Elite QB + No Team or Elite Team + No QB

[ufcrules1]

As good as Rodgers is he has 1 ring, why has he not done as Troy did? In large part because Troy had HOF'ers on both sides of the ball. No matter how good Rodgers is he can only win if his team plays better football. This is why they got bumped by the Giants not because Eli is the better QB it is NY was the better team.

But even Troy and the Cowboys found it hard to win if other parts were out of the lineup. Funny when Emmitt or Irvin were out of the lineup the Cowboys record was not good. Troy did not forget how to play but his success depended on others he has said it many times himself.

I'm not disagreeing with you... EVERYONE has to play their part for the team to be successful. Only in rare instances can a team still dominate regardless of a really weak link.. like Dilfer in 2000.

However, if one player decides to have a meltdown game(s), he can pretty much burn the whole team if he is in a position to touch the football on every single offensive snap.

 

[ufcrules1]

This is exactly now I feel. We're paying Romo like he's in that first tier; he's not. And the amount that we're paying him drastically reduces Dallas's chances to surround him with the talent that he needs to win. The thing is, the Cowboys have (incorrectly, IMO) evaluated Romo as a first tier guy (hence Jerry's comments about being able to get away with a weaker OL). So I get the logic, just not the evaluation.

Wow... freaking dead on. Nice!

The thing is this team does have some pieces. People are going to think I'm, crazy, but this team isn't (or wasn't least; not sure about the 4-3) that far away from Seattle or even SF defensively.

Wait... wut? I have never seen someone be so right, and then so wrong in the same post.

 

[cowboysooner]

This is exactly now I feel. We're paying Romo like he's in that first tier; he's not. And the amount that we're paying him drastically reduces Dallas's chances to surround him with the talent that he needs to win.

The thing is, the Cowboys have (incorrectly, IMO) evaluated Romo as a first tier guy (hence Jerry's comments about being able to get away with a weaker OL). So I get the logic, just not the evaluation.

The thing is this team does have some pieces. People are going to think I'm, crazy, but this team isn't (or wasn't least; not sure about the 4-3) that far away from Seattle or even SF defensively.

If it were me, I would have kept the 3-4. I would have dealt Romo for some futures, and invested heavily in the OL this year. Picked up a decent RB in the draft and tried to built my team around that defence and the running game in 2013, with an eye to drafting a QB in 2014 (should be a deep class).

With any luck we would have fielded a winner sooner rather than later.

Alas, it's not to be.

We aren't paying Romo like he is in that first tier. The Ravens are paying Flacco like he is (20mm $62/3 yrs & 80/4 years). Peyton (19.6mm / 3 years), Brees (20mm), Rodgers ($21mm ++).

Romo is getting similar money as Schaub and I would rather have Romo. Stafford and Ryan will both get more than Romo.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

I'll bite on the Packers, Saints, and Colts....

First of all Romo is NOT on par with those guys. That is just fact...if you believe otherwise then you are kindly booted out of this conversation.

You're talking nonsense again. If Romo has a Super Bowl win or if he eventually gets a decent coach, he'll be right up there with those guys. You say he's not on par with those guys, then give reason that help him as to why he's not. In any case, Brees and Rogers are damn good, but Romo has never really benefited by a decent HC for any substantial period of time, nor has he ever really had a stellar line. In terms of various numbers, though, how could you not say he has similar abilities? In my view, Rogers is the best NFL quarterback. But Romo is right on his heels..same with Brees.

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm not disagreeing with you... EVERYONE has to play their part for the team to be successful. Only in rare instances can a team still dominate regardless of a really weak link.. like Dilfer in 2000.

However, if one player decides to have a meltdown game(s), he can pretty much burn the whole team if he is in a position to touch the football on every single offensive snap.

True and even some of the so called elite have had those game in post season. If I did not see as many holes on offense as I do then I would join you about Romo but given the facts that his OL has been poor WR at times not knowing what rout they were running and missing games with little to no depth behind and no running game to lean on hurts. Defense who can't hold a lead more times than not. Heck there have been many meaningful games where Romo has put the team in position to win only to have the other team march down the field to beat us.

No one has disputed Romo game vs Washington but that is one game

 

[Nation]

This is exactly now I feel. We're paying Romo like he's in that first tier; he's not. And the amount that we're paying him drastically reduces Dallas's chances to surround him with the talent that he needs to win.

The real number to the contract is 4 years and $65 million. That is the commensurate salary for the tier of quarterback that Romo is in, and the way the market is going will likely be a bargain in another year or two.

 

[Shango]

You're talking nonsense again. If Romo has a Super Bowl win or if he eventually gets a decent coach, he'll be right up there with those guys. You say he's not on par with those guys, then give reason that help him as to why he's not. In any case, Brees and Rogers are damn good, but Romo has never really benefited by a decent HC for any substantial period of time, nor has he ever really had a stellar line. In terms of various numbers, though, how could you not say he has similar abilities? In my view, Rogers is the best NFL quarterback. But Romo is right on his heels..same with Brees.

There it is...you are excused.

Of all people I knew you would not disappoint.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

There it is...you are excused.

