaries, being risk averse is smart, in a world of maximizing profits, taking risks makes sense.


I won't get into the argument of going for it on 4th and 7 as bkight13 initially commented on, GIVEN statiscally speaking based on what you provided, chances of converting and thus scoring are below 50% and in that case, you end up giving up more points, than scoring.....

so there is a reason, coaches like bilicheck, Holmgren, carroll, walsh, landry, McCarthy, Lombardi, etc. are successful, not for being conservative, but by being smart knowing that in football unnecessary risk taking doesn't statistically lead to binary wins and losses.
 
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JD_KaPow

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first, this has nothing to do with fans, press, etc. coaches arent' really concerned about that stuff, that's for the fans and the press and the league....their concern is wins and losses.
First disagreement. The coaches care very much about these things, because they care about keeping their jobs, and these things have an effect on whether they keep their jobs or not.
your initial premise is that the NFL coaches are risk averse and conservative, completely dismissing that perhaps they are smart and through years of experimentation and knowledge they have learned that those risks don't pay....more on that later,
Second disagreement. That's not my premise at all. That's my conclusion after looking at the data.
but lets play with your hypothesis, using your own assumption that coaches are conservative. That and that alone makes the stats you provide lopsided and biased, since the statistics for 4th downs point to a time when coaches weren't conservative, they wanted to take risks (which is not their nature as you said) and needed to go for it, in desperate situations, perhaps being too far behind, or no time left, etc. so the stats are not the normal stats of a coach, and all coaches (or most) going for it on a regular basis even in a specific location on the field (in this argument between the 40-mid field of the opponent). the stats are biased because by your own assertion, coaches are conservative and normally don't go for it on 4th down, which makes the 4th down stats biased by your own logic....

what would the stats look like if all or most coaches went for it all the time? do desperate team, have defenses play prevent defenses, where giving up yards, but killing the clock is the right tactic? why do conservative coaches, take risks all of a sudden? you point to those stats where those stats realistically and even scientifically are like a cream soup, with all ingredients (data) mixed in a blender. its all there, but not distinguishable by specifics of the situation, thus leading to incorrect conclusions and in this case, given the coaches are conservative, that data is very relevant to the stats...what would the data look like, if coaches went for it on 4th down all the time.... then again I am a data analyst, what do I know!!!!
You're completely misunderstanding the data. The data is almost entirely 3rd down data. Teams do go for it all the time on 3rd down, and generally the consequences are exactly the same: miss on third down and the drive is over.
based on what you provided, there is a 50% chance of success, and teams should risk it and go for it, because it leads to more points...great....but the other side of the coin you conveniently avoided to bring into the discussion, you will fail 50% of the time, thus leading to the other team scoring. you can't assume if I go for it, I make points and the other team getting the ball in great field position and they won't score!!! that would be too biased. then again you need that to make your point........
I have no idea where you get this idea. The other side of the coin isn't left out of the discussion: it's right there in the calculation. You have to calculate the probability and expected value of all outcomes: (1) go for it and make it, (2) go for it and fail, (3) punt. All of those are considered and factored into the cost-benefit analysis. That's the only way to do it properly. I suggest you go back and reread the example I gave above.
and you also have to assume the other team will take the same chances when given short field and on my side of the field, they will take the same risks, go for it, and score 50% of the time, go down the 50% probability of conversion and you will end up even..... statistically speaking :) .........
I have no idea what you're getting at here. Look, if going for it is better than punting, the first team to go for it a lot more will get an inherent advantage. If other teams start doing it, yes, that advantage will go away. But if other teams do it and you don't, you're at a disadvantage. What other teams do has no bearing on whether you should pursue the optimal strategy for you.
so if 50% of the time I go for it, I make it and I score. the other 50% of the time I go for it, I don't make it and they score, doesn't that negate the whole thing? and that's what you used to argue that they should go for it, because it leads to scoring and given the same stats you used to argue your point, statisically, it breaks even!!!!
First of all, I don't know where you're getting this 50%. The success rate varies widely with yards to go and position on the field. Secondly, failing to make does not automatically lead to the other team scoring (just like succeeding on 4th down doesn't automatically translate into your team scoring). You have to actually do the math and look at the expected points vs. position on the field to figure out which decision generates the more favorable outcome. If you can't be bothered to do the actual analysis, you can't just throw around statements like, "hey, it's 50-50 so it all breaks even!" and expect to be taken seriously.
so as a coach, if statistically it breaks even, I don't win, and if my object is to win (more on that later), then I want to increase my chances of winning and statistic (tons and tons of it), show that if the opponent has a longer distance to drive, they have less chance of scoring and provide me with better field position and allow me better opportunity to score...... the stats are there, go check it out for yourself. that's why the collective of coaches, and their years of experience often speak of "field position battle". then again, they are football coaches, what do they know about football and statistics!!!
Everything you're talking about is factored into the cost-benefit analysis. It seems like you didn't bother to read anything I wrote earlier. Again, it's the stats you're talking about are right there in the calculation. Of course punting is better than going for it and failing. But going for it and succeeding is way way better than a punt. You can't get the reward without taking the risk.
so going back to your original point, coaches being conservative....perhaps the collective of coaches, over the years, through thousands of games and millions of plays, and thousands of game situations has learned, that being too risky doesn't pay, specially if it breaks things even (btw, we have seen risky coaches come to NFL, trying to establish new way of doing things and they have failed...i.e. Kelly). Furthermore, the Romer paper, based its hypothesis on maximizing profit....yes, makes sense in a corporate wall street world, but in the world of football, which the professor totally missed (given he is a professor with limited knowledge of professional football), its not about maximizing profits, its a "binary" problem. you either win or lose. scores don't really matter. at the end of the day, they don't add up the scores to see who makes it to the playoffs, they add up the wins, and if you have 16 wins by one point, and a team has 9 losses by one point and 7 wins by total of 100 pts, the 7-9 team won't make it to the playoffs. they took chances, they scored and yet they are sitting home watching.....so in a world of binaries, being risk averse is smart, in a world of maximizing profits, taking risks makes sense.
This is exactly backward. Choosing the optimal 4th-down strategy will result in more wins, and getting blown out more often. It will result in fewer close losses. But as you say, the score doesn't matter: only wins and losses matter. And of course, the calculations change depending on game situation. If you're up by 4 points with 1 minute left and face a 4th down at your own 20 yard line, the punt is almost certainly the better strategy, because the clock must be taken into account.
I won't get into the argument of going for it on 4th and 7 as bkight13 initially commented on, GIVEN statiscally speaking based on what you provided, chances of converting and thus scoring are below 50% and in that case, you end up giving up more points, than scoring.....
That depends on what the success rate actually is, and the position on the field. You have to actually do the math to see whether going for it or punting is more favorable in that situation.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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First disagreement. The coaches care very much about these things, because they care about keeping their jobs, and these things have an effect on whether they keep their jobs or not.Second disagreement. [/quote}
most do it because that's part of their job and expcted from the league, otherwise you talk to most and they prefer not to. They do not make any decisions on the field, worrying about how to answer a question to a reporter post game. in terms of making in game decisions, they don't care. they care about winning. win and nothing else matters. lose and regardless of how good you are with the media, you get fired.

