Fasano instead of marcus mcneil... why?

[Hostile]

wow. just wow. so really missed a lot this off season.

No kidding. It's like he's been sound asleep for 3 months.

 

[GoodOleDays]

Cogan thanks for making my point all the clearer. You liked Mangold, heck I might even like Mangold too. But what we want doesn't matter.. Bill loves LBers and TE's and theres nothing us as fans can do about it. He'll draft a mediocre TE or LB over a blue chip tackle or center even with a huge glaring need for an offensive lineman. Its logic that leaves my head spinning time and time again. It's not like we have Michael Vick as our QB whom can escape pressure and make plays happen with little to no protection, we've got Drew Bledsoe.. protection should be our #1 priority, but it doesn't appear to be.

How do you go into the draft with a glaring need at offensive line and not grab a single tackle, guard, or center until 7th round? Philly even grabbed Winston Justice and Max Jean-Gilles and they have a mobile Donovan McNabb.

 

[tomson75]

Cogan thanks for making my point all the clearer. You liked Mangold, heck I might even like Mangold too. But what we want doesn't matter.. Bill loves LBers and TE's and theres nothing us as fans can do about it. He'll draft a mediocre TE or LB over a blue chip tackle or center even with a huge glaring need for an offensive lineman. Its logic that leaves my head spinning time and time again. It's not like we have Michael Vick as our QB whom can escape pressure and make plays happen with little to no protection, we've got Drew Bledsoe.. protection should be our #1 priority, but it doesn't appear to be.

How do you go into the draft with a glaring need at offensive line and not grab a single tackle, guard, or center until 7th round? Philly even grabbed Winston Justice and Max Jean-Gilles and they have a mobile Donovan McNabb.

why is a TE or LB "mediocre" and a OT or OG "blue chip" when taken at the same time in the draft? perhaps your "opinion" is more established than your "logic".?

 

[GoodOleDays]

Fasano would of been there in the third, McNeil wouldn't of been.

 

[Hostile]

Fasano would of been there in the third, McNeil wouldn't of been.

Hatcher was the 3rd round goal, Fasano the 2nd, Carpenter the 1st. The Draft fell exactly as the Cowboys wanted it. How their fans wanted it simply doesn't balance out.

 

[DLCassidy]

Bill loves LBers and TE's and theres nothing us as fans can do about it.

So why whine about it?

He'll draft a mediocre TE or LB over a blue chip tackle or center even with a huge glaring need for an offensive lineman. Its logic that leaves my head spinning time and time again. It's not like we have Michael Vick as our QB whom can escape pressure and make plays happen with little to no protection, we've got Drew Bledsoe.. protection should be our #1 priority, but it doesn't appear to be.

Show me one place on the planet that had Mangold or McNeil rated higher than Bobby Carpenter. You can't because it's not true. And as was explained to you earlier, we were not looking at McNeil anyway. We were confident that the guy we were targeting, Daryn College, would be there after we traded down in the 2nd. A calculated risk that didn't work out. So unspin your head.

How do you go into the draft with a glaring need at offensive line and not grab a single tackle, guard, or center until 7th round? Philly even grabbed Winston Justice and Max Jean-Gilles and they have a mobile Donovan McNabb.

Philly did a good job taking those guys where they did, but neither are sure things, just good value picks. We were thinking about going after another lineman, Joe Toledo, in the 4th but Miami took him a couple picks before us. Bad luck but the list of guys we were interested in was relatively short.

 

[tomson75]

Fasano would of been there in the third, McNeil wouldn't of been.

oh, thats right. i forgot that all of the pre-draft magazines and so-called "experts", can predict the draft order. apparently, so can you.

the draft is a crap shoot. there is no way of telling who'll pan out and who won't. all any team can do is analize what information they can acquire on prospects and put it to use to make selections. i think the cowboys have done fairly well at this process during Parcell's tenure, something i think most fans and "experts" would agree on. judging from your posts, you don't, and you have that right, but lets not turn conjecture into fact.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I would have taken Mangold in the first, Winston in the second, and suddenly our weakest links, our RT & C positions, are solidified for the next 4-5 years, maybe more. Mangold could probably beat out anyone we have at that position this year, and Winston would either beat out someone for the RT or an OG position in 2007.

BP & gang said there wasn't anyone available when we drafted that would have came in and upgraded any position on the line. We passed on those guys for a reason. Why is that so hard for some to understand?

 

[big dog cowboy]

Hatcher was the 3rd round goal, Fasano the 2nd, Carpenter the 1st. The Draft fell exactly as the Cowboys wanted it. How their fans wanted it simply doesn't balance out.

How their fans wanted it doesn't matter.

 

[Clove]

I thought the pick was an epic mistake personally. We had a perfect first round choice, and then turn around and reach for someone you could've gotten in the 3rd.

