Elite QB + No Team or Elite Team + No QB

[DallasJ7]

If you're talking about one of the truly elite top QBs (Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers), then give me that all day. You'll always be very competitive, and hopefully one year your defense will be just good enough (a la '09 Saints, '10 Packers) to win it all.

But the problem is Romo isn't in that group; he's in the next tier of very good QBs with whom you believe you can win, but he needs help. At the very least, an above average defense that can CREATE TURNOVERS. You don't need a top running game, but at least one that can convert short yardage situations.

 

[Wheeltax]

No truly mediocre team has made the Super Bowl because of a great QB. Great teams have carried mediocre QBs to Super Bowls, though.

This is a pretty easy one. Naturally, you'd prefer to have the whole package, but you can't do it on a QB alone. The QB doesn't prevent the other team from scoring, or provide push at the line for the running back, or get his receivers separation so they can get open.

I'm a little bit surprised at how many people think a QB is all that matters. It explains a lot, I guess.

 

[cowboysooner]

I'll bite on the Packers, Saints, and Colts....

First of all Romo is NOT on par with those guys. That is just fact...if you believe otherwise then you are kindly booted out of this conversation.

Team assets for them that we don't have.

Coaching: Green Bay has always had a one of the leagues best coaching staffs. and Indy had Tony Dungy and the Saints had Sean Payton...all three staff well above our current staff.

Offensive Line: Green Bay only gave up 31 sacks to Rodgers (7 more to Flynn) Indy only gave up 21 to Manning and the Saints 20 for Brees....I would LOVE to have that type Protection.

As far as Defense...no...none of the teams had stellar defenses but their stats were inflated due to their own explosive offenses. But none were void of talent

Bottom line...even if these QB put their entire teams on their backs...it's only three times and those particular QBs are still struggling to put a team around them to get their 2nd. (No line in GB, Saints fell apart, Broncos still buying top FA WRs to help Peyton)

....and there are tons of examples where complete teams took the ring.

I never said that Romo was as good as Brees, Rodgers or a 30 year old Peyton freaking Manning. I think those are the three best players in the NFL with maybe Brady.

The Cowboys front 7 is better than alot of those teams but they are currently worse at safety.

I think the Cowboys are getting a better deal with Romo than the Texans at #16mm or Flacco at $20 are. I think Romo is a better quarterback than Flacco and certainly is better for the money.

However, Romo's personnel has turned over. Romo had good line play and 2- great targets early in his career with TO, Witten and Glenn.

Now Romo has line play that is below par and bad safeties on defense. Everybody has some holes because of the salary cap.

I don't think letting Romo walk was going to the Cowboys draft any better so I don't see the dichotomy.

It is obvious that the rookie cap is the sweet spot for quarterbacks. It gives you the chance to get at least 3 extra good starters.

I don't think there are many complete teams these days- pretty much San Francisco and Seattle- perhaps Houston.

 

[ufcrules1]

Basically in my mind the decision to keep Romo meant that JJ thinks we are close to having a team that can go all the way, just a few roster spots short. Now if you believe that, then the decision to keep Romo was a good decision, if you don't believe it, then it was a horrible decision that will lock us down in mediocrity for years to come.

I personally felt that we should have traded Romo and feel we would have gotten a lot out of him, possibly a 1st and 2nd. I would have traded Spencer for a 1st or 2nd... not sure what we would have gotten. Basically we would then have had 2 first round picks, and possibly a 3rd 1st round pick or extra 2nd round pick for Spencer. Then I would have focused hard on our lines and safety positions. This is one of our major problems, we hold on to players for too long and then they are worthless and all we do is spin our wheels because we have no depth and roll with too many jags.

We could have found our new QB in 2014.

 

[cowboysooner]

I'll bite on the Packers, Saints, and Colts....


Team assets for them that we don't have.

Coaching: Green Bay has always had a one of the leagues best coaching staffs. and Indy had Tony Dungy and the Saints had Sean Payton...all three staff well above our current staff.

Offensive Line: Green Bay only gave up 31 sacks to Rodgers (7 more to Flynn) Indy only gave up 21 to Manning and the Saints 20 for Brees....I would LOVE to have that type Protection.

As far as Defense...no...none of the teams had stellar defenses but their stats were inflated due to their own explosive offenses. But none were void of talent

Bottom line...even if these QB put their entire teams on their backs...it's only three times and those particular QBs are still struggling to put a team around them to get their 2nd. (No line in GB, Saints fell apart, Broncos still buying top FA WRs to help Peyton)

....and there are tons of examples where complete teams took the ring.

Brees and especially Manning makes the offensive lines. Manning just does not take sacks or pressures. When Manning did not play the line gave up tons of pressure the next year and even with Luck. Hasselback has the same sort of effect. The Titans give up a ton of sacks when Locker plays and very few when Hasselback plays. That is the kind of thing that makes the football outsiders and PFF #'s offensive line ratings very questionable.

