ESPN: Officer delayed Moats as relative died

[Bleu Star]

caution lights are obvious visual cues that the driver of the vehicle is either notifying other motorists of an issue or is in distress.

I'm not sure why some here aren't getting this point. Perhaps it will stick of we repeat it enough times... It's basic driver's education that everyone here learned when they were pimply and pubescent...

 

[Plumfool]

You do? And so the drawing of the weapon is now something he did right? That’s a flip flop from your earlier comment where you questioned the officer’s “temperament” for drawing his weapon and thought that he should have defended himself with his vehicle. That’s absurd:




You don’t need a training video to know that you stop for lights and sirens, along with a blaring horn. That’s common sense.


No he didn’t. He’s out of his vehicle and yelling on top of the officer, making his ability to process the scene allot more difficult and only escalates an already bad situation. You should know this.



At least you admit that Powell had some justification. That’s a long way from your earlier post. And I do agree that the things went down hill and Powell lost control of the situation, the most egregious being when he was approached by the hospital staff. He needed to switch gears and didn’t for whatever reason. He was very wrong but that does not cancel all the good, as you put it. Things don’t work that way. The reality is that Powell was legally in the right. But he lacked compassion when the time came and for an officer, that’s just not good.


Powell’s conduct at some point became inexcusable. Most law enforcement officers who have posted in this thread have said as much. But it’s not as black and white as you abd some others claim. Moats made some mistakes but in some way and to some here, it all falls on the police because he (Moats) pulled into a hospital parking lot or he had his four ways on.

It doesn’t work that way for police officers and that’s what I’m defending.

I went back and re read my earlier post and found out that my postion was the same it neither flips or flops. I said in my first post it did no give the Officer a LICENSE TO DRAW HIS WEAPON. Then I said in the very next paragraph that I understood him drawing not pointing it. Clearly you see its not a long way from earlier post. My first post addressed the issue. Additionally my second post I said draing the weapon might have been justified. Which means I can't read his mind. But taken the rest of the evidence in it proper context not what if's and maybes any good automatically gets canceled. Because then you see the officers mind set thats why I cant defend officer Powell.

Secondly and here is where the problem thinking of Officer Powell lies as well as his defenders. While you do control scene as best as you can. DON'T escalate it. Because sometimes just maybe sometimes people are telling the truth. Sometimes your wrong. Whether they're yelling at you screaming at you or speaking in a calm voice. You don't escalate the situation. That is black and white. Moats had a good excuse to drive the way he did. Moats also had a right to jump out of his car and advise the officer of his situation. He was dealing with something awful. Powell just chose not to listen. At some point Powells training should have kicked in. Sir please calm down whats exactly is the problem again? Do me a favor have everyone get back in car please for 1 minute so we can check it out? This did not occur. Moats jumped out frantic as well as he should. Powell jumped out with the mind set it going to go my way. That can't be denied because thats the way it went. Evidence shows it. That is also black and white. And thats why powell is not patrolling the streets at this moment.

And as far as the drawing of weapon instead of using his vehicle. I'm not going to argue something that has no strict policy other than if an officer feels a threat to himself or others. Then draw it. However going by said evidence up to the point when Powell finally is able to get to moats: if the officer had no chance to formulate a thought no evidence to draw on I could understand the reaction. But because there was ample time from the initial interaction till moats stops. The manner in which Moats was driving and the fact that he did go into hospital parking should have given the officer just a moment to pause. To use rationale that maybe this guy has an emergency so I might need to hear him out. And not be hell bent to uphold the law. Those are the types of things your training will do for you if your mind is right.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Here's a real big clue that the Officer screwed up here.

His Department and Chief are NOT backing him up.

That is a big time red flag fact that a lot of people seem to be ignoring. If you think for one minute that Police Officers and Departments are not fiercely loyal then you are sadly mistaken.

I now return you to your previously scheduled discussion.

My 2 cents. Officer Powell used very poor judgment, but I do not think he was unprofessional. In some ways he was too professional. He remembered the his oath to Protect. He forgot his Oath to Serve.

