ESPN: Officer delayed Moats as relative died

[iceberg]

i finally had time to watch the video.

the officer can't see hazard lights and a vehicle going to the hospital in an obvious hurry and can't understand before another second passes that there's a family crisis likely?

he should be fired.

then rehired.

then fired again.

 

[Dodger12]

Like the Dallas media you've selected only portions of my comment to try and make a point. So let me repeat. I understand his drawing of the weapon . However because he does something correctly at first does not give an ok to act like an butt hole. That is the point.

You do? And so the drawing of the weapon is now something he did right? That’s a flip flop from your earlier comment where you questioned the officer’s “temperament” for drawing his weapon and thought that he should have defended himself with his vehicle. That’s absurd:

This officer drew his weapon upon seeing people shoot out of the van which suggestes a type of temperment. People will say that officer cant just trust what people say. Thats true but that is no license to take out your weapon. You protect yourself with your vehicle.

This particular officer did not look at all factors as you are doing as well. You are defending the officer reactions to a non trained civilian. Moats does not have a book or been to classes or seen training films about this situation.

You don’t need a training video to know that you stop for lights and sirens, along with a blaring horn. That’s common sense.

Moats acted reasonably from start to finish.

No he didn’t. He’s out of his vehicle and yelling on top of the officer, making his ability to process the scene allot more difficult and only escalates an already bad situation. You should know this.

Powell might have had justification at first but quickly degraded. And for a police officer thats not good.

At least you admit that Powell had some justification. That’s a long way from your earlier post. And I do agree that the things went down hill and Powell lost control of the situation, the most egregious being when he was approached by the hospital staff. He needed to switch gears and didn’t for whatever reason. He was very wrong but that does not cancel all the good, as you put it. Things don’t work that way. The reality is that Powell was legally in the right. But he lacked compassion when the time came and for an officer, that’s just not good.

You for whatever reason continue to defend the actions of a man that persons who have been in law enforcement longer than I have felt were inexcuseable. Whether that is your intention or not

Powell’s conduct at some point became inexcusable. Most law enforcement officers who have posted in this thread have said as much. But it’s not as black and white as you abd some others claim. Moats made some mistakes but in some way and to some here, it all falls on the police because he (Moats) pulled into a hospital parking lot or he had his four ways on.

It doesn’t work that way for police officers and that’s what I’m defending.

 

[DCBoysfan]

When Powell see's the emergency lights on Moats truck and then see's the truck pull into the Hopsital, a light buld should have went off in his head. Now when the occupants jumped out the car, I would have drew my weapon, not pointed at them just kept it by my side while I stood behind my cruiser.

I have been on many, many traffic stops and when the door of the car opens 99.9% it is not a good thing. Now in saying that and seeing them pull into the Hospital you have to think that maybe there is some kind of medical emergency going on. Once he saw or heard them say someone is dying his discrestion should have taken over. He should have the abilty to draw his weapon and they should have never saw it. The fact that they (Moats and his wife) saw his weapon makes me think that he pointed at them or raised it in a threating manner, which I feel was uncalled for.He was wrong which is why he is on adm. leave. Police officers have the right to use discretion just as the Dallas Police Chief said officer Powel did'nt do. Officer's like him make it that much harder for me when I leave roll call.

I was in position similar to Moats, I had to rush my kid to the Hosp. and I did not get pulled over but during the course of going to the Hosp. if a police car would have attempted to pull me over I would have continued to the Hosp., if after we got my kid to the hosp. and the officer wanted to tow my car or arrest me so be it. So I'm looking at the situation from both sides and Powel was wrong.

 

[Hostile]

Here's a real big clue that the Officer screwed up here.

His Department and Chief are NOT backing him up.

That is a big time red flag fact that a lot of people seem to be ignoring. If you think for one minute that Police Officers and Departments are not fiercely loyal then you are sadly mistaken.

I now return you to your previously scheduled discussion.