I agree with you on the coaching part. I don't think we help our oline much with our scheme or Tony Romo's style of play.

Sean Payton is the best, Tom Moore and Dungy are very consistent, experienced and smart. Mike McCoy is innovative. I don't think Garrett is as good as them at scheme but based on recent history he seems to be pretty good at personnel which is very, very important when you have GM Jerry.

 

[erod]

This isn't so much about average team or below average team or whatever.

Romo needs a chance before we can write his history one way or the other. Absolutely no running game the entire time he's been here. 3rd-and-1 might as well be 3rd-and-100. The Cowboys have never been a consistent threat on the ground the entire time Romo has been here.

And the pass protection.......ugh. What would Peyton, Brady, Brees, or Eli have done behind the offensive lines Romo has suffered through?

Lastly, the defense hasn't stood up and held leads with any amount of certainty for his entire tenure as a starter.

Can Dallas just play some good defense for a change, get its run game to a respectable level, and protect the guy as well as Brees or Brady or Flacco?

Where in world would this team be without Tony Romo? It'd be set to go 5-11 yet again.

 

[Nation]

These are Andrew Luck's salary cap numbers from his 4 year, 22.1 million #1 Pick contract (that per the CBA can't be renegotiated until after 3 years in the league)

2012: 4.015
2013: 5.02
2014: 6.025
2015: 7.03

Point is, if things with Romo go astronomically south it doesn't lock us down in mediocrity as even the highest first 3 years of rookie deals are affordable enough.

 

[ufcrules1]

These are Andrew Luck's salary cap numbers from his 4 year, 22.1 million #1 Pick contract (that per the CBA can't be renegotiated until after 3 years in the league)

2012: 4.015
2013: 5.02
2014: 6.025
2015: 7.03

Point is, if things with Romo go astronomically south it doesn't lock us down in mediocrity as even the highest first 3 years of rookie deals are affordable enough.

Gonna be hard to trade up to the top pick or so when we are 18th in the draft and have holes to fill all over the place... and are broke.

 

[Szczepanik]

Let me not be sarcastic...We are looking for Church and Matt to be the answers at S...bottom of the line FA's Peprah, Frampton and add Will Allen's 0 ints since 06 to the mix. Sims and Durant were not wanted by Detroit which scares the heck out of me. We need Crawford to be big...although he was pick 81...I do consider that kinda late. Livings and Mac were not wanted at all by their former teams.

...we are just getting players to fill in spots...I hate that.

Church is solid at the safety position and I believe he was paid decently as well. Matt Johnson is a big question mark but safety is still need obviously.

Will Allen is NOT meant to be brought in to be a starter. Use some logic here! He is only added for depth and for rotational purposes. He is a good fit for his spot duty and ST play.

Sims played very well considering he was off of the street. I don't see anything wrong with having Sims as depth. Durant is a solid signing. Very athletic, and stout against the run. Keep in mind the team we lost to for the NFC east crown runs the rock and has an athletic QB. Durant is a solid signing to go up against that..

At the moment Crawford is depth, needs to develop.

I cannot defend Livings and Mack though. Mack isn't bad at center. Livings didn't deserve his contract.

 

[dragon_mikal]

Basically in my mind the decision to keep Romo meant that JJ thinks we are close to having a team that can go all the way, just a few roster spots short. Now if you believe that, then the decision to keep Romo was a good decision, if you don't believe it, then it was a horrible decision that will lock us down in mediocrity for years to come.

I personally felt that we should have traded Romo and feel we would have gotten a lot out of him, possibly a 1st and 2nd. I would have traded Spencer for a 1st or 2nd... not sure what we would have gotten. Basically we would then have had 2 first round picks, and possibly a 3rd 1st round pick or extra 2nd round pick for Spencer. Then I would have focused hard on our lines and safety positions. This is one of our major problems, we hold on to players for too long and then they are worthless and all we do is spin our wheels because we have no depth and roll with too many jags.

We could have found our new QB in 2014.

While I'm a fan of Romo and glad he was re-signed I have to admit that I would have given a thumbs up to this plan as well. Only problem is that you just don't know if someone would have actually given them what you're stating and whether or not JJ could have turned those picks into players that could carry this team in the future.

I have no faith in Jerry Jones the GM. None. I think Jerry was terrified, personally. Terrified that if he didn't get Romo re-signed the post Aikman years would come again...and I just don't think he is willing to let that happen.

We need to face the fact that Jerry is old and is getting desperate. Desperate enough to do whatever it takes, in his mind, to get to the SB. These decisions may seem like the right thing to do in his mind while at the same time be outrageous to some of us.

I'm not trying to imply that the Romo deal was a desperate move...IMHO it had to be done.

