ESPN: Nate Livings leaves early with knee injury

[RoyTheHammer]

Oh I totally agree that we don't have anyone to replace Livings right now, and that's just SAD.

I'm sorry, but Livings is not a starting quality player. He's a JAG.

Yes, he's the "best" guard we have right now, but that's like saying I'm a better public speaker than my nephew's newborn baby boy.

He was an above average guard according to most of the sites that do those metrics last year. Just from watching he seemed fairly consistent and didn't let up alot of sacks. Agree to disagree, but i certainly think if he's healthy he's starting quality for sure.

 

[Nation]

Oh I totally agree that we don't have anyone to replace Livings right now, and that's just SAD.

I'm sorry, but Livings is not a starting quality player. He's a JAG.

Yes, he's the "best" guard we have right now, but that's like saying I'm a better public speaker than my nephew's newborn baby boy.

That's just ludicrous. He played well most of the year, and got his lunch eaten by Geno Atkins. If you judge him based on that scale then sure he's a JAG. If you do it fairly he's a more-than-adequate 4th or 5th best lineman on a good offensive line.

 

[CyberB0b]

ing about Berny and Livings isn't going to get us anywhere. What's done is done. Jerry invested pennies on the dollar and that is what we got. I just wish he and Berny would stay healthy. They are obviously sub par at what they do, but at least a little cohesion would help them perform at their best.

 

[CowboyDan]

Getting pushed back into your QB and RB all season long is now the definition of "playing well" and "above average" at guard. He stole money.

 

[TheSport78]

That's just ludicrous. He played well most of the year, and got his lunch eaten by Geno Atkins. If you judge him based on that scale then sure he's a JAG. If you do it fairly he's a more-than-adequate 4th or 5th best lineman on a good offensive line.

Cool story, bro.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

ing about Berny and Livings isn't going to get us anywhere. What's done is done. Jerry invested pennies on the dollar and that is what we got. I just wish he and Berny would stay healthy. They are obviously sub par at what they do, but at least a little cohesion would help them perform at their best.

"They" arn't anything near being "obviously subpar" at what "they" do.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Cool story, bro.

Nation 1

TheSport 0

 

[CowboyDan]

I just don't understand how anyone could've watched him play last season and thought he was above average, or even adequate. I mean, maybe you just looked at his stats and said, "gee, he hardly had any penalties and only gave up 5 sacks, he must've been pretty good, right?"

And if that's what you did, I can understand why you have the point of view you do..............but if you actually watched him play, you'd know that he spent half of the game looking back into the backfield, watching his man chase Tony around. He had very little penalties because he was so slow off the ball they couldn't possibly call him for jumping offsides, and he barely made contact with his man half the time, so it wasn't like he was going to get called for holding. I wish I was exaggerating, but it really was this bad all year long.

 

[CyberB0b]

"They" arn't anything near being "obviously subpar" at what "they" do.

So both Livings and Berny were above average? Really? I don't see how anyone could objectively say that. They are what they are. Fringe starters in the NFL.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

So both Livings and Berny were above average? Really? I don't see how anyone could objectively say that. They are what they are. Fringe starters in the NFL.

Obviously, you didn't get what i was trying to do with the quotes there. I think lumping the two together when talking about their play is silly. Livings performed fairly well pretty consistently last year, while Berny was downright bad. I'll take Livings as the starter again this year easy, but i really hope Berny (and for that matter Costa) find their ways off this team before the season starts.

 

[CyberB0b]

Obviously, you didn't get what i was trying to do with the quotes there. I think lumping the two together when talking about their play is silly. Livings performed fairly well pretty consistently last year, while Berny was downright bad. I'll take Livings as the starter again this year easy, but i really hope Berny (and for that matter Costa) find their ways off this team before the season starts.

Livings at his best is below average:

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multim...-Livings/d6e275ed-dba7-4857-b464-4d5b854c20c8

http://cowboysblog.***BANNED-URL***...ys-nate-livings-2012-review-final-grade.html/

I am not saying Nate Livings was garbage, but he just wasn't very good. Never was, never will be.

 

[Nation]

I just don't understand how anyone could've watched him play last season and thought he was above average, or even adequate. I mean, maybe you just looked at his stats and said, "gee, he hardly had any penalties and only gave up 5 sacks, he must've been pretty good, right?"

And if that's what you did, I can understand why you have the point of view you do..............but if you actually watched him play, you'd know that he spent half of the game looking back into the backfield, watching his man chase Tony around. He had very little penalties because he was so slow off the ball they couldn't possibly call him for jumping offsides, and he barely made contact with his man half the time, so it wasn't like he was going to get called for holding. I wish I was exaggerating, but it really was this bad all year long.