I don't think he should be fired, but I don't think Ryan Moats deserved a ticket and I am glad the Department has issued an apology and that the Officer has tried to.

I hope adults can understand we are all human and move on. Ryan Moats was not cursing at this officer. Yeah, he ran a red light. Good for him. He got his wife to her Mother's side before she passed away.

Here's my take.

Police wield a LOT of power.
The average citizen we can rack up to being crazy and hostile and aggressive.
But someone who is all that and is an officer with arrest powers, that's dangerous to society and danger to democracy.

 

[Alexander]

Zach Thomas: Same Dallas officer mistreated my wife

NFL linebacker says line was crossed in 2008 traffic stop; Powell's attorney sees no improper actions


11:43 PM CDT on Saturday, March 28, 2009
By TODD ARCHER / The Dallas Morning News
tarcher@***BANNED-URL***

Maritza Thomas, the wife of NFL linebacker Zach Thomas, saw a familiar face as she watched the video of Officer Robert Powell detaining Houston Texans running back Ryan Moats as he and his family rushed to a hospital to see a dying loved one. That face was Powell's.

On July 27, 2008, while her husband was at training camp with the Cowboys in Oxnard, Calif., Maritza Thomas was pulled over by Powell for an illegal U-turn near NorthPark Center.

Maritza Thomas was issued five tickets by Powell, four of which were later dismissed. Thomas was handcuffed, placed in the back of a police cruiser, spent about three hours in the Dallas County Jail and was threatened with the possibility of spending the night behind bars.

"This in no way compares to what happened to Ryan Moats and his family," said Zach Thomas, who played for the Cowboys last season and is now a free agent. "But we wanted to tell our story, not knowing how many others have been affected by Officer Powell. We know the vast majority of the Dallas police force are good and professional people, but this guy just seems excessive."

The charges that were dropped included: failure to show proof of insurance, running a red light, improper address on driver's license and a registration sticker was not on the windshield. She accepted deferred adjudication for the illegal U-turn charge, and her record will be cleared next month.

In total, Maritza Thomas, who is Hispanic, was detained roughly five hours.

"This situation never should've happened," said Maritza Thomas' attorney, Brody Shanklin. "Unless extraordinary circumstances exist, no person should be arrested for a Class C citation. In this case, it was an example of Officer Powell being overzealous and exerting his authority in a manner that he never should have."

Bob Gorsky, Powell's attorney, questioned the timing of Thomas' allegations, saying she had not complained about her arrest until the Moats incident became public.

"After her arrest, she may have mentioned that her husband was a football player, but that played no role in her arrest or the disposition of the case," Gorsky said.

"I do understand that an arrest on multiple traffic charges happens often and is absolutely proper under these circumstances," Gorsky said. "Often, when there are multiple charges, an arrest made and bond posted, some of the charges from a single event are later dropped."

According to Maritza Thomas, a pharmacist with no prior criminal record, Powell would not accept the explanation of where the proper paperwork was before she was taken to jail. Her mother, Teresa Lozano, who was making her first trip to Dallas and speaks little English, was forced to ride with the tow truck driver when the car was impounded. She later posted bail for her daughter's release.

"My mom was begging for him to let her go to the apartment that was five minutes away to get the paperwork," Maritza Thomas said. "He unbuckled his holster, and she got scared."

The Thomases said Powell was dismissive, but they did not allege that he used abusive language. There is no dash-cam video available of the incident, but the police report lists the five citations and confirms that Thomas was taken to jail.

At the time, the Thomases considered filing a complaint against Powell but declined, "because we didn't want to cause a stir," said her husband, Zach Thomas, believing it "was maybe a guy having a bad day." However, they plan to file one now.

[an error occurred while processing this directive]
Complaints can be made more than 60 days following an incident in person or in writing with the internal affairs department. Maritza Thomas said she would fax a letter this week. The Thomases said they are not seeking money.

Sr. Cpl. Kevin Janse, a Dallas police spokesman, declined to comment on Thomas' allegation.

However, he said police would investigate all complaints submitted to the department about Powell.