That's not my premise at all. That's my conclusion after looking at the data.You're completely misunderstanding the data. The data is almost entirely 3rd down data. Teams do go for it all the time on 3rd down, and generally the consequences are exactly the same: miss on third down and the drive is over.I have no idea where you get this idea.
the argument is about going for it on 4th downs. 3rd downs is a whole different story and almost 100% of the time, every team goes for it on 3rd down...why not? but gambling on 4th down is a whole other story.

The other side of the coin isn't left out of the discussion: it's right there in the calculation. You have to calculate the probability and expected value of all outcomes: (1) go for it and make it, (2) go for it and fail, (3) punt. All of those are considered and factored into the cost-benefit analysis.
you based your arguments through out on going for it, leads to more scoring for the gambler, the other side of the cvoin is that when you fail, you give the ball to the other team. its a turn over and if in mid field, then you are giving up great filed position, further enhancing the opportunity for the other team to score....

thus, the calculations given 50% probability of success, would cancel each other. 50% fail. 50% success, where failure leads to scoring for the other team and success leads to scoring by your team. again, the focus is on 4th down, specifically in the 40-miod field area of the opponent as the original poster is arguing....

That's the only way to do it properly. I suggest you go back and reread the example I gave above.I have no idea what you're getting at here. Look, if going for it is better than punting, the first team to go for it a lot more will get an inherent advantage. If other teams start doing it, yes, that advantage will go away.
then now, you are adding another parameter to the equation. you are arguing that we should go for it, but the other team is not going for it....you are creating a small little pigeon hole to fit the case in to argue that it stands..... still yet..... if you turn the ball over in mid field area, then you are giving a huge advantage to the other team. all the data, from years and years of NFL play show that the longer the drive, the lesser the chance of scoring. thus giving the opposition good field position will lead to them scoring...if your probability is about 50%, then half the time you are going to end up giving up a score. why is that hard to understand?