I don't like, I didn't like it then, but if it turns out to be great, then I'm all for it. And I was one of the ones rooting for us to pick McNeil there also btw.

 

[cowboyjoe]

First, some things you have said are true,
McNeil does have a spinal condition with his back, which you dont know how long he could really play. Granted, he is a monster OT, but the condition is same one that retired Michael Irwin.

Second, the Cowboys wanted Colledge in 2nd, but he was grabbed by Packers right in front of us.

So, that meant taking the TE at high pick we had, was too high for him. So, we traded down, got some extra picks, and got TE Fasano.

Now, on to our ROT, I think that Rob Petti is the answer, sure he will never be an Erik Williams, but close I think. He hit the offseason really hard, improved his stamina, strength, now benches over 400 pounds, got smaller in waist to stay with DE's.

On to drafting pure offensive linemen in 1st, 2nd and 3rd round, it takes offensive linemen 3 years mostly to mature. Look at Mark Stepnoski, or Erik Williams as example, both didnt really do anything until 3rd year. Next, then the offensive linemen have to jell together, which generally takes 3 years working together.

Even defensive linemen normally take 2-3 years to hit their capabilities. For example, Randy White, Harvey Martin, Ed too tall Jones are prime examples. Martin in 1973, Ed Jones in 74, Randy White in 75. Those guys didnt come on until 1975, they hit their peak as you all know in 1977.

Back to offensive linemen, we also have Marc Colombo too, reports are that he is having a great return to former form before he had that devastating kneecap loss. Reports are stating that he is right behind Petti. So, we have 2 offensive tackels at ROT that can play. Next, we have Flozell Adams coming back from knee injury, and to back him up we have Fabini whom is coming back from a torn chest pectoral muscle. He can play both offensive linemen OT positon.

Then, we have Al Johnson whom finally woke up, and has put on about 17 pounds of solid muscle and strength. Behind him we have Gurode.

Then at OG we have Riveria and Kosier, and this is a make it or break season for Stephen Peterman, whom is a huge massive OG, big boned player. Last but not least we have Pat McQuistan, whom is twin brother of the other McQuistan whom even Gil Brandt liked, and for another reminder. Take this to heart, Bill Parcells history has always been with offensive linemen with drafting good ones in 4th to 6th round. Examples are Fabini, and the other OT we got from the Jets in 2003 as a free agent. Both were good players in their young career.

So, I think are offensive line will be ok this year. Granted we need another good offensive linemen in draft, but hopefully we can fill that position in next years draft with a young offensive linemen. I think Parcells has learned his lesson about drafting injury prone offensive linemen like Jacob Rogers (so a example could be Marcus McNeil with that spinal condition and back injury).

Just my thoughts.

 

[big dog cowboy]

cowboyjoe = voice of reason.

 

[playit12]

Why would it have to be Petitti OR McNeil?? I thought that at EVERY position, you want as many quality players as you can get. Look at LB. We had James, Ware, Ayodele, Boiman, Singleton, Burnett, Fowler, Shanle, etc. Why in the world would you pick Carpenter over Mangold AND Burnett? I mean, Burnett the second rounder from last year was drafted to play OLB opposite Ware, then we draft Carpenter so Burnett can be benched after he heals, right?! Then, we had a chance to grab the best Center in the draft, who I wanted, and we don't take him. That means two for one, right?

Do you see how your rationale makes no sense at all? I would have taken Winston or Spencer in the second myself, but again, how would that be taking Winston, and getting rid of Petitti & Fasano? If taking an OT in the second rd. means a rookie sends Petitti to the bench, then he doesn't belong starting in the first place, and we've just improved ourselves, right? We still would have taken a quality TE in the 3rd rd., but that's not the point. The point is that you take a player where you have the weakest link. If anyone out there thinks our weakest link last year was LB, you need to stop smoking that stuff.

I would have taken Mangold in the first, Winston in the second, and suddenly our weakest links, our RT & C positions, are solidified for the next 4-5 years, maybe more. Mangold could probably beat out anyone we have at that position this year, and Winston would either beat out someone for the RT or an OG position in 2007. In the mean time, we have more quality depth on our offensive line than we've had since the mid-90s, whether it's the rookies backing up, or the players they beat out.

You can't be great at all positions at all times. We can't start a first round pick at all 22 spots and special teams.

So realizing that, you need to prioritize and define what kind of value you can afford to lock up at each position.

In a 3-4 defense the success or failure of the defense against the pass falls on the ability to do two things. First to provide for a dependable pocket colapsing (your front 3 guys) and second to have OLBs that can rush the passer with dependable success. We addressed most of those issues in last years draft and FA, but still had one glaring problem. We didn't have a second OLB on the roster that could be expected to provide a credible pass rushing threat and still hold up against the run. Without that, teams were free to always account for Ware as a rusher on every play. They shifted the LT directly at Ware and didn't allocate a lineman to the opposite OLB. They felt, accurately, that the back could adequately block whomever was rushing from that side, outside of the DE. Because of that, Ware was limited in reaching his full ability and our pass defense was forced to rely on excellent coverage. Long pass plays (a la Santana Moss) don't happen when you have a reliable pass rush. Therefore, OLB was a need position.

