Elite QB + No Team or Elite Team + No QB

[Shango]

I've been watching you guys fight for days...not many are making too much sense. Those that are making sense know that we were caught in a "Catch22" due to bad management.

We could have either moved forward with what we believe is an elite QB and then use bottom of the barrel free agent acquisitions and late round draft picks to shore up the holes on the team as well as provide roster depth.

or

We could have started to build this team from the inside out. Building a running game and then a defensive line that can stop the run/rush the passer. Then pick a QB that fits what you wanna do on offense.

We chose the first option. I hate it but I get it.

I hate it because...
I've personally seen several teams without an elite QB win it all and have yet to see an elite QB win the Super Bowl without a team to support him.

We've seen the Giants(Phil Simms), Bears(Jim McM), Commanders(Mark Rypien, Doug Williams), Ravens(Dilfer,Flacco??), and Tampa Bay(Brad Johnson)...Some could even make a case for Pittsburgh(Big Ben) and Eli's Giants.

But I've never seen an elite QB take an average team to the Super Bowl and win it...it's too hard.

This is exactly what we are asking Romo to do...:bang2:


I get it because...
I was driving the "Trade Romo for picks" bandwagon but who knows??? What would Jerry and those guys have done with those draft picks? Maybe Jerry would have went back to baseball fields to find us a new QB...we don't know how bad it could have gotten.

Through this somehow though...we gotta find the sunshine.

 

[JBS]

Elite QB... No doubt about it

 

[Shango]

Admins...messed up the title...it should read "Elite QB + No Team or Elite Team + No QB" Sorry...

 

[cowboysooner]

New Orleans was the definition of a great qb leading an average team to a Super Bowl and they came very close when Alex smith upset them the next year.

Indy was average too. The patriots that have been making deep playoff runs the past few years have been pretty bad defensively.

The odds are against any one or two teams winning the Super Bowl but the key is to get in the tourney every year to give yourself a shot.

The NFC is so good that it makes the whole process a crap shoot.

 

[Shango]

New Orleans was the definition of a great qb leading an average team to a Super Bowl and they came very close when Alex smith upset them the next year.

Indy was average too. The patriots that have been making deep playoff runs the past few years have been pretty bad defensively.

The odds are against any one or two teams winning the Super Bowl but the key is to get in the tourney every year to give yourself a shot.

The NFC is so good that it makes the whole process a crap shoot.

New Orleans and Indy both had monster offensive lines to protect them...For the "Greatest QB of our time" (Manning) to only get it done once...speaks VOLUMES. Brees showed you last year what an elite QB can do without necessary "team" things...like coaching.

It's a TEAM game and you need a TEAM to win it...Romo has nothing compared to what those guys had in protection and coaching...not even close.

 

[Sarge]

New Orleans was the definition of a great qb leading an average team to a Super Bowl and they came very close when Alex smith upset them the next year.

Indy was average too. The patriots that have been making deep playoff runs the past few years have been pretty bad defensively.

The odds are against any one or two teams winning the Super Bowl but the key is to get in the tourney every year to give yourself a shot.

The NFC is so good that it makes the whole process a crap shoot.

Above is true... and Aaron Rodgers took a barely above average Packer team with a horrible OL to the SB and won it. No running game to boot.

There have been quite a few mediocre teams to have won it all in the cap era quite frankly.

 

[Nation]

Please look into the Defensive Passer Rating (a top 5 statistic as far as correlation with winning) of the Saints, Packers, Patriots, and Colts teams that won Super Bowls before calling them average. It just isn't close to being accurate.

 

[Szczepanik]

I would rather have an average QB, but a great team around him.

Im not going to say they are average but look how seattle is built. Rookie QB comes in, and they get to spend all of that money on a team surrounding him.

Baltimore with Trent Dilfer? The Bucs with Brad Johnson? Eli with the Giants? Not saying the Giants were a great team, but that defensive line is the only reason they won that thing.

I believe a great team can carry a bus driver.

 

[dragon_mikal]

People seem to forget that both the Packers and Saints had defenses that forced quite a few turnovers.

If anything this last SB should have shown what a more complete team can do when compared to a team with a great QB. Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady were all sitting at home come SB Sunday.

They are all three great but you put a defense out there that can put their heads in the turf and they all turn into regular guys pretty quick.

 

[Tabascocat]

Of course I would take an average QB + 52(44) above average players with good chemistry over an elite QB and a sub-par team.

Here in lies the problem.....I don't trust JJ to build a good team around an average QB, I suspect it would be more of the same resulting in the same records, if not worse.

I'll take my chances with Romo and hope the proper lines are built and stabilized.

 

[cowboysooner]

Please look into the Defensive Passer Rating (a top 5 statistic as far as correlation with winning) of the Saints, Packers, Patriots, and Colts teams that won Super Bowls before calling them average. It just isn't close to being accurate.

The Saints personnel was average, if that, on defense. They had a statistically anomalous year with respect to turnovers that carried into the Super Bowl. Part of that was gambling Greg Williams, part of that was the huge pressure Drew Brees' greatness put on the other teams to take risk and a large measure was pure luck because it did not happen the year before or the year after with similar defensive personnel and the year after with better offensive personnel (Graham and Sproles same line).

The Packers had a very good defense the year they won from both a yardage and turnover perspective. They were not as good the year before or sense. The Patriots teams that actually won (especially the last 2) were very complete teams with great defenses and poor offensive weapons. That is different from the Welker forward teams. The Colts team that won the Super Bowl was probably the worst of several years of Colts teams- just the Patriots took a step back and they got to play Rex Grossman for a Lombardi.

