ESPN: How Washington approaches free agency is anyone's guess

silverbear

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Skinsmaniac;1958381 said:
You are just demonstrating your financial illiteracy. There's nothing inherently wrong about redoing contracts. It just means borrowing against future caps (which are larger every year) to pay players now.

Which carries with it an inherent risk you're apparently incapable of recognizing... if one of those players suffers a career ending injury, then you get KILLED by the cap that next season, in the form of the rest of his signing bonus accelerating onto the cap... as long as those bonuses are in the form of roster bonuses to be paid periodically throughout the deal, you can cut a player loose and not incur a hit for those later roster bonuses, but the second you convert them to a regular bonus, you're on the hook for that money, regardless...

This is basically what happened to the Cowboys after their run of Super Bowls, first Jay Novacek then Charles Haley came down with bad backs and had to retire, the Cowboys had to eat their hit... shortly after that, Troy Aikman's concussions put an end to his career, and they had to eat his hit as well...

Ultimately, though, the Skins are going to have to account for every nickel of every signing bonus they give their players... but they're already doing that, over the last nine years they've had an average of over 13 mil a year in dead money on their cap...

This means that every year our cap is larger than yours.

Not when you factor in the dead money, it doesn't...

It's a measure of YOUR financial ineptitude that you don't realize that mortgaging your cap future for short term cap gratification will eventually come back to bite you in the butt... yes, the cap keeps going up each year, but so do player salaries...
 

Skinsmaniac

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silverbear;1958539 said:
Not when you factor in the dead money, it doesn't... It's a measure of YOUR financial ineptitude that you don't realize that mortgaging your cap future for short term cap gratification will eventually come back to bite you in the butt... yes, the cap keeps going up each year, but so do player salaries...
First of all, in a couple of my posts I have pointed out the risks of doing it the Commanders way, one of which is injury. However, if you take a team that pays its players only in signing bonus and vet min salary in a league where the salary cap increases by 10% each year, then in any given year, that team will have a salary cap anywhere from 20% to 40% bigger than a team that only pays in base salary. They will have that 20% to 40% advantage EVERY YEAR. Now, you raise the point of dead money. This is the most overblown idea tossed around in salary cap discussions. As long as the team paying signing bonuses keeps its dead money to 20% to 40% of that year's salary cap, then they will still come out ahead compared to a team that only pays base salaries. Considering the Commanders dead money is about 6% of this year's cap, their strategy still beats a team that only pays base salaries.

silverbear;1958534 said:
No other team in the league does things the way the Skins do it, period...
No other team offered Leonard Davis $49.6 million. Does that mean it was a bad decision? This "no other team" argument is ridiculous.
 

silverbear

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Skinsmaniac;1958541 said:
No other team offered Leonard Davis $49.6 million. Does that mean it was a bad decision? This "no other team" argument is ridiculous.

Actually, Danny Boy offered Davis the same money, or a little more...

And I'll repeat, the NFL is a copycat league; if anybody tries something and it WORKS, other teams are quick to jump on the bandwagon... the fact that after 9 years of doing it Danny Boy's way, no other team is attempting to emulate his approach ought to tell you that their way hasn't worked, and can't work...

It can't work because if you throw away draft picks, and shove big money at name free agents, you don't have enough room left under the cap to build decent depth...
 

Skinsmaniac

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silverbear;1958549 said:
Actually, Danny Boy offered Davis the same money, or a little more...

And I'll repeat, the NFL is a copycat league; if anybody tries something and it WORKS, other teams are quick to jump on the bandwagon... the fact that after 9 years of doing it Danny Boy's way, no other team is attempting to emulate his approach ought to tell you that their way hasn't worked, and can't work...