But if other teams do it and you don't, you're at a disadvantage. What other teams do has no bearing on whether you should pursue the optimal strategy for you.First of all, I don't know where you're getting this 50%.
you are making a whole bunch of assumptions and now, changing your premise that we would be the ones that go for it and should go for it most of the time, while other coaches won't so we get an advantage!!!! yet we fail about half the time (yes yes yes, depending on distance to go, the longer the distance, the lower the probability of success). the optimal strategy is to increase your chance of winning. going for it on 4th down, actually is ineffective. punting, and pinning the other team inside their redzone, forcing them to drive the length of the field is more effective, as data, years and years of data prove the shorter the distance to drive for a score, the higher the probability of scoring.

the 50% is from statistics you shared and statistics bkight13 is throwing around. going for it on 4th and 7, inside opponents field between the 40-50 yards line with less than 40% chance of success based on available data, would be stupid, specially on first series of the game.

The success rate varies widely with yards to go and position on the field.

agreed.


Secondly, failing to make does not automatically lead to the other team scoring (just like succeeding on 4th down doesn't automatically translate into your team scoring). You have to actually do the math and look at the expected points vs. position on the field to figure out which decision generates the more favorable outcome. If you can't be bothered to do the actual analysis, you can't just throw around statements like, "hey, it's 50-50 so it all breaks even!" and expect to be taken seriously.
I don't disagree. the studies shown, indicate the % of success on 4th downs, based on distance to go....yes the longer the distance the lower the probability. it also argued that the probability of y ou scoring if you go for it on 4th down is higher.... agreed, there is no guarantee, as each series, each play differ, but the study's were looking at over all statistics and success rates and probability of scoring. even your own little sampling of statistics, showed around a 50% rate of success. regardless, do that math and you will see....given what ever probability of scoring on a drive, and probability of converting a fourth down, it will even out....there is no guarantee the other team will score, there is no guarantee they won't.

again, simply stating that going for it on 4th downs, increases your chances of success and since NFL coaches don't seen to go for it, they are conservative, would be wrong conclusion. they don't go for it, because it doesn't make sense and it doesn't increase your chances of WINNING.

Everything you're talking about is factored into the cost-benefit analysis. It seems like you didn't bother to read anything I wrote earlier. Again, it's the stats you're talking about are right there in the calculation. Of course punting is better than going for it and failing. But going for it and succeeding is way way better than a punt. You can't get the reward without taking the risk.
again, the other side of the coin, once again you ignored. ...... going for it and failing...... is much worse than punting., no different than punting is worse than going for it and failing..... and failing may lead to other team scoring as much as succeeding leads to you scoring....so what are the chances of success? the goal is not to score more points in a game, while giving up more points...the goal is to win and taking appropriate risks to lead to winning.....

This is exactly backward. Choosing the optimal 4th-down strategy will result in more wins, and getting blown out more often. It will result in fewer close losses. But as you say, the score doesn't matter: only wins and losses matter. And of course, the calculations change depending on game situation. If you're up by 4 points with 1 minute left and face a 4th down at your own 20 yard line, the punt is almost certainly the better strategy, because the clock must be taken into account. That depends on what the success rate actually is, and the position on the field. You have to actually do the math to see whether going for it or punting is more favorable in that situation.

then why the argument that going for it on 4th downs leads to scoring more and more success, but its not done because coaches are conservative (circular conclusion on your part, they are conservative thus they don't; go for it on 4th downs,vs. they dont' go for it, thus they must be conservative)....

the argument is the current approach, thru years of experimentation is optimal, that punting on 4th downs leads to more success than going for it more often. it doesn't mean you will be more successful, taking one game example is not enough, but over time, it evens out, you may score more, but will give up more scores as a result. because football, is binary, in its outcome, being "conservative' is actually the smart thing to do, taking risks will lead to more losses in general.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Everything you just asked about is discussed in my post and explicitly included in my calculations you quoted. That's all taken into account.

You know what the very best way to keep them from scoring is? Don't just give them the ball by punting, when you have a great chance to keep the ball away from them by getting a first down.

That you are taking things in a vacuum is not taken into consideration at all. If you are going to insist on looking at individual samples then you should at the very least look at the conditions of said samples.

1) Our OL was having issues sustaining blocks. That made our run game at best inconsistent.
2) Dak's accuracy was erratic. The narrative that he settled down does not pan out. He missed throws to Dez on an out as well as to TWill and Beasley in the middle of the field later in the game beyond what he did in that first trip into the red zone.
3) The Giants defense was playing outstanding. They were pressuring Dak and getting off blocks.
4) The Giant's absolutely could not sustain drives on our defense. The one that they managed was saved by a 3rd down stop that was converted by a boneheaded personal foul penalty.