"If she feels Officer Powell did something wrong, we'll investigate it," Janse said. "We are not going to go back and track everything this officer has done," he said. "If people come to us with concerns, we'll look into it."

The department is investigating Powell's actions on the night of the Moats traffic stop, as well as any other questionable encounters involving the officer, Janse said.

Maritza Thomas said, "I hope that by telling my story that it will help prevent situations like this from happening in the future."

Powell issued an apology Friday for his actions in which Moats and his grandfather-in-law were unable to see Jonetta Collinsworth before she succumbed to breast cancer this month. Powell has been put on paid leave.

With the grim news of Collinsworth's health, Moats, his wife, Tamishia, and her grandfather rushed to Baylor Regional Medical Center at Plano, rolling through a red light that prompted Powell to turn on his lights.

Outside the emergency room, Powell detained Moats for 13 minutes, and Collinsworth died before everybody could say goodbye.
====

He's just an officer who does everything by the book. No problem.

 

[Hostile]

I'm now convinced, that's a guy who should not ever wear a badge again.

 

[dogunwo]

I'm now convinced, that's a guy who should not ever wear a badge again.

as i said in the other thread, how can someone defend him now? Of course race is going to be brought in to it. Could be a coincidence, there's evidence to suggest maybe not. I hate when the race card is thrown recklessly because it causes people to ignore the many injustices that alot of minorities still suffer. These two incidents, i don't know.

 

[Dodger12]

as i said in the other thread, how can someone defend him now? Of course race is going to be brought in to it. Could be a coincidence, there's evidence to suggest maybe not. I hate when the race card is thrown recklessly because it causes people to ignore the many injustices that alot of minorities still suffer. These two incidents, i don't know.

What evidence is that? One person with some public staure and the wife of another being treated like the average citizen so now this becomes a big deal?

I haven't heard one person speak of personal accountablity in either of these threads. No doubt this guy appears to be over the top and extreme. But there's a simple lesson here as well; carry your insurance card, don't run a red light, don't make an illegal U-Turn, and have your vehicle properly registered and display the same. I'll bet most Americans do that, as well as most people on this board. If I'm in some way supposed to fell sorry for some people not following very simple rules, the same rules that a majority of people follow, it's just not happening.

 

[Avery]

What evidence is that? One person with some public staure and the wife of another being treated like the average citizen so now this becomes a big deal?

I haven't heard one person speak of personal accountablity in either of these threads. No doubt this guy appears to be over the top and extreme. But there's a simple lesson here as well; carry your insurance card, don't run a red light, don't make an illegal U-Turn, and have your vehicle properly registered and display the same. I'll bet most Americans do that, as well as most people on this board. If I'm in some way supposed to fell sorry for some people not following very simple rules, the same rules that a majority of people follow, it's just not happening.

I agree with most of what you stated, but slowing for a red light after being waved through by the opposing driver with your hazards on and pulling up in a hospital's emergency room parking does not seem to be the workings of an irrational person nor dictates a 13 minute lecture. It's judgment pure and simple.

Riddle me this: it's 1am at night and you're rushing your wife to the hospital - do you drive the speed limit and no more, stop for every red light and be sure to signal three seconds before each turn? These are the rules, but should there not be instances where these guidelines can be stretched due to extraordinary circumstances?

 

[dirtycallahan]

I have been in law enforcement for over 20 years, 19 1/2 of them in DC. In 1995 I left DC to take a job in Plano, where I stayed less than 6 months and went back to DC. The thing that drove me off was my "training officer." He seems to be exactly like this guy. It may still work this way in Texas, but at that time you could arrest anyone for traffic violations (except for speeding and seat belt) and take them in front of the magistrate. I dont want to get into race, but the same kind of people got tickets, just about all the rest went to see the magistrate. Seems like this guy is part of the same program.

 

[Bleu Star]

Zach Thomas: Same Dallas officer mistreated my wife

NFL linebacker says line was crossed in 2008 traffic stop; Powell's attorney sees no improper actions

Case closed. Thanks for fortifying the argument of myself and a few others on this board Zach. Get rid of Powell before he ends up in 20 year tenured bad cop territory.