It can't work because if you throw away draft picks, and shove big money at name free agents, you don't have enough room left under the cap to build decent depth...
First, I don't know what the Skins offered Davis. Mosley wrote that the Cowboys outbid us, but he might have been assuming that. You get the point that simply because other teams don't follow one team's lead doesn't mean that it was a bad decision. Second, every team in the league pays signing bonuses. The Commanders just pay more, so it's not as if no other team is doing what the Skins are doing. Third, I've been very careful to limit my argument to saying that the Skins put more money into their players' pockets than any other team and that they have therefore in effect raised their cap higher than other teams. This is always a good thing. The Skins may choose to spend that money on overrated players or trade away draft picks, all good criticisms, but in terms of cap maneuvering, the Skins are the best.
 

silverbear

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Skinsmaniac;1958550 said:
First, I don't know what the Skins offered Davis. Mosley wrote that the Cowboys outbid us, but he might have been assuming that.

It was actually fairly widely reported at the time...

You get the point that simply because other teams don't follow one team's lead doesn't mean that it was a bad decision.

Yeah, in the NFL, it does... if the Skins stumbled onto a good approach, that nobody else had ever thought of trying, other teams would line up to take advantage of that approach... the fact that no other team has adopted that approach tells us that it's a flawed approach...

Unless you'd have us believe that Danny Boy is just smarter than all those other owners, at which point I'd note that if that was true, why aren't the Skins WINNING??

Back in the Jimmuh and Jerruh days, fans of other teams just like you were telling us that we'd eventually have to pay the piper, and I blew them off... I thought that Jerry had it all figured out, and really was smarter than all those other owners...

Then reality set in... so you're talking to the voice of experience here, but of course you're not gonna believe you've got problems until you're smack in the middle of them...

Second, every team in the league pays signing bonuses. The Commanders just pay more, so it's not as if no other team is doing what the Skins are doing.

OK, that argument is borderline dishonest, and I really expected more from you... paying signing bonuses is just one aspect of the Skins' approach to capology, another is trading away draft picks... and no other team uses the roster bonus, as opposed to the signing bonus, the same way the Skins do...

Bottom line, you KNOW no other team in the league approaches cap management in NEARLY the same way the Skins do... this is not a legitimate subject for debate...

Third, I've been very careful to limit my argument to saying that the Skins put more money into their players' pockets than any other team and that they have therefore in effect raised their cap higher than other teams.

Except they haven't, because of all the dead money...

The Skins may choose to spend that money on overrated players or trade away draft picks, all good criticisms, but in terms of cap maneuvering, the Skins are the best.

No, they're not... their approach doesn't WORK... until and unless they have a championship or two to show for that approach, it stands discredited...
 

firehawk350

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Bob Sacamano;1958292 said:
we do understand what competitive advantage is, it's what allows you to compete better than other teams

what you don't get, is having a slightly larger cap situation, right now, it won't always be like that mind you, you're up for another cap wizardry in the next couple of years, is just one facet of competitive advantage, we have more competitive advantages over you guys, such as a better, youthful roster, and right now 2, 1st round picks to get even younger, and better

our future is looking up while you still look like an average team, and probably will remain so until you can get flexible w/ the cap

and Jones being the man signed 2 Pro Bowlers and 2 players in the top 3 or 5 of their positions in Ken Hamlin and Leonard Davis, and was the driving force behind us getting another one, one Terrell Owens
How have those 1st rounders gone for you in the last 3 years or so? Let's see, Anthony Spencer (how many plays did he play again), Bobby Carpenter (you could get a roast beef sandwich with him at this point), Marcus Spears (worst starting 3-4 DE in the league, and a whiner at that). I give you Ware, he's a beast.

I wouldn't be pimping your 12 men on the pro bowl roster either, the fact that Gurode made it (and Roy Williams only because Sean Taylor died) shows how credible it is. I still can't figure out why anybody thinks Gurode is good.

Weren't the Saints like 10-6 last season and made the NFCCG and everybody was like, OMGZ, look at the YOUNG TALENT on that team!!!1one11! How did that turn out for them? Or how about DA BEARS?! Young, extremely talented defense. What happened there? Somebody should have let the Pats know that they couldn't compete this year either, after all, the average age of their starting roster has got to be like 32 (exaggeration here). They clearly missed that memo.

