Ellis... 3-4 DE sack king?

[ABQCOWBOY]

Maxmizing Ellis means trading him at this point. I am a big Ellis supporter and if he is not going to see playing time as exhibited by the last few games of the season, then trading him makes the most sense for the team. Spears and Canty are the young guys that can and will be called on to fill the Ellis role. Get something for Ellis to fill other needs.

I agree. I a felt this was inevitable since the realization that we were going to the 34. In truth, I wished we would have traded Glover and Ellis last year.

To bad too. I really like Ellis.

 

[Clove]

For all of you out there who are in love with Ellis let's take a good look.
Greg Ellis Career
3
7.5
3
6
7.5
8
9
8

8 year career and never double digit sacks. Do you want to win SuperBowls or have a popularity contest?

Jason Taylors Career
5
9
2.5
14.5
8.5
18.5
13
9.5
12

Atleast fight for someone who put up darn good numbers.

 

[Rack]

For all of you out there who are in love with Ellis let's take a good look.
3
7.5
3
6
7.5
8
9
8

8 year career and never double digit sacks. Do you want to win SuperBowls or have a popularity contest?

Jason Taylor -
5
9
2.5
14.5
8.5
18.5
13
9.5
12

Atleast fight for someone who put up darn good numbers.

How many superbowl rings does Jason Taylor have?

 

[Clove]

Same as Ellis.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Playing much less than last season will have an affect on the total amount of tackles and sacks that Ellis can get.

I thought that would be obvious to everyone, guess not...

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

For all of you out there who are in love with Ellis let's take a good look.
Greg Ellis Career
3
7.5
3
6
7.5
8
9
8

8 year career and never double digit sacks. Do you want to win SuperBowls or have a popularity contest?

Jason Taylors Career
5
9
2.5
14.5
8.5
18.5
13
9.5
12

Atleast fight for someone who put up darn good numbers.

Before you fall in love with your research, take a look at the talent that surrounded him.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Ellis never complained about money...what he said was that he might want to restrecuture his deal and get a little more signing bonus this time because then he'd likely get more playing time...

he DID sign a WAY under market value deal a couple yrs back to stay here

as for your other comments, Parcells blew it with Ellis last yr, Ellis didnt blow anything here...the guy has been one of the most hard working, consistent, producitve players this team has had for several years...he's in his prime, and how was he rewarded? by basically being benched...

whereas players who were absolutely horrible like Tucker and Petitti were trotted out there play after play, week after week and rewarded for their mediocrity

the guy was the best DE on the team last yr, just as he has been for the rest of his career here...you dont bench good players, you find ways to use them...the best coaches are the ones who maximize the talent they have, not figure out ways to de-emphasize it

David

I tend to agree, but Parcells actually did Ellis a favor, less snaps keeps guys fresher, and will likely prolong his career for at least another year, it's just that Ellis is a competitive guy, and wants to be on the field every down

can you blame him?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm not certain I agree with this. I think that from a pass rushing prospective, it's true. He was able to put him in situations where he was as productive, plus or minus. However, I do believe that as a whole, our defense suffered towords the end. We couldn't defend the pass or the run. I think that the absence of Ellis contributed to this. Yes, he got the same numbers out of him but I'm not certain I would say that he maxumised Ellis to his full potential.

well, it's kind of hard to argue with someone so versed in the 3-4 as Parcells, and Ellis wasn't that great against the run, or he would have had significant snaps when we started to use more 3-4 looks to stop the run...

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Get something for Ellis to fill other needs.

we need pass rushers for the nickel, so we need Ellis

 

[joseephuss]

For all of you out there who are in love with Ellis let's take a good look.
Greg Ellis Career
3
7.5
3
6
7.5
8
9
8

8 year career and never double digit sacks. Do you want to win SuperBowls or have a popularity contest?

Jason Taylors Career
5
9
2.5
14.5
8.5
18.5
13
9.5
12

Atleast fight for someone who put up darn good numbers.

I thought we were fighting for someone that was a contributor to the team. That is what Ellis has been for Dallas even without acheiving double digit sacks. Seattle made it to the Superbowl and led the leage in sacks and none of their guys had double digit sacks. Grant Wistrom who is pretty much the Seahawks version of Ellis, but gets the luxury of playing the weak side in their 4-3 scheme only had 4 sacks.