When you take something that is measured over 16 games (small sample size) that is highly levered to interceptions (which can be anomalies themselves) like defensive passer rating and apply it to the playoffs and "any given Sunday" you are going to get tons of random noise that does not necessarily make sense.

That is until Peter King comes down from the mountain behind the scenes and tells you the narrative of how and why it happened and what "smart teams" do. Also he will to you where to get coffee in Baltimore, useful.

 

[Shango]

Of course I would take an average QB + 52(44) above average players with good chemistry over an elite QB and a sub-par team.

Here in lies the problem.....I don't trust JJ to build a good team around an average QB, I suspect it would be more of the same resulting in the same records, if not worse.

I'll take my chances with Romo and hope the proper lines are built and stabilized.

Agree 100%...If we had a Ravens type FO I would differ...but...

it is what it is.

 

[DFWJC]

We could have either moved forward with what we believe is an elite QB and then use bottom of the barrel free agent acquisitions and late round draft picks to shore up the holes on the team as well as provide roster depth.

or

We could have started to build this team from the inside out. Building a running game and then a defensive line that can stop the run/rush the passer. Then pick a QB that fits what you wanna do on offense.

Dallas has a 1st round pick
Dallas has a 2nd round pick
Dallas has a 3rd round pick
.
.


Those are not late round draft picks

 

[DFWJC]

Please look into the Defensive Passer Rating (a top 5 statistic as far as correlation with winning) of the Saints, Packers, Patriots, and Colts teams that won Super Bowls before calling them average. It just isn't close to being accurate.

I know
People keep saying that without looking up the facts.

 

[Shango]

The Saints personnel was average, if that, on defense. They had a statistically anomalous year with respect to turnovers that carried into the Super Bowl. Part of that was gambling Greg Williams, part of that was the huge pressure Drew Brees' greatness put on the other teams to take risk and a large measure was pure luck because it did not happen the year before or the year after with similar defensive personnel and the year after with better offensive personnel (Graham and Sproles same line).

The Packers had a very good defense the year they won from both a yardage and turnover perspective. They were not as good the year before or sense. The Patriots teams that actually won (especially the last 2) were very complete teams with great defenses and poor offensive weapons. That is different from the Welker forward teams. The Colts team that won the Super Bowl was probably the worst of several years of Colts teams- just the Patriots took a step back and they got to play Rex Grossman for a Lombardi.

When you take something that is measured over 16 games (small sample size) that is highly levered to interceptions (which can be anomalies themselves) like defensive passer rating and apply it to the playoffs and "any given Sunday" you are going to get tons of random noise that does not necessarily make sense.

That is until Peter King comes down from the mountain behind the scenes and tells you the narrative of how and why it happened and what "smart teams" do. Also he will to you where to get coffee in Baltimore, useful.

I'll bite on the Packers, Saints, and Colts....

First of all Romo is NOT on par with those guys. That is just fact...if you believe otherwise then you are kindly booted out of this conversation.

Team assets for them that we don't have.

Coaching: Green Bay has always had a one of the leagues best coaching staffs. and Indy had Tony Dungy and the Saints had Sean Payton...all three staff well above our current staff.

Offensive Line: Green Bay only gave up 31 sacks to Rodgers (7 more to Flynn) Indy only gave up 21 to Manning and the Saints 20 for Brees....I would LOVE to have that type Protection.

As far as Defense...no...none of the teams had stellar defenses but their stats were inflated due to their own explosive offenses. But none were void of talent

Bottom line...even if these QB put their entire teams on their backs...it's only three times and those particular QBs are still struggling to put a team around them to get their 2nd. (No line in GB, Saints fell apart, Broncos still buying top FA WRs to help Peyton)

....and there are tons of examples where complete teams took the ring.

 

[Shango]

Dallas has a 1st round pick
Dallas has a 2nd round pick
Dallas has a 3rd round pick
.
.

Oh...we only have 3 holes on this team...well it's all good then! My bad.

 

[DFWJC]

Dallas has a 1st round pick
Dallas has a 2nd round pick
Dallas has a 3rd round pick
.
.

Oh...we only have 3 holes on this team...well it's all good then! My bad.

:laugh2:
I hear you.
But if they add a starting guard, a starting safety and another oline or dline player in the 1st three picks, they are well on their way.

 

[Shango]

Dallas has a 1st round pick
Dallas has a 2nd round pick
Dallas has a 3rd round pick
.
.


Those are not late round draft picks

Let me not be sarcastic...We are looking for Church and Matt to be the answers at S...bottom of the line FA's Peprah, Frampton and add Will Allen's 0 ints since 06 to the mix. Sims and Durant were not wanted by Detroit which scares the heck out of me. We need Crawford to be big...although he was pick 81...I do consider that kinda late. Livings and Mac were not wanted at all by their former teams.

...we are just getting players to fill in spots...I hate that.

 

[MonsterD]

Let me not be sarcastic...We are looking for Church and Matt to be the answers at S...bottom of the line FA's Peprah, Frampton and add Will Allen's 0 ints since 06 to the mix. Sims and Durant were not wanted by Detroit which scares the heck out of me. We need Crawford to be big...although he was pick 81...I do consider that kinda late. Livings and Mac were not wanted at all by their former teams.

...we are just getting players to fill in spots...I hate that.

But drafting and FA can't yield an all-pro at every position. A lot of teams win Superbowls with a lot more average starters than an average starting QB, it is not a black and white issue.

 

[HoosierCowboy]

two words: Terry Bradshaw

HOF QB with average numbers, heck he was even benched for a drug abuser during his career but he played on great teams