Either way, until you actually win something or do something of note (like at least make the NFCCG), you are just like the rest of the NFC this year. Unless, of course, 13-3 gives you some kind of advantage next year that I am completely unaware of.
 

firehawk350

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silverbear;1958585 said:
It was actually fairly widely reported at the time...

It was pretty obvious that we didn't end up wanting Davis or we didn't see eye to eye on his contract because he left the same day he arrived. For whatever reason, we decided not to go that direction. Pity, because with all the injuries, we could have used him.



silverbear;1958585 said:
Yeah, in the NFL, it does... if the Skins stumbled onto a good approach, that nobody else had ever thought of trying, other teams would line up to take advantage of that approach... the fact that no other team has adopted that approach tells us that it's a flawed approach...

Not completely true. First off, the Pats did trade a bunch of picks for players. They did it better and stole Randy Moss (though, it was a gamble) but who would have thought Wes Welker would be the beast he was? Stallworth ended out sucking though. Regardless, they played big in free agency and almost paid off. Same thing with San Fran. Big players in free agency. Didn't pay off. Either way, we aren't the only big spenders around.

silverbear;1958585 said:
Unless you'd have us believe that Danny Boy is just smarter than all those other owners, at which point I'd note that if that was true, why aren't the Skins WINNING??

Well, we did lose 6 starters to injuries for the season. Dallas lost how many? One? And we still did make the playoffs, despite mourning the loss of our team's best player. You guys folded and the worst distraction you had to deal with was a meddlesome girlfriend. So you take your team of whiny (but talented) pretty boys who falter as the stakes get higher and I'll keep my team of guys who come up biggest when the most money is on the table.

silverbear;1958585 said:
Back in the Jimmuh and Jerruh days, fans of other teams just like you were telling us that we'd eventually have to pay the piper, and I blew them off... I thought that Jerry had it all figured out, and really was smarter than all those other owners...

Then reality set in... so you're talking to the voice of experience here, but of course you're not gonna believe you've got problems until you're smack in the middle of them...

No, Jerruh pissed off one of the best talent evaluators in NFL history and drove him away, replacing him with yes men. That was the problem.



silverbear;1958585 said:
OK, that argument is borderline dishonest, and I really expected more from you... paying signing bonuses is just one aspect of the Skins' approach to capology, another is trading away draft picks... and no other team uses the roster bonus, as opposed to the signing bonus, the same way the Skins do...

I run a bit different from other people. My feet move out to the side more so than up but I've run a sub-5 minute mile. Do I win races, more often than not, no I don't. That's not because the way I run is wrong or bad, it's just that I don't have the same lung capacity and endurance that those that win the race do. I'm not elite. But that's okay, because I've beat more than I've lost against.

silverbear;1958585 said:
Bottom line, you KNOW no other team in the league approaches cap management in NEARLY the same way the Skins do... this is not a legitimate subject for debate...

No, you're right, it's not. But the subject of the debate is will it work? Can it possibly work? The answer, irrefutably, is yes, it can. Provided we scout and recruit better. Until we make better personnel decisions though, we're going to have this stupid debate every year.

In that same vein, Vinny said something interesting I heard yesterday. Somebody asked him if he changed the way he approached FA and he said, one thing we learned was to not pick up players that one of our coaches don't already know. There's too much we don't know about their personality, work habits or "fire" to make an accurate judgment. He said the guys we've brought here that have been successful, they already knew (Fletcher for example) and the busts have been guys they didn't know (Lloyd and Arch).

So it sounds like he did at least learn something, so maybe we see a scaled down FA from now on (slowly rebuilding our cap situation as dead money comes off). We'll see...

silverbear;1958585 said:
No, they're not... their approach doesn't WORK... until and unless they have a championship or two to show for that approach, it stands discredited...