If Jason Taylor was in Dallas I would fight for him and wonder why he was suddenly not getting playing time because he would have been benched as well since he isn't a 3-4 end or OLB. I think Taylor may face a similar problem in Miami if they do indeed go to a full blown 3-4 scheme.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I thought we were fighting for someone that was a contributor to the team. That is what Ellis has been for Dallas even without acheiving double digit sacks. Seattle made it to the Superbowl and led the leage in sacks and none of their guys had double digit sacks. Grant Wistrom who is pretty much the Seahawks version of Ellis, but gets the luxury of playing the weak side in their 4-3 scheme only had 4 sacks.

If Jason Taylor was in Dallas I would fight for him and wonder why he was suddenly not getting playing time because he would have been benched as well since he isn't a 3-4 end or OLB. I think Taylor may face a similar problem in Miami if they do indeed go to a full blown 3-4 scheme.

good use of the Seahawks reference

 

[Clove]

Before you fall in love with your research, take a look at the talent that surrounded him.

Those are facts cowboy. The point is, Ellis has been nothing but average from day 1, and I love the dudes attitude and all, but he's not been this unstoppable force around here.

He is not a pro-bowler, and we drafted this guy in the 1st round, and we all act like he's been leading the charge to our outstanding defense.

I've seen games where he has disappeared, and weeks where he had disappeared, and that's not something worth fighting for.

If we were to have kept the 4-3, I'd be all for keeping him on board full time, but since we run the 3-4 now, we only need him on obvious passing downs, which I can think of a few guys in the draft we can get to do that, who would be much cheaper.

 

[Randy White]

If Jason Taylor was in Dallas

Uuuuuhhhhhgggggg.

Please. I've had to live with that Cowboys' mistake 365 days a year since 1997. He should have been a Cowboy. And the reason he wasn't was because of the Kavika Pittman failed experiment.

 

[Jarv]

Those are facts cowboy. The point is, Ellis has been nothing but average from day 1, and I love the dudes attitude and all, but he's not been this unstoppable force around here.

He is not a pro-bowler, and we drafted this guy in the 1st round, and we all act like he's been leading the charge to our outstanding defense.

I've seen games where he has disappeared, and weeks where he had disappeared, and that's not something worth fighting for.

If we were to have kept the 4-3, I'd be all for keeping him on board full time, but since we run the 3-4 now, we only need him on obvious passing downs, which I can think of a few guys in the draft we can get to do that, who would be much cheaper.

Really, you can find a few guys in the draft that can match Ellis's 8 sacks ? Then your even better than BP ! He picked up two top notch rookie DE's (Spears 1st round, Canty 4th...but projected 1st) in the draft last year that put together didn't match Ellis's sack total.

As a matter of fact, only 1 3-4 DE even tied Ellis last year sack total last year.

Who are these magic rookies you intend to pick ? If they early picks will they also be less expensive than Greg's small cap figure this year.

Heck, Ware had a great year as a rushing LB and he was the 11th pick of the draft, didn't come cheap...and he just tied Greg, doing so with a lot more defensive snaps.

Show me your magic picks...cheaper and more productive, just like you said.

 

[Rack]

Really, you can find a few guys in the draft that can match Ellis's 8 sacks ? Then your even better than BP ! He picked up two top notch rookie DE's (Spears 1st round, Canty 4th...but projected 1st) in the draft last year that put together didn't match Ellis's sack total.

As a matter of fact, only 1 3-4 DE even tied Ellis last year sack total last year.

Who are these magic rookies you intend to pick ? If they early picks will they also be less expensive than Greg's small cap figure this year.

Heck, Ware had a great year as a rushing LB and he was the 11th pick of the draft, didn't come cheap...and he just tied Greg, doing so with a lot more defensive snaps.

Show me your magic picks...cheaper and more productive, just like you said.

Nice.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

well, it's kind of hard to argue with someone so versed in the 3-4 as Parcells, and Ellis wasn't that great against the run, or he would have had significant snaps when we started to use more 3-4 looks to stop the run...

Not, it's not. Parcells is a fine coach but he's not beyond reproach. I don't know how anybody can say that Ellis was or wasn't great against the run. The truth is that he really didn't play all that much against the run in the 34. However, while he was in, our run defense was better. The truth of the matter is that the 34 didn't really play all that well against the run. Has little to do with Ellis because he didn't get snaps in that defense. That's kinda the point.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Those are facts cowboy. The point is, Ellis has been nothing but average from day 1, and I love the dudes attitude and all, but he's not been this unstoppable force around here.