 

[Doomsday101]

I would say I would take a great team and a avg QB over a great QB and avg team. I'm very team oriented and why not I see football as the ultimate team game.

 

[ufcrules1]

I have no faith in Jerry Jones the GM. None. I think Jerry was terrified, personally. Terrified that if he didn't get Romo re-signed the post Aikman years would come again...and I just don't think he is willing to let that happen.

We need to face the fact that Jerry is old and is getting desperate. Desperate enough to do whatever it takes, in his mind, to get to the SB. These decisions may seem like the right thing to do in his mind while at the same time be outrageous to some of us.

Yup, completely agree with you. In his mind he thinks we are extremely close and doesn't want to rock the apple cart, however we couldn't be any further away and the moves he is making are ensuring that for years to come.

 

[ufcrules1]

I would say I would take a great team and a avg QB over a great QB and avg team. I'm very team oriented and why not I see football as the ultimate team game.

I've never heard you say that before... :laugh2:

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

Through this somehow though...we gotta find the sunshine.

I'm unsure, but I think "sunshine" started another board.

 

[Doomsday101]

I've never heard you say that before... :laugh2:

What you do you want me to say? What makes a great offense is 11 working in unison, same on defense same on special teams. You can have the eagles dream team this game is still about guys playing as a unit and playing fundamentally sound football.

 

[ufcrules1]

What you do you want me to say? What makes a great offense is 11 working in unison, same on defense same on special teams. You can have the eagles dream team this game is still about guys playing as a unit and playing fundamentally sound football.

Isn't that common sense man? Who wouldn't want their team to play as a unit?

 

[Doomsday101]

Isn't that common sense man? Who wouldn't want their team to play as a unit?

As good as Rodgers is he has 1 ring, why has he not done as Troy did? In large part because Troy had HOF'ers on both sides of the ball. No matter how good Rodgers is he can only win if his team plays better football. This is why they got bumped by the Giants not because Eli is the better QB it is NY was the better team.

But even Troy and the Cowboys found it hard to win if other parts were out of the lineup. Funny when Emmitt or Irvin were out of the lineup the Cowboys record was not good. Troy did not forget how to play but his success depended on others he has said it many times himself.

 

[bigdnlaca]

Basically this topic is about choosing:

1 an elite offense but an average or bad defense
2. an average at best qb, but good or great RB, OL, and defense.

I would select the second one

 

[SWG9]

If you're talking about one of the truly elite top QBs (Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers), then give me that all day. You'll always be very competitive, and hopefully one year your defense will be just good enough (a la '09 Saints, '10 Packers) to win it all.

But the problem is Romo isn't in that group; he's in the next tier of very good QBs with whom you believe you can win, but he needs help. At the very least, an above average defense that can CREATE TURNOVERS. You don't need a top running game, but at least one that can convert short yardage situations.

This is exactly now I feel. We're paying Romo like he's in that first tier; he's not. And the amount that we're paying him drastically reduces Dallas's chances to surround him with the talent that he needs to win.

The thing is, the Cowboys have (incorrectly, IMO) evaluated Romo as a first tier guy (hence Jerry's comments about being able to get away with a weaker OL). So I get the logic, just not the evaluation.

The thing is this team does have some pieces. People are going to think I'm, crazy, but this team isn't (or wasn't least; not sure about the 4-3) that far away from Seattle or even SF defensively.

If it were me, I would have kept the 3-4. I would have dealt Romo for some futures, and invested heavily in the OL this year. Picked up a decent RB in the draft and tried to built my team around that defence and the running game in 2013, with an eye to drafting a QB in 2014 (should be a deep class).

With any luck we would have fielded a winner sooner rather than later.

Alas, it's not to be.

 

[Doomsday101]

This is exactly now I feel. We're paying Romo like he's in that first tier; he's not. And the amount that we're paying him drastically reduces Dallas's chances to surround him with the talent that he needs to win.

The thing is, the Cowboys have (incorrectly, IMO) evaluated Romo as a first tier guy (hence Jerry's comments about being able to get away with a weaker OL). So I get the logic, just not the evaluation.

The thing is this team does have some pieces. People are going to think I'm, crazy, but this team isn't (or wasn't least; not sure about the 4-3) that far away from Seattle or even SF defensively.

If it were me, I would have kept the 3-4. I would have dealt Romo for some futures, and invested heavily in the OL this year. Picked up a decent RB in the draft and tried to built my team around that defence and the running game in 2013, with an eye to drafting a QB in 2014 (should be a deep class).

With any luck we would have fielded a winner sooner rather than later.

Alas, it's not to be.

Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers also need help. Last time I checked none of them made it to the SB this past season and when they have their teams were leading in a lot of the top catagory outside of the QB position. No doubt all very good but Rodgers and Brees both played on teams whose defense lead the league in take aways yet in the years they failed those defense were not playing to a high enough standard to win it all.