My 2 cents. Officer Powell used very poor judgment, but I do not think he was unprofessional. In some ways he was too professional. He remembered the his oath to Protect. He forgot his Oath to Serve.

I don't think he should be fired, but I don't think Ryan Moats deserved a ticket and I am glad the Department has issued an apology and that the Officer has tried to.

I hope adults can understand we are all human and move on. Ryan Moats was not cursing at this officer. Yeah, he ran a red light. Good for him. He got his wife to her Mother's side before she passed away.

 

[dogunwo]

Here's a real big clue that the Officer screwed up here.

His Department and Chief are NOT backing him up.

That is a big time red flag fact that a lot of people seem to be ignoring. If you think for one minute that Police Officers and Departments are not fiercely loyal then you are sadly mistaken.

I now return you to your previously scheduled discussion.

My 2 cents. Officer Powell used very poor judgment, but I do not think he was unprofessional. In some ways he was too professional. He remembered the his oath to Protect. He forgot his Oath to Serve.

I don't think he should be fired, but I don't think Ryan Moats deserved a ticket and I am glad the Department has issued an apology and that the Officer has tried to.

I hope adults can understand we are all human and move on. Ryan Moats was not cursing at this officer. Yeah, he ran a red light. Good for him. He got his wife to her Mother's side before she passed away.

I was wondering when you were going to weigh in on the subject.

 

[justbob]

Np disrespect but that's hog wash. This officer, during the initial phases of the stop, was absolutely by the book. Anyone who has been to any acredited law enforcement academy of any value since 1991 has seen the the Darrell Lunsford video; probably one of the most tragic yet useful law enforcement training tools. The primary rule that was learned and hammered home is control your scene; keep the occupants in the vehicle at all times; deal with one occupant at a time and always keep them in front of you; action is faster than reaction. Texas Rangers, after shooting incidents, have refered to lessons learned in Lunsford video as having saved their lives. This is why you heard Officer Powell repeat over and over for the occupants to stay in their car. At no point in the video up until Moats realized he wasn't going to get anywhere with his yelling, was anyone at the scene even remotely compliant. In hind signt, I can understand why they didn't and I can certainly understand their emotion. But if Moats would have listened instead of trying to scream over the officer during the inital phases of the stop and after a one minute chase, the whole scene may have ended up differently. The officer tried explaining that he needed to verify the driver's information. This may take no more than one minute of someone's time once the officer has all the details he needs. Moats refused to produce his insurance and became what could be interpreted to some as beligerent tot he point where the officer asked dispatch for backup, all by the book



This statement is shocking to me coming from a law enforcement officer. No disrespect, but I'm starting to have my doubts.



Again, hog wash. And from a person who was supposedely trained at one of the premier law enforcement academies in the country. You refered to threat assessment earlier in your post. Attitude and complaince are big factors in the initial evaluation of the scene. But there came a time when Powell should have filtered the information and used his discretion to bring the scene to a resolution, especially after the nurse verified the situation. He didn't do that and he failed miserably.

But too many people here are painting this whole scenario in black and white and painting all law enforcment officers with a real broad brush. There's simple lesson here. Stop when you see lights and sirens, be compliant and explain your situation. Most law enforcment officers are level headed people. We only see the few times when things go wrong and draw our conclusions on that alone, but never the thousands of times when their judgement is spot on.

If Plumfool is a Ranger it is easy enough to check out--Plumfool PM me your name, where you are stationed and what company....I can verify it..In fact I may know you.

 

[Dodger12]

If Plumfool is a Ranger it is easy enough to check out--Plumfool PM me your name, where you are stationed and what company....I can verify it..In fact I may know you.

You'll be waiting a long time.......

 

[jobberone]

and if you're an officer, what is your reaction?

i stay in my car and keep my hands on the steering wheel til he gets to the window.

if i don't want to be in a bad situation, i don't put myself there. well, except for whatever i did that got me pulled over. : )

I've put my hands on the dash at times just so the officer can see them. Don't turn on lites. Don't start looking for things and leaning over to open the glove box. Just sit still then do what the man asks. Politely and with a quiet voice. Make her/him feel safe.