A lot of teams approaches don't work. The Cowboys approach hasn't worked either. The Chargers approach of having the generation's best RB and TE, with good, young talented players on both sides of the ball hasn't worked yet either.
 

burmafrd

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Just for the record: who last won the division? Who has won 13 games? Who has 13 in the Pro Bowl (scoff all you want but most of those guys earned being there -not Roy of course). By the way, you have to HAVE draft picks for them to be evaluated. Spears the worst 3-4 DE in the league= what very little credibility you had left there. He is a solid one and thats it and YES that is a disapointment. We give our draft choices 3 years so Carp has one more and Wade admitted they may have given him a raw deal this year. Spencer is going to be a player and the fact that you could not see that tells EVERYONE your ability to recognize talent sucks bowling balls through garden hoses.
You keep avoiding admitting that NO ONE in the League comes even close to the Skins craziness.
And this in a league where copycat is not just a fact but is etched in stone. BY THE WAY: how many division championships or SBs has your way gotten you? Has it even allowed you to win more then 10 games in a season?
 

firehawk350

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burmafrd;1958602 said:
Just for the record: who last won the division? Who has won 13 games? Who has 13 in the Pro Bowl (scoff all you want but most of those guys earned being there -not Roy of course).

And what did that get you? Did you get some kind of great ring, or trophy for all that? Or did you, just like Tampa Bay and Seattle, just exit from the playoffs with nothing to show (like you have for a while). Saying "well, you got knocked out quicker than we did" proves nothing. Great, you danced around the ring for a round longer.

burmafrd;1958602 said:
By the way, you have to HAVE draft picks for them to be evaluated. Spears the worst 3-4 DE in the league= what very little credibility you had left there. He is a solid one and thats it and YES that is a disapointment.

I'll compare our picks to yours for the last 3 years if you want.


Name a worse one.

burmafrd;1958602 said:
We give our draft choices 3 years so Carp has one more and Wade admitted they may have given him a raw deal this year. Spencer is going to be a player and the fact that you could not see that tells EVERYONE your ability to recognize talent sucks bowling balls through garden hoses.

Spencer might be good, but you didn't have any real time to evaluate him. I remember, when he was in for that time that Ellis was out to be more of the ehhhh side of things, what exactly did you see that would tell you he's going to be great? Carp isn't going to get into the lineup this year either.

burmafrd;1958602 said:
You keep avoiding admitting that NO ONE in the League comes even close to the Skins craziness.
And this in a league where copycat is not just a fact but is etched in stone. BY THE WAY: how many division championships or SBs has your way gotten you? Has it even allowed you to win more then 10 games in a season?

Your right though, Dan hasn't won anything yet so nobody's going to copy it. I need to check it out, but I'm pretty sure 1 division championship, twice we've won more than 10 games and 0 super bowls. Since we're quantifying who sucks less (or who's the smarter ******), in that same time period, how many division champs, how many times over 10 wins and how many super bowls have you won? How many playoff games?
 

AmishCowboy

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The Commanders approach to FA?, That's easy enough, Overpay for Average Players, give them a big signing bonus then cut them after 2 years when they finally figured out what the rest of the NFL already knew.
 

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firehawk350;1958606 said:
And what did that get you? Did you get some kind of great ring, or trophy for all that? Or did you, just like Tampa Bay and Seattle, just exit from the playoffs with nothing to show (like you have for a while). Saying "well, you got knocked out quicker than we did" proves nothing. Great, you danced around the ring for a round longer.



I'll compare our picks to yours for the last 3 years if you want.


Name a worse one.



Spencer might be good, but you didn't have any real time to evaluate him. I remember, when he was in for that time that Ellis was out to be more of the ehhhh side of things, what exactly did you see that would tell you he's going to be great? Carp isn't going to get into the lineup this year either.



Your right though, Dan hasn't won anything yet so nobody's going to copy it. I need to check it out, but I'm pretty sure 1 division championship, twice we've won more than 10 games and 0 super bowls. Since we're quantifying who sucks less (or who's the smarter ******), in that same time period, how many division champs, how many times over 10 wins and how many super bowls have you won? How many playoff games?

Look, I understand that you're a huge Commanders fan . . . . but the way Sndyer has been running the team is less than ideal.

Everybody in the NFL knows it. Sndyer is the laughing stock of the NFL.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the Cowboys are set up much better for the longer-term than the Commanders.