Of all people I knew you would not disappoint.

Yeah, I liked how you did that. The whole issue, though, is you can't really give me any good reasons why that is. Further, you create sort of a straw man and don't let Romo into the conversation of elite because of you're personal bias. For whatever reason, maybe you've dissed him on your little radio show or whatever. Either way, you saying it doesn't really make it correct. I'm not comparing Brees to Romo or Rogers to Romo, but each of those guys deserves respect in their own right. You can't say that Romo can't compete with those guys and still sound intelligent. Not that I was accusing you of that anyway, though, Shango.

 

[ufcrules1]

True and even some of the so called elite have had those game in post season. If I did not see as many holes on offense as I do then I would join you about Romo but given the facts that his OL has been poor WR at times not knowing what rout they were running and missing games with little to no depth behind and no running game to lean on hurts. Defense who can't hold a lead more times than not. Heck there have been many meaningful games where Romo has put the team in position to win only to have the other team march down the field to beat us.

No one has disputed Romo game vs Washington but that is one game

Honestly the only difference between you and I regarding Romo is I think Romo is part of the problem here along with the Oline, Dline, coaching, GM, etc and you think everyone else is the problem. Nothing more than opinions from us both.

I think you are right, our team has a lot of holes and we need to fix those holes but how do we do that when the GM himself thinks Tony can overcome a below average line and the defense not doing enough? We have holes all over the place right now. How are we going to improve enough for Tony to be successful? How are we going to drastically improve the team when we are practically broke?

We have to make tough decisions to rebuild this team but we can't because we hold on to players for too long and over pay them sealing our fate in mediocrity.

 

[ufcrules1]

You're talking nonsense again. If Romo has a Super Bowl win or if he eventually gets a decent coach, he'll be right up there with those guys. You say he's not on par with those guys, then give reason that help him as to why he's not. In any case, Brees and Rogers are damn good, but Romo has never really benefited by a decent HC for any substantial period of time, nor has he ever really had a stellar line. In terms of various numbers, though, how could you not say he has similar abilities? In my view, Rogers is the best NFL quarterback. But Romo is right on his heels..same with Brees.

 

[ufcrules1]

The real number to the contract is 4 years and $65 million. That is the commensurate salary for the tier of quarterback that Romo is in, and the way the market is going will likely be a bargain in another year or two.

You are right, he is worth that much... just not to us IMO. Maybe a team like Buffalo, Jacksonville, NYJ, Cardinals, etc.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

IF we had got someone to trade for Romo and give us good value, then fine. I don't know that anyone was busting down the door to do that AND give him a big money salary. Would have taken a first rounder plus to get me to sign off on it.

Second thing is that most of you don't trust Jones to build a complete roster, so why would you take the one good thing that he does have away? I think we have a better chance of getting lucky with a couple players in the draft or of vets having career years than we do of having Jones find a decent QB in the near future AND develop a great surrounding cast.

Remember we got Michael Irvin, Troy AIkman, Emmitt Smith and Russell Maryland the the draft just before JJ arrived and the three years after. That's three Hall of Famers and one pretty damned good guy. The chances of us getting 3 Hall of Famers in three consecutive drafts? Almost nil.

Even at our worst last year, which is what we were when you factor all the injuries in, we were an average team. I think Durant gives us one starter. I hope we can get 2-3 out of the draft or at least consistent contributors, and I still am hoping we pick up another one in free agency (still don't know why Moore isn't on this roster yet.

This team is not bargain basement like many want us to believe. Some good fortune on the health front, a solid draft and maybe another savvy free agency pickup or two and there is no reason we can't compete.

Seems like a lot of people don't want to hear that.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

Honestly the only difference between you and I regarding Romo is I think Romo is part of the problem here along with the Oline, Dline, coaching, GM, etc and you think everyone else is the problem. Nothing more than opinions from us both.

I think you are right, our team has a lot of holes and we need to fix those holes but how do we do that when the GM himself thinks Tony can overcome a below average line and the defense not doing enough? We have holes all over the place right now. How are we going to improve enough for Tony to be successful? How are we going to drastically improve the team when we are practically broke?

We have to make tough decisions to rebuild this team but we can't because we hold on to players for too long and over pay them sealing our fate in mediocrity.

Romo is part of the problem? How long have you been a fan? My guess is you're not old enough to understand what it's like to have a real problem. I like how these kids get on here, watch a few games and somehow they've become football geniuses.

Romo is the solution.

We don't have a line that can pass protect, so brilliant minds like you want to throw in a new guy and do things such as trade Romo for future picks. I hope we're drafting RGIII, because whoever it is will have to run for their lives back there. One thing Romo excels at is evading pass rushers. But you wouldn't be able to see that, since he's part of the problem. You'll see Romo getting sacked, hurrying reads, et cetera, as his problem.

This sort of short-sightedness in posters like you and Shango really show the lack of real understanding for what's going on out there. The guy has shattered touchdowns per season record and accomplished many other things. Quarterbacks like Romo don't grow on trees, but you'll say he's not elite and in a subpar category because of things out of his control, when you readily admit there are other problems on the team.