 

[jobberone]

I'll give this clown the benefit of the doubt. At 7:30 into the first video when the officer is informed that the story is in fact true by a hospital official "compassion" should have kicked in. It didn't. Idiot material.

That's because you're an honest person. He deals with a lot of people that you don't likely even know about. I bet there are not more than 50 people who are on this forum who have ever stopped a vehicle and approached it as a police officer. Probably 10-20.

My biggest problem is allowing himself to get drug into the emotion. He's supposed to stay calm. Not doing so can escalate and create a problem. You don't know this guy's not on PCP, crack or has a history of violence. I can understand him getting real nervous with the doors coming open and people not obeying him. That needs to be mitigated.

All this officer is guilty of is in retrospect looking like a totally insensitive arse and allowing himself to get emotionally caught up in the incident. But that's retrospectively. Look at it from his viewpoint and his safety and those of others around him. I'm sorry the woman died and the family lost time being there.

It's really disturbing to me to see people so ready to burn people at the stake.

 

[Idgit]

That's because you're an honest person. He deals with a lot of people that you don't likely even know about. I bet there are not more than 50 people who are on this forum who have ever stopped a vehicle and approached it as a police officer. Probably 10-20.

My biggest problem is allowing himself to get drug into the emotion. He's supposed to stay calm. Not doing so can escalate and create a problem. You don't know this guy's not on PCP, crack or has a history of violence. I can understand him getting real nervous with the doors coming open and people not obeying him. That needs to be mitigated.

All this officer is guilty of is in retrospect looking like a totally insensitive arse and allowing himself to get emotionally caught up in the incident. But that's retrospectively. Look at it from his viewpoint and his safety and those of others around him. I'm sorry the woman died and the family lost time being there.

It's really disturbing to me to see people so ready to burn people at the stake.

This was more than that. This officer exercised incredibly poor judgment at every turn under routine circumstances. It was obvious what Motes was doing, where he was going, why he was driving the way he did. It was obvious why the passengers in the car were reacting emotionally.

On the flip side, the officer is supposed to be the one in control of his emotions and in control of the situation. Even if he were not, it was clear from very early on in the incident that there was no reason for him to fear for his safety.

Burning at the stake is a fate reserved for someone who gets the short end of the stick at an inquisition. What this guy did was hang himself.

 

[trueblue1687]

Here's a real big clue that the Officer screwed up here.

His Department and Chief are NOT backing him up.

That is a big time red flag fact that a lot of people seem to be ignoring. If you think for one minute that Police Officers and Departments are not fiercely loyal then you are sadly mistaken.

I now return you to your previously scheduled discussion.

My 2 cents. Officer Powell used very poor judgment, but I do not think he was unprofessional. In some ways he was too professional. He remembered the his oath to Protect. He forgot his Oath to Serve.

I don't think he should be fired, but I don't think Ryan Moats deserved a ticket and I am glad the Department has issued an apology and that the Officer has tried to.

I hope adults can understand we are all human and move on. Ryan Moats was not cursing at this officer. Yeah, he ran a red light. Good for him. He got his wife to her Mother's side before she passed away.

His Chief (which for all intents and purposes has the final say in EVERY matter of the department...therefore IS the department) not backing him up is certainly not indicative of being right or wrong. It is called self preservation in most instances. The chief (as opposed to a Sheriff) is appointed and can be replaced ANY time. More likely, the chief was bombarded with calls from the media and responded w/ paid admin leave....which tells the real story. That is, the officer did nothing procedurally wrong and there fore couldn't be truly "disciplined". He got a paid vacation essentially. If police departments were "fiercely loyal" to officers (they're not...in fact they routinely go WAY overboard to avoid any appearance of impropriety), then there would be no unions or PBA, FOP, etc. The officer suffered from lack of experience or was over zealous...but otherwise did nothing procedurally wrong. Not a popular perspective, but after nearly 20 years in law enforcement (and 10 in administrative positions)...I know what I'm talking about. If the officer had really screwed up, he would be unemployed. There is nothing to investigate here...it's all videoed.