 

[Bleu Star]

What evidence is that? One person with some public staure and the wife of another being treated like the average citizen so now this becomes a big deal?

I haven't heard one person speak of personal accountablity in either of these threads. No doubt this guy appears to be over the top and extreme. But there's a simple lesson here as well; carry your insurance card, don't run a red light, don't make an illegal U-Turn, and have your vehicle properly registered and display the same. I'll bet most Americans do that, as well as most people on this board. If I'm in some way supposed to fell sorry for some people not following very simple rules, the same rules that a majority of people follow, it's just not happening.

Hopefully you're never in a situation where you have a very close loved one in the passenger seat that just had a heart attack and you're rushing that person to the ER with hazard lights blazing as your loved one hangs on for dear life. You're still being half mindful of traffic laws but ultimately it's life or death and you're in a hurry. Hopefully Officer "by the book" Powell doesn't happen to be sitting somewhere between point A and point B for you... If so, welcome to the You're ****ed show.

 

[jobberone]

This was more than that. This officer exercised incredibly poor judgment at every turn under routine circumstances. It was obvious what Motes was doing, where he was going, why he was driving the way he did. It was obvious why the passengers in the car were reacting emotionally.

On the flip side, the officer is supposed to be the one in control of his emotions and in control of the situation. Even if he were not, it was clear from very early on in the incident that there was no reason for him to fear for his safety.

Burning at the stake is a fate reserved for someone who gets the short end of the stick at an inquisition. What this guy did was hang himself.

You don't understand. Maybe it's because you've never been the police officer. All the other police officers are saying exactly what I'm saying. Now, you can wrap that up into us being bullies or you can listen to the other side.

And some are jumping on the witch hunt and 'burning' his job. He definitely needs looking at. But to fire him over this is not warranted. Ask the cities attornies.

No one wants to be under another's total authority. We're Americans and not used to it. Go to Nigeria for a week then report back to us. In the interest of that officer's safety and those around him you cannot fault him. You can fault him for his arrogance, poor judgent, lack of self control, and insensitivity.

I suppose none of you have ever had a **** you contest with your spouse then had to apologize for it later. People **** up and that includes you and me.

 

[ComicBookGuy]

You can fault him for his arrogance, poor judgent, lack of self control, and insensitivity.

This is exactly why he should not be a patrol officer, especially on his own. He is the cop. It is not unreasonable to expect an office to control a situation rather than escalate it by threats and being a bully. If he hasn't learned by now how to react and adapt to a situation like this after all the training he has had, sit his butt at a desk until he proves he can control himself.

I suppose none of you have ever had a **** you contest with your spouse then had to apologize for it later. People **** up and that includes you and me.

I rarely get into arguments. Even when I do though, I'm not holding somebody against their will during a family crisis. This is the issue many take with his actions. From what I can tell, few take offense to him trying to pull them over, being cautious, or waiting for the story was corroborated. People are taking offense to his attitude, Napoleon complex, and complete inability to adapt to a situation when it became perfectly clear that this situation had extraordinary circumstances.

 

[jobberone]

This is exactly why he should not be a patrol officer, especially on his own. He is the cop. It is not unreasonable to expect an office to control a situation rather than escalate it by threats and being a bully. If he hasn't learned by now how to react and adapt to a situation like this after all the training he has had, sit his butt at a desk until he proves he can control himself.


I rarely get into arguments. Even when I do though, I'm not holding somebody against their will during a family crisis. This is the issue many take with his actions. From what I can tell, few take offense to him trying to pull them over, being cautious, or waiting for the story was corroborated. People are taking offense to his attitude, Napoleon complex, and complete inability to adapt to a situation when it became perfectly clear that this situation had extraordinary circumstances.

Read all my posts. I have a hard time with it, too. In fact it's the one thing he does I consider dangerous. Some people will snap if you are aggressive emotionally/verbally. Others need that to get them in line (not for traffic tickets....worse stuff). He's clearly wrong. Again, insensitive, arrogant, loss of self control, poor judgment yada.