He is not a pro-bowler, and we drafted this guy in the 1st round, and we all act like he's been leading the charge to our outstanding defense.

I've seen games where he has disappeared, and weeks where he had disappeared, and that's not something worth fighting for.

If we were to have kept the 4-3, I'd be all for keeping him on board full time, but since we run the 3-4 now, we only need him on obvious passing downs, which I can think of a few guys in the draft we can get to do that, who would be much cheaper.

Great, lets trade him. Basically, what I've been saying since like 05. Wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

However, while he was in, our run defense was better

was it solely because Greg was in the lineup? I don't think so, or he would have been playing alot more in 3-4 sets when we were trying to stop the run later in the year, that or Parcells is the biggest idiot around, I know he's not above reproach, but he isn't dumb enough to misunderstand a coaching philosophy as simple as play the best player, which happens to be the philosophy he's been preaching since Day 1, if you actually cared to listen to him instead of spending all your time dabbling in mindless conspiracy theories...

 

[Bob Sacamano]

and think about it ABQCowboy, Bill's plan before the season was to reduce Ellis' snaps to 60/80% of the defensive plays, but they were reduced to what? 18% in the 2nd half, when we were employing alot more 3-4 fronts to stop the run?

the only logical conclusion that can be gathered from this, and to explain why the D struggled in the 2nd half stopping the run, is because we were relying on 2 rookie starters at 2 of the 3-down spots, the 3-down lineman in the 3-4 need to tie up blockers to allow the OLBs to make plays, as well as enough quality LBs, because our LB crop weren't making plays, outside of Ware and James, 2 out of 4 isn't good...that's more logical than the easy way out, just placing the blame on Ellis' snaps being reduced, we could also throw in the 3-4 being totally foreign to everybody except for Canty, and Spears limited experience playing the scheme at LSU, and not enough 3-4 type DEs backing up Canty and Spears, as well as a suitable backup for Ferguson at NT...

I love Greg, he's a warrior, but the fact is, he's 270 lbs., he's not big enough to constantly take on 2, 300+lb. lineman at the same time for significant snaps, so again, BIll did Ellis a favor, the plan from here on out is going to have to be relying on Canty and Spears developing, as they are better suited to tie up blockers than the miniscule Ellis, as well adding more quality LBs that fit the 3-4, and get some more requisite 3-4 down lineman for rotation...

but he does have a place as a pass-rusher in the nickle

 

[Jarv]

and think about it ABQCowboy, Bill's plan before the season was to reduce Ellis' snaps to 60/80% of the defensive plays, but they were reduced to what? 18% in the 2nd half, when we were employing alot more 3-4 fronts to stop the run?

the only logical conclusion that can be gathered from this, and to explain why the D struggled in the 2nd half stopping the run, is because we were relying on 2 rookie starters at 2 of the 3-down spots, the 3-down lineman in the 3-4 need to tie up blockers to allow the OLBs to make plays, as well as enough quality LBs, because our LB crop weren't making plays, outside of Ware and James, 2 out of 4 isn't good...that's more logical than the easy way out, just placing the blame on Ellis' snaps being reduced, we could also throw in the 3-4 being totally foreign to everybody except for Canty, and Spears limited experience playing the scheme at LSU, and not enough 3-4 type DEs backing up Canty and Spears, as well as a suitable backup for Ferguson at NT...

I love Greg, he's a warrior, but the fact is, he's 270 lbs., he's not big enough to constantly take on 2, 300+lb. lineman at the same time for significant snaps, so again, BIll did Ellis a favor, the plan from here on out is going to have to be relying on Canty and Spears developing, as they are better suited to tie up blockers than the miniscule Ellis, as well adding more quality LBs that fit the 3-4, and get some more requisite 3-4 down lineman for rotation...

but he does have a place as a pass-rusher in the nickle

Excuses are for losers.

Bottom line is Ellis has ALWAYS been good against the run.

Bottom line Ellis was ruduced in his snap count at the end of the year.

Bottom line our run defense suffered at the end of the year.

Bottom line this was brought to BP attention after the season was over and told Ellis's agent he'll play more next year.

Bottom line BP should have noticed DURING the season and made the adjustments.

Bottom line BP is not perfect, but hopefully he's not too old to learn from his mistakes.

In his younger days, he favored Scott Bruener, a vetran he "trusted" over Phil Simms. He did learn from that mistake eventually and Phil led him to a superbowl. So he has done it before and hopefully will do it again.