If you don't know the game, at least know your history.

 

[dragon_mikal]

So if Tony Romo won the SB this year and Drew Brees missed the playoffs...again...you wouldn't put them in the same category? I think you would because even though I disagree with you at times I know you're a smart enough guy to know whatever choker status Romo has thus accumulated would be gone like a wisp of smoke.

IMHO Drew Brees and Tony Romo are far more comparible than some here would like to admit. One just happens to have one of the better HCs in the game while the other...well...doesn't.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

So if Tony Romo won the SB this year and Drew Brees missed the playoffs...again...you wouldn't put them in the same category? I think you would because even though I disagree with you at times I know you're a smart enough guy to know whatever choker status Romo has thus accumulated would be gone like a wisp of smoke.

IMHO Drew Brees and Tony Romo are far more comparible than some here would like to admit. One just happens to have one of the better HCs in the game while the other...well...doesn't.

You got it. I'm sure others get it too. I'm not really high on the Cowboys lately, but at least we still have Romo. Some of the bottom-of-the-barrel fanbase want to trade Romo for picks, etc. I get a laugh out of some of the things people come up with to justify their ignorance, such as fallacious thinking and red herring arguments. The OP is the king at it. I understand the emotion behind the game, but there's a lot more to it than that.

 

[Shango]

IF we had got someone to trade for Romo and give us good value, then fine. I don't know that anyone was busting down the door to do that AND give him a big money salary. Would have taken a first rounder plus to get me to sign off on it.

Second thing is that most of you don't trust Jones to build a complete roster, so why would you take the one good thing that he does have away? I think we have a better chance of getting lucky with a couple players in the draft or of vets having career years than we do of having Jones find a decent QB in the near future AND develop a great surrounding cast.

Remember we got Michael Irvin, Troy AIkman, Emmitt Smith and Russell Maryland the the draft just before JJ arrived and the three years after. That's three Hall of Famers and one pretty damned good guy. The chances of us getting 3 Hall of Famers in three consecutive drafts? Almost nil.

Even at our worst last year, which is what we were when you factor all the injuries in, we were an average team. I think Durant gives us one starter. I hope we can get 2-3 out of the draft or at least consistent contributors, and I still am hoping we pick up another one in free agency (still don't know why Moore isn't on this roster yet.

This team is not bargain basement like many want us to believe. Some good fortune on the health front, a solid draft and maybe another savvy free agency pickup or two and there is no reason we can't compete.

Seems like a lot of people don't want to hear that.

^

This is exactly what I'm trying to subscribe too...

Personal issues I'm having.

1. Romo - I'm with UFCrules and think he has some issues that hurt us...this is hard to get past. It really is.

2. Jones building a Monster - Not without another football mind to help him out. He did great with Bill Parcells and Jimmy Johnson and also with Garrett to a point. But now that he's pulled most of Garrett's power...I'm not sure he can make the best decisions. So I agree...why take away the one thing that gives us a little hope.

3. Jones finding the final pieces now - See above.

4. "getting lucky with a couple players in the draft or of vets having career years" - I agree again, but this is a LOT to ask for.

5. This team is NOT bargain basement at all...However there are major question marks on almost every one of our star players...Romo, Austin(inj), Dez(character), Tyron(turning the corner to elite LT?), Ratliff(inj), Ware(shoulder/neck), Lee(inj), Carter (inj). They all need to contribute heavily this year for us to win. Again, possible...but...has it ever happened?

So I'm trying to subscribe but for me to flat out ignore all of those issues...It's tough.

 

[Shango]

Romo is the solution.

Soooo...Why have we not had a winning record in 3 years? I'm curious..

I'm gonna see if you can answer this without contradicting yourself.

 

[KB1122]

There are basically about 6 quarterbacks every 10 years or so that are serious Hall of Fame candidates. If you have one of those qbs, then you are in Pot A, which is going to win 8 or 9 or so of every 10ish SBs. If you don't, you're going to be in Pot B with 25 or so other teams playing for 1 or 2.

 

[Cowboy Brian]

Elite team + no QB.

You're one player away from a dynasty in that scenario.

 

[SWG9]

Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers also need help. Last time I checked none of them made it to the SB this past season and when they have their teams were leading in a lot of the top catagory outside of the QB position. No doubt all very good but Rodgers and Brees both played on teams whose defense lead the league in take aways yet in the years they failed those defense were not playing to a high enough standard to win it all.

But what did those guys do in the years when the defence didn't lead the league in takeaways?

They usually won the division and a playoff game or two (Rodgers last year for example, Manning any number of years in Indy, etc.)

Romo's only made the playoffs 3 out of the 7 years he's been a starter (one of the last five), and he's 1-3 in the playoffs (not to mention his record in win or go home games)

Look, I'm not a crazy fan that thinks Dallas should win the SB every year. But at this point, if Romo were truly a top tier guy, we would have broken through and at least made a NFCCG by now, right?

If you've got an elite player like Rodgers as your QB, you're a playoff team pretty much every year with the potential to break through and win a title if you get a few bounces.

We haven't even sniffed that with Romo.