 

[trueblue1687]

First let me say that i read all the responeses to this thread because I was really interested to know how people felt. I'm a law officer. I work as a Texas Ranger. And there is not one moment that I can honestly defend Officer Powells actions. People hear have tried to and I applaud the sentiment. Even some have suggested that Moats was in the wrong. I'm sorry thats not even close to being accurate. The reason? Powells has had what I trust extensive training in threat assesment.

Watching the video I notice quite a few things most glaring was the fact that Powell at no time was driving in a manner that suggested anything nefarious. Just because he ran one stop light and 2 private property stop signs does not suggest he was "up to something". He was not driving at a high rate of speed and when approaching each intersection he paused. That tells me there is either an emergency or this person just wants to get to his destination quickly for whatever reason. So follow until suspect gives reason to think otherwise. Secondly when seeing Moats approach the hospital this rasies my alarm further. Is there really an emergency? Or perhaps something else. Taking the type of driving coupled with the fact there was no call for an emergency vehicle I'm gonna think that this is an emergency. Once Moats parked and the officer heard the story if he still feels a threat. Tell Moats I'll walk with you inside and check out your story.

This officer drew his weapon upon seeing people shoot out of the van which suggestes a type of temperment. People will say that officer cant just trust what people say. Thats true but that is no license to take out your weapon. You protect yourself with your vehicle. If passenger had not gotten out of vehicle you approach cautiously with hand on weapon. Since the family did jump out all the officer had to do was calmly ask the family to remain where they were (with hand still on weapon) and ask them why they drove in the manner in which they did. Then follow through with walking with family inside. But I can understand drawing the weapon at first but not the pointing of it.

The video clearly shows there is a problem with this particular officers thinking. And there is more evidence that suggests that this officer has problems. There are reports that he also doctored his reports to suggests his reasoning for chasing Moats. And he is caught on video admitting to the fact. If true be he will be fired.

Having had the displeasure of imvestigating these type of situations I'll say this the smartest thing the chief did was come out right away and express the displeasure of the department. Sometimes to their own demise police officer stand behind one another.

Their is no excuse for what happened. And anyone who tries and defends or dismiss or even gives an excuse for Officer Powell actions should honestly look at themselves. Because this officer was trained to protect and serve. Since there was no threat any good gets canceled out. There is no "well he did not know" there is no "well there is the possibility of." Police are trained to act on such situations. And at no particular time did this officer rely on that training, only on himself.

I'm not sure what temperment you are suggesting when an officer draws his weapon upon people "shooting out from the van", but I have to infer that you have only the investigative perspective of law enforcement. i say this because most Police Officers would say you are nuts for that kind of logic. The reality is that EVERY police officer that has proper training MAY draw when people bail out on a traffic stop. I really have a hard time believing that you would actually post this if you are a real law enforcement officer...it's just 180 degrees from reality. I'm curious, what would your "training" suggest you do when someone bails out on you?? Would you suffer a similar fate to the Oakland, Ca. officers?? Perhaps they went to the same training you did and didn't draw their gun when the "innocent motorist" got out of his car and walked back to them and shot both in the head. Frankly, your post lacks credibility from a law enforcement perspective...it's full of flawed thinking and conjecture. I have trained with several Texas Rangers and can honestly say, I've never met one who would share your point of view or reasoning. Maybe you were meaning you played baseball for the Rangers and I just misunderstood.

 

[trueblue1687]

That's an amazing jump in logic, especially since I never implied that.

Even an imbecile should realize a criminal who is truly involved in something shady is not going to attact attention to themselves. It is common sense.