You don't just automatically fire people the first time they screw up. You try and teach them. Again, he needs an evaluation. Especially in light of the Zack Thomas info. I suppose I should have clarified that with a psychiatric evaluation. But you don't automatically fire someone.

 

[ComicBookGuy]

Heh, there are almost 20 pages on this thread now. I'm not gonna go back and attempt to read every single post by an individual poster.

I agree with a psych evaluation. The guy appears to have some issues and if they find that he does indeed have issues that either cause him to lose some level of control or cloud his judgement, he needs to be put at a desk.

 

[trueblue1687]

Did I say he had done anything "procedurally wrong?" Uh, no I didn't. Here is what I did say.



I did say he used poor judgment. His department and Chief are saying the same thing. I defended Moats as well as the Officer if you want to look at it real close beyond the line in big bold letter with a red NOT.

Since you so obviously missed it I will say it the same way as what you did bother to read last time.

He remembered the his Oath to Protect. He forgot his Oath to Serve.

He was too focused on the running of a red light to pull his head out of his *** and realize that really nice people needed him to understand something that he absolutely refused to. He protected the laws of Dallas, Texas. He did not serve the citizens he pulled over who were obviously not criminals.

He ignored hospital personnel and a Plano Officer. For what? So he could make a point to Ryan Moats about all the ways he could "screw him over?" Those are his words, not mine.

What if they had been taking a child who had ingested poison to the hospital? Would he have pulled his gun and demanded they stay in the car? What if he was delivering someone who had been shot?

He heard a reason for why they ran a red light. There was PLENTY of evidence to support their story including actual Hospital personnel telling him so.

He's young. He was not dangerous that I could see. He was however, being very stupid.

Uh, my part only spoke to your equating the lack of departmental backing with his indictment of wrong doing. I simply said one has absolutely nothing to do with the other...I just didn't use a #86 font to say it.

 

[trueblue1687]

Both of these examples are not nearly as obvious in terms of attracting attention to the vehicle. Someone driving fast or having an expired tag are insanely stupid. To me, caution lights are obvious visual cues that the driver of the vehicle is either notifying other motorists of an issue or is in distress. Sorry, your logic again is pretty bad, mostly because you are making excuses for one of your own.



This is a nice mentality. So basically, not complying is a mandate to be abused severely to the point of hospitalization or even "worse"? LOL



YOUR reality from a police perspective. Get that straight.

I'm afraid your lack of insight into any LIKE situation is terminal. And, um....there's only one reality. Doesn't really matter who's perspective it is. I only challenged you to actually experience what you claim to be so knowledgeable about...how much more fair could it be than that? all that aside, I tire pretty quickly from these conversations. Although mildly amusing, your mantra is not unlike thousands I have heard over the years...probably a product of too much television. Not much else to add other than it has nothing to do with my opinion or perspective...the real world is just NOT as you imagine it.

 

[boyzjunkie]

Read all my posts. I have a hard time with it, too. In fact it's the one thing he does I consider dangerous. Some people will snap if you are aggressive emotionally/verbally. Others need that to get them in line (not for traffic tickets....worse stuff). He's clearly wrong. Again, insensitive, arrogant, loss of self control, poor judgment yada.

You don't just automatically fire people the first time they screw up. You try and teach them. Again, he needs an evaluation. Especially in light of the Zack Thomas info. I suppose I should have clarified that with a psychiatric evaluation. But you don't automatically fire someone.

Rather than viewing this as him "screwing up", I tend to view it as someone who slipped by the department's personality evaluation prior to his being hired.
It may be in everyone's best interest, especially the officer in question, to get him out of the position of authority he appears to be emotionally unsuited for. Hopefully he will be psychologically reevaluated to determine his aptitude to continue on as an officer of the law. His recorded behavior is sketchy at best. More likely a precursor to more such behavior.

 

[Bleu Star]

Rather than viewing this as him "screwing up", I tend to view it as someone who slipped by the department's personality evaluation prior to his being hired.

 

[Hostile]

Uh, my part only spoke to your equating the lack of departmental backing with his indictment of wrong doing. I simply said one has absolutely nothing to do with the other...I just didn't use a #86 font to say it.

In other words, I was right. Thanks.