5 sacks is average at best for an interior offensive lineman, but I consider pressures to be a superior indicator of performance.

Look at the numbers you posted. Livings allowed pressure on Tony Romo on only 1.9 percent of his snaps in pass protection, compared to Bernadeau at 3.2 percent.

With Livings blocking at the point-of-attack in the run game the Cowboys averaged 3.92 YPC, compared to 3.18 YPC when Bernie was blocking at the point-of-attack.

In Pro Football Focus' statistics, Livings graded out as the #16 guard in the league, whereas Bernadeau was #50 out of 66 eligible players.

I'm not saying that Livings is Logan Mankins, but it is unfair to say he isn't a C+ player or is part of the problem. The problem is players that The Cowboys have two starters that are barely roster-worthy in Bernadeau and Free.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Livings at his best is below average:

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multim...-Livings/d6e275ed-dba7-4857-b464-4d5b854c20c8

http://cowboysblog.***BANNED-URL***...ys-nate-livings-2012-review-final-grade.html/

I am not saying Nate Livings was garbage, but he just wasn't very good. Never was, never will be.

That second link really nails down the humor of this thread..

 

[TheSport78]

Nation 1

TheSport 0

Exactly, because he likes Livings and I do not. Obviously one man's opinion matters more than another's.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Exactly, because he likes Livings and I do not. Obviously one man's opinion matters more than another's.

It was a joke.. but it had more to do with your cop out response rather than who's opinion i preferred.

Besides, "cool story, bro" really isn't an opinion of anything, anyway..

 

[CowboyDan]

If you are trying to sell me on Livings by comparing his stats to Bernadeau's, you've already lost the argument. You can take the stats and the C+ grade and throw them right out the window, because my eyes tell me that both of our guards were F's, especially when you consider what they're being paid. Go back and read what I posted earlier, the guy is a rag doll, constantly being driven back into the QB and RB. That doesn't get counted as a "pressure stat", but it does prevent the running game from going anywhere (and not just when Livings is the point of attack). It also prevents your QB from stepping up into the pocket, or from having the time he needs for the play to develop so he can hit the open man. Now this type of thing won't show up on those fancy stat sheets that everyone loves to write articles about, that make us feel all warm and fuzzy about guys like Nate Livings. But all you have to do is actually watch the game and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about, time and again.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

If you are trying to sell me on Livings by comparing his stats to Bernadeau's, you've already lost the argument. You can take the stats and the C+ grade and throw them right out the window, because my eyes tell me that both of our guards were F's, especially when you consider what they're being paid. Go back and read what I posted earlier, the guy is a rag doll, constantly being driven back into the QB and RB. That doesn't get counted as a "pressure stat", but it does prevent the running game from going anywhere (and not just when Livings is the point of attack). It also prevents your QB from stepping up into the pocket, or from having the time he needs for the play to develop so he can hit the open man. Now this type of thing won't show up on those fancy stat sheets that everyone loves to write articles about, that make us feel all warm and fuzzy about guys like Nate Livings. But all you have to do is actually watch the game and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about, time and again.

Ah, the "I watch the games" argument..classic.

 

[CowboyDan]

Well when you use the Mike Vanderjagt "stats" defense of sitting here and telling me how above-average Nate Livings is, when I can clearly see that you're wrong.........

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Well when you use the Mike Vanderjagt "stats" defense of sitting here and telling me how above-average Nate Livings is, when I can clearly see that you're wrong.........

God forbid people try to use facts in a discussion, you're right. Let's all just stick to the "I sees what i sees" debates, because those are far more substantial and enlightening.

Seriously though, if your lineman is being knocked back into your QB's face, that is "pressure" on the QB.

..and you keep harping on how he got knocked backwards so often in the running game, yet our running game overall averaged 3.6 ypc, but when we ran behind Livings, it jumped to 3.92 ypc. Your eyeballs don't seem to be matching up with the facts, sir.

As for the passing game, a better gauge of his effectiveness would be to compare his 1.9 percent of total snaps against other OG's across the league, if anyone could find those numbers. Seems very reasonable to me though.

 

[TheSport78]

It was a joke.. but it had more to do with your cop out response rather than who's opinion i preferred.

Besides, "cool story, bro" really isn't an opinion of anything, anyway..

What am I supposed to say to someone who said my opinion was "ludicrous" and that Livings played well for the year and just got dominated by Geno Atkins. Is that a well-thought out and fair analysis? No, it's an opinion and I'm not going to change it.

Ah, the "I watch the games" argument..classic.

How about this argument? 31st in rushing offense.

Livings is horrific at getting to the 2nd level. It's one of the main reasons why the Cowboys tried executing more quick trap plays towards the end of 2012. Those guys, definitely including Livings, had serious issues with run blocking.