If your mother is dying you are going to care what some imbecile cop is doing? Few people are going to behave any differently. If you believe otherwise, you are either deluding yourself or need to actually face a situation like that.



So every police officer nationwide receives a mandate to draw his weapon on every single stop because two officers in Oakland were killed by a lunatic after a routine stop?

And again, the murderer in Oakland was not driving around conspicously with his flashers on.

Well, my jump in logic comes from your statement that his flashers should be an obvious sign he certainly would not be a law breaker. To your point about drawing attention to wrong doing.. I once stopped a fella going 125 miles an hour on the interstate...he was muling 22 kilos of cocaine from Texas to Ohio. The offender in Oakland was stopped for an expired tag...an even lesser offense than the traffic light fiasco this cop got into. Lastly, you should care what the cop says, because..if he really is an embecile and you don't comply...as required by law...you could likely be complaining from a hospital bed or worse. Not trying to jump on you specifically, but your logic typifies that of most folks and it just isn't reality. In the real world, we would fire someone who thought like you because they would be a liability to every other member ...not to mention the people they serve. I would encourage you to try and do a ride along with your local PD...it would probably change your opinion and give some real insight besides reading it in the paper or on the web.

 

[trueblue1687]

There was nothing "appearing" insensitive. He was. Even after it was obvious he was proven wrong and had several others pointing out his continued inappropriate behavior.



He did many things wrong. Including drawing his firearm, losing his patience and obviously, not even offering an apology even after their story checked out.



And the offense was, oh my, brace yourselves--running a redlight and stop signs.

He was not weaving, driving recklessly or endangering anyone.



And like many situations like this, her lack of respect for his "authority" caused him to lose his cool and act like an unprofessional imbecile. He got frustrated and went above and beyond protecting himself. He wasn't protecting himself when he was arguing about towing the vehicle. He did not like being challenged and responded with emotion of his own.



Officers pull their firearms on people at traffic stops every day? I must live a sheltered and uninformed existence.

I can only say that indeed you must live a sheltered and uninformed existence. If he truly did something wrong, he would have been FIRED. It can't get any simpler! Instead he got a PAID vacation to paint a self preserving picture of concern from the chief. In reality, the chief is probably only concerned about how it makes HIM look. THAT, my friend, is reality. Again, go for a ride along with your PD...I think the light will come on when you see the reall world and not read about it in a newspaper. The guy made mistakes, but you have yet to point out what he did PROCEDURALLY wrong. His mistake was taking too long to discern what was happening and then letting a loud mouth dictate what he did on his stop...in essence letting his ego dictate the stop. It really is that simple. That is why the officer has not been fired...he did nothing wrong other than APPEARING insensitive. It's not his fault the woman was dying or that Moats was somewhere else besides the hospital and had to run a red light to get there "in time". Trust me...if he could be fired, then he would be. It would get the chief alot of mileage with the media and he would look like a hero for his next gig.

 

[Jon88]

Well, my jump in logic comes from your statement that his flashers should be an obvious sign he certainly would not be a law breaker. To your point about drawing attention to wrong doing.. I once stopped a fella going 125 miles an hour on the interstate...he was muling 22 kilos of cocaine from Texas to Ohio. .

Was he a Cowboy?

 

[trueblue1687]

Was he a Cowboy?

No, but he would have liked to be

 

[Jon88]

No, but he would have liked to be

If I'm a cop and I stop a Cowboy other than Bobby Carpenter or Greg Ellis he's getting off with a warning.

 

[Alexander]

Well, my jump in logic comes from your statement that his flashers should be an obvious sign he certainly would not be a law breaker. To your point about drawing attention to wrong doing.. I once stopped a fella going 125 miles an hour on the interstate...he was muling 22 kilos of cocaine from Texas to Ohio. The offender in Oakland was stopped for an expired tag...an even lesser offense than the traffic light fiasco this cop got into.