Go to other teams' message boards and get their opinions, if you don't believe ours.

It was a tribute to Gibbs on what you guys accomplished post-S Taylor's death. He kept the team together.

I can honestly say this: As long as Snyder is involved in running the show, I don't fear the Commanders at all. I worry more about the Giants and Eagles. I really mean that. I have no axe to grind against you or the Commanders. Heck, I don't even view the Commanders rivary as I did 20 years ago.

Just my opinion . . . .
 

bigE79

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Woods;1958759 said:
Look, I understand that you're a huge Commanders fan . . . . but the way Sndyer has been running the team is less than ideal.

Everybody in the NFL knows it. Sndyer is the laughing stock of the NFL.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the Cowboys are set up much better for the longer-term than the Commanders.

Go to other teams' message boards and get their opinions, if you don't believe ours.

It was a tribute to Gibbs on what you guys accomplished post-S Taylor's death. He kept the team together.

I can honestly say this: As long as Snyder is involved in running the show, I don't fear the Commanders at all. I worry more about the Giants and Eagles. I really mean that. I have no axe to grind against you or the Commanders. Heck, I don't even view the Commanders rivary as I did 20 years ago.

Just my opinion . . . .
:hammer:
 

5Stars

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Let these Commanders think what they want, it's a hopeless cause anyway.

If they want to sit there in front of their computer with their "6th seed" t-shirts on...:laugh1: and tell everyone how the Midget is the bestest and which of them is going to shine the Midget's shoes tonight...let them have at it!

Not my, or our problem...














(6th seed t-shirts...OMG :lmao2:that be some serious cap management )
 

firehawk350

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Woods;1958759 said:
Look, I understand that you're a huge Commanders fan . . . . but the way Sndyer has been running the team is less than ideal.

Everybody in the NFL knows it. Sndyer is the laughing stock of the NFL.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the Cowboys are set up much better for the longer-term than the Commanders.

Go to other teams' message boards and get their opinions, if you don't believe ours.

It was a tribute to Gibbs on what you guys accomplished post-S Taylor's death. He kept the team together.

I can honestly say this: As long as Snyder is involved in running the show, I don't fear the Commanders at all. I worry more about the Giants and Eagles. I really mean that. I have no axe to grind against you or the Commanders. Heck, I don't even view the Commanders rivary as I did 20 years ago.

Just my opinion . . . .
Most NFL fans, including the experts, are extremely fickle. 2006 (not more than two years ago) how many experts were pimping the Skins and saying they would go to the super bowl? How about the Browns? Or Saints? San Fran? Make some noise in the playoffs or at the very least, win more than one division championship and we'll talk. There are very few consistent contenders (a la the Chargers, Pats, Indy) and a lot of flash in the pan teams that tear it up one year and are expected to do great the next only to post less than stellar records. It funny how all those great players that made the pro bowl and were hyped so much seem to be just average when their team falls (see exhibit Moss here).

I don't get the condescension either. You realize that in the past 10 years, the Cowboys have accomplished, arguably, less than the Skins? Or that it was 16 years ago that we won a super bowl (and played the best quarter of football ever) and it was 11 since you won one? I could understand where you are coming from if you were a Pats fan, or a Colts fan, or even an Giants fan but this is like a blind person telling a deaf person to be more observant.

Like it or not, the Skins and Cowboys are actually, when it comes to the new century, at the bottom of the NFCE in accomplishments. The Eagles have owned consistently up until 05 and the Giants just won a super bowl.
 

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firehawk350;1958835 said:
Most NFL fans, including the experts, are extremely fickle. 2006 (not more than two years ago) how many experts were pimping the Skins and saying they would go to the super bowl? How about the Browns? Or Saints? San Fran? Make some noise in the playoffs or at the very least, win more than one division championship and we'll talk. There are very few consistent contenders (a la the Chargers, Pats, Indy) and a lot of flash in the pan teams that tear it up one year and are expected to do great the next only to post less than stellar records. It funny how all those great players that made the pro bowl and were hyped so much seem to be just average when their team falls (see exhibit Moss here).