Given that last point completely flies in the face of your fixation of your preferred outcome that you display in your last paragraph. How do you gift them points? By giving them the ball at midfield.
 

Nightman

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so is JTAdams smarter than bilicheck? you seem to side with him more than bilicheck......

try to keep up son
Don't call me son and stop replying to my posts.......you refuse to listen to anyone so go away and enjoy your Belichick doll
 

JD_KaPow

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That you are taking things in a vacuum is not taken into consideration at all. If you are going to insist on looking at individual samples then you should at the very least look at the conditions of said samples.

1) Our OL was having issues sustaining blocks. That made our run game at best inconsistent.
2) Dak's accuracy was erratic. The narrative that he settled down does not pan out. He missed throws to Dez on an out as well as to TWill and Beasley in the middle of the field later in the game beyond what he did in that first trip into the red zone.
3) The Giants defense was playing outstanding. They were pressuring Dak and getting off blocks.
4) The Giant's absolutely could not sustain drives on our defense. The one that they managed was saved by a 3rd down stop that was converted by a boneheaded personal foul penalty.

Given that last point completely flies in the face of your fixation of your preferred outcome that you display in your last paragraph. How do you gift them points? By giving them the ball at midfield.
You're risk averse, I get it.

Zeke ran the ball 13 times in the first half. He gained 3+ yards on 12 of those runs. That's not inconsistent.
We dominated the game but were still up only 6-0 until nearly halftime. That's the downside of the risk-averse approach: you let the other team hang around. You have to look at both sides of the coin.
Finally, sure, sometimes game and matchup conditions make the case to go the other way. But not every time, which is what you have to believe if you think coaches are not too conservative. The right answer probably isn't what the various models show. But it certainly isn't what teams are doing today. As I said, I expect we'll see something quite different 20 years from now.
 

JD_KaPow

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the argument is about going for it on 4th downs. 3rd downs is a whole different story and almost 100% of the time, every team goes for it on 3rd down...why not? but gambling on 4th down is a whole other story.
Yes, but we were talking about the success frequency data. 3rd down success frequency data is relevant for 4th downs.
you based your arguments through out on going for it, leads to more scoring for the gambler, the other side of the cvoin is that when you fail, you give the ball to the other team. its a turn over and if in mid field, then you are giving up great filed position, further enhancing the opportunity for the other team to score....
Look, if you simply refuse to read what I've said and look at how the calculations are done, I can't help you. This is all included in the models, as I've said and shown many many times.
thus, the calculations given 50% probability of success, would cancel each other. 50% fail. 50% success, where failure leads to scoring for the other team and success leads to scoring by your team. again, the focus is on 4th down, specifically in the 40-miod field area of the opponent as the original poster is arguing....
This is not how it works. Imagine this scenario. I offer you a bet. We flip a coin. If it comes up heads, I give you $100 (going for it and succeeding). If it comes up tails, you give me $5 (going for it and failing). You can take me up on this, or decline (punt), in which case no money changes hands. Obviously, in most cases you should take me up on my offer, EVEN THOUGH if it comes up tails, that's worse for you than declining to take the bet. It's because the reward is better than the penalty. Keeping the ball with a fresh set of downs is way more of a reward than giving up an extra 20-30 yards of field position is a penalty. So no, they don't cancel each other out. Punting is bad, going for it not making it is somewhat worse, but going for it and making it is incredibly good. It's not symmetric.
if you turn the ball over in mid field area, then you are giving a huge advantage to the other team. all the data, from years and years of NFL play show that the longer the drive, the lesser the chance of scoring. thus giving the opposition good field position will lead to them scoring...if your probability is about 50%, then half the time you are going to end up giving up a score. why is that hard to understand?
Because it's completely wrong. If your probability is 50%, then half the time you're going to give the other team the ball at around their 40 instead of around their 10-20. Yeah, that's bad, but you're pretending that they'll always score form the 40 and never score from the 10, but that's not remotely close to true.
again, the other side of the coin, once again you ignored. ...... going for it and failing...... is much worse than punting., no different than punting is worse than going for it and failing..... and failing may lead to other team scoring as much as succeeding leads to you scoring....so what are the chances of success? the goal is not to score more points in a game, while giving up more points...the goal is to win and taking appropriate risks to lead to winning.....
And this is where I give up on this argument. You refuse to read what's been written. I have not ignored the other side of the coin, as I've said and shown over and over again, but you just keep repeating this false argument that we're not accounting for it. What happens when you go for it and fail is a fundamental part of the calculation. I'm done here.
 
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