Both of these examples are not nearly as obvious in terms of attracting attention to the vehicle. Someone driving fast or having an expired tag are insanely stupid. To me, caution lights are obvious visual cues that the driver of the vehicle is either notifying other motorists of an issue or is in distress. Sorry, your logic again is pretty bad, mostly because you are making excuses for one of your own.

Lastly, you should care what the cop says, because..if he really is an embecile and you don't comply...as required by law...you could likely be complaining from a hospital bed or worse.

This is a nice mentality. So basically, not complying is a mandate to be abused severely to the point of hospitalization or even "worse"? LOL

Not trying to jump on you specifically, but your logic typifies that of most folks and it just isn't reality.

YOUR reality from a police perspective. Get that straight.

 

[Hostile]

His Chief (which for all intents and purposes has the final say in EVERY matter of the department...therefore IS the department) not backing him up is certainly not indicative of being right or wrong. It is called self preservation in most instances. The chief (as opposed to a Sheriff) is appointed and can be replaced ANY time. More likely, the chief was bombarded with calls from the media and responded w/ paid admin leave....which tells the real story. That is, the officer did nothing procedurally wrong and there fore couldn't be truly "disciplined". He got a paid vacation essentially. If police departments were "fiercely loyal" to officers (they're not...in fact they routinely go WAY overboard to avoid any appearance of impropriety), then there would be no unions or PBA, FOP, etc. The officer suffered from lack of experience or was over zealous...but otherwise did nothing procedurally wrong. Not a popular perspective, but after nearly 20 years in law enforcement (and 10 in administrative positions)...I know what I'm talking about. If the officer had really screwed up, he would be unemployed. There is nothing to investigate here...it's all videoed.

Did I say he had done anything "procedurally wrong?" Uh, no I didn't. Here is what I did say.

I do not think he was unprofessional. In some ways he was too professional.

I did say he used poor judgment. His department and Chief are saying the same thing. I defended Moats as well as the Officer if you want to look at it real close beyond the line in big bold letter with a red NOT.

Since you so obviously missed it I will say it the same way as what you did bother to read last time.

He remembered the his Oath to Protect. He forgot his Oath to Serve.

He was too focused on the running of a red light to pull his head out of his *** and realize that really nice people needed him to understand something that he absolutely refused to. He protected the laws of Dallas, Texas. He did not serve the citizens he pulled over who were obviously not criminals.

He ignored hospital personnel and a Plano Officer. For what? So he could make a point to Ryan Moats about all the ways he could "screw him over?" Those are his words, not mine.

What if they had been taking a child who had ingested poison to the hospital? Would he have pulled his gun and demanded they stay in the car? What if he was delivering someone who had been shot?

He heard a reason for why they ran a red light. There was PLENTY of evidence to support their story including actual Hospital personnel telling him so.

He's young. He was not dangerous that I could see. He was however, being very stupid.

 

[Jon88]

Did I say he had done anything "procedurally wrong?" Uh, no I didn't. Here is what I did say.



I did say he used poor judgment. His department and Chief are saying the same thing. I defended Moats as well as the Officer if you want to look at it real close beyond the line in big bold letter with a red NOT.

Since you so obviously missed it I will say it the same way as what you did bother to read last time.

He remembered the his Oath to Protect. He forgot his Oath to Serve.

He was too focused on the running of a red light to pull his head out of his *** and realize that really nice people needed him to understand something that he absolutely refused to. He protected the laws of Dallas, Texas. He did not serve the citizens he pulled over who were obviously not criminals.

He ignored hospital personnel and a Plano Officer. For what? So he could make a point to Ryan Moats about all the ways he could "screw him over?" Those are his words, not mine.

What if they had been taking a child who had ingested poison to the hospital? Would he have pulled his gun and demanded they stay in the car? What if he was delivering someone who had been shot?

He heard a reason for why they ran a red light. There was PLENTY of evidence to support their story including actual Hospital personnel telling him so.

He's young. He was not dangerous that I could see. He was however, being very stupid.

Amen and amen.