I don't get the condescension either. You realize that in the past 10 years, the Cowboys have accomplished, arguably, less than the Skins? Or that it was 16 years ago that we won a super bowl (and played the best quarter of football ever) and it was 11 since you won one? I could understand where you are coming from if you were a Pats fan, or a Colts fan, or even an Giants fan but this is like a blind person telling a deaf person to be more observant.

Like it or not, the Skins and Cowboys are actually, when it comes to the new century, at the bottom of the NFCE in accomplishments. The Eagles have owned consistently up until 05 and the Giants just won a super bowl.

Well, if you think that the Cowboys and Commanders are on equal footing going forward, I personally disagree. JJ has learned a lot from his mistakes, IMO, and Snyder hasn't. I thank God that Snyder doesn't run the Cowboys.

But look, don't take my word for it. Go to other message boards of other teams and take an opinion poll on how they think the Commanders are being run.

I don't think my opinion is the minority.
 

burmafrd

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You will not find anyone outside of skin homers who would take washingtons team over ours right now. Or their coaching staff. Or their owner. OR their Salary cap situation. Do I have to go on?
 

AmishCowboy

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burmafrd;1958911 said:
You will not find anyone outside of skin homers who would take washingtons team over ours right now. Or their coaching staff. Or their owner. OR their Salary cap situation. Do I have to go on?
 

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firehawk350;1958590 said:
How have those 1st rounders gone for you in the last 3 years or so? Let's see, Anthony Spencer (how many plays did he play again), Bobby Carpenter (you could get a roast beef sandwich with him at this point), Marcus Spears (worst starting 3-4 DE in the league, and a whiner at that). I give you Ware, he's a beast.

Spears is solid, and him and Ware didn't have somebody like Greg Ellis standing in their way like Carp and Spencer have/had

firehawk350 said:
I wouldn't be pimping your 12 men on the pro bowl roster either, the fact that Gurode made it (and Roy Williams only because Sean Taylor died) shows how credible it is. I still can't figure out why anybody thinks Gurode is good.

because maybe he's the best of pretty, weak C play overall, I mean, who really stands out?


firehawk350 said:
Weren't the Saints like 10-6 last season and made the NFCCG and everybody was like, OMGZ, look at the YOUNG TALENT on that team!!!1one11! How did that turn out for them?

no defense

firehawk350 said:
Or how about DA BEARS?! Young, extremely talented defense. What happened there?

no offense

firehawk350 said:
Somebody should have let the Pats know that they couldn't compete this year either, after all, the average age of their starting roster has got to be like 32 (exaggeration here). They clearly missed that memo.

being old is great for winning now, which you are barely doing

but what about the future? where's your's? you don't even have a QB

firehawk350 said:
Either way, until you actually win something or do something of note (like at least make the NFCCG), you are just like the rest of the NFC this year. Unless, of course, 13-3 gives you some kind of advantage next year that I am completely unaware of.

so the Commanders are comparable w/ the COwboys? ok

again, our cap situation is great, we're young, loaded w/ talented, and came off a great season, we can only get better

idk about you, but winning the division, being the #1 seed, only to be ousted, barely, by the Super Bowl champions is a pretty good start
 

Bob Sacamano

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cripes firesquaw, look at the list of teams Zach Thomas wants to go to, to compete for a championsinp

it's not the Commanders, but oh, look the Cowboys are one of them

who was the toughest obstacle that Michael Strahan felt they overcame to win the Super Bowl, yep, those ****ing Cowboys

in most people's lists of the top teams, they don't include the Redsucks, but the Cowboys...

I know we have a rivalry and everything, but you're not on the Cowboy's level
 

Woods

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burmafrd;1958911 said:
You will not find anyone outside of skin homers who would take washingtons team over ours right now. Or their coaching staff. Or their owner. OR their Salary cap situation. Do I have to go on?

Problem is that this guy is a Commanders' homer. ;)

That's why I keep telling him to check on other teams' message boards on various opinions. He'll find that he's in the minority.
 
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