Second, there is an issue of draft position value. All teams, and coaches, value different positions according to their own standard. BP clearly places a strong value on interior lineman compared to tackles. While this might seem in direct conflict with the rest of the league, it makes sense in the same way that using the 3-4 makes sense when the rest of the league is playing a 4-3. The cost of a tackle is much higher than the cost of an interior lineman. Other teams might have superior tackles and substandard gaurds and centers. In this scheme they will likely need to account for any pass rush by either allocating a back to block any interior rushers or forcing the line to squeeze the pocket inwards to reduce space. This method suffers from a few flaws. It creates a lot of traffic in the interior of the line and it places a back as an important blocking element to a much much larger lineman. On the other hand, placing the emphasis on the interior allows you to draft better players for less money (overall across the line) while instead having to account for edge rushers. BP uses TEs to account for edge rushers thus creating a more favorable match up. Much larger TEs (compared to backs) blocking relatively small DEs (compared to DTs). It also puts the potential weapon (either the back or TE) closer to the line of scrimage and thus closer to becoming a real outlet in the pass play. It does have some problems. If both tackles are weak then you end up using two TEs where on the interior you could have used just one back. However, BP lucked into having a very good LT already on roster. It also means that the QB will recieve more presure the further he extends out of the pocket. But when was the last time that Bledsoe went out of the pocket on his own volition? If I had McNabb or Brunell in my backfield, I might want to leave the idea of heading out of the pocket as a possibility by having better and more athletic tackles. Likewise I wouldn't worry as much about the slower interior rush that my QB could probably avoid.

In the end it's about cost. You can only tie up so much money (FA contracts) and resources (high draft picks) into the unit (O-Line). Parcells feels he can find top rate OG and OC talent in the second round but only second rate (or worse) tackle talent in the same position.

As for last year, the plan was foiled for two reasons.

First, Adams went down meaning that both tackles needed TE protection.

Second, keeping both TEs in to help with coverage meant using only two recievers and one back. Those two recievers (Glenn and Keyshawn) were not able to reliable be a threat against the coverage they faced. Glenn was always pulling a safety over the top and Key couldn't seperate from man coverage. This would have been helped if a TE was free to split the coverage, but they were needed to at least chip a blocker at the line after Flozell went down.

Bill address both issues this year. He gets Adams back and he got better depth than we had last year at OT. He also signed a better second reciever that can get seperation from man coverage in case he does have to keep in more TE help. This year will be telling to see if this plan works.

As for drafting according this this plan with our first pick... that would mean either getting a guard, center, or TE. We didn't have pressing need along the inside of the line. KC Joyner breaks down our interior lineman and found that all (including Kyle) had fairly good years. Drafing a player in the first in those positions is reserved for guys that are going to start right away. We just didn't have as pressing a need there. As for TE, it's generally difficult to get a dual purpose TE in the first. Most first round TEs are pass catchers (Todd Heaps) and not blockers. Those guys are generally only average at both skills and fall accordingly to the second or third rounds.

 

[cowboyjoe]

I forgot to mention as one guy wrote earlier, in double TE blocking schemes we are going to use, you need 2 quality TEs, Since we lost Campbell, whom I believe was on downside of his career with injuries.

Fasano, will never be no Jason Witten, he isnt as fast as Witten, but he is close to reports a better blocker, and you need that since Witten will mostly be used to catch the ball.

As our 3rd TE, we have Hannam, Ryan, another good point by a guy in post, Parcells loves linebackers and TE's. Remember he told Jerry Jones he would draft one every year. He didnt in 2005, but did other years.

Another thing to think about, are the New England Patriots, if you have kept us with their drafts, they have taken TE's hight in the draft, at least 3 in last 5 years. The Patriots have taken defensive linemen, offensive linemen & TE's high in the draft. This year of course they took a RB, whom Parcells liked.

So, all in all, we are getting closer to having a great defensive team with Marcus Spears, Chris Canty, Jason Hatcher, Ellis, Demarcus Ware, Thompson, Ratlliff at defensive line, (Stanley rookie year), Carpenter, James, Burnett,Akin, Shane, and Newman, Henry, Glenn, Jones,Williams, Beriaut, Watkins, Coleman, Davis.

So, if our offense with Vendrjact, kicker, and TO can score to keep us in games, along with Julious Jones finally turning corner (remember Tiki Barber, he didnt hit his prime until his 3rd year, he had injury and fumble problems his first 2 years. So, if offense can keep us in games until the defense can jell, then look out. Even JJT Jacque Taylor whom tells it like it is, said at end of year in 2006 our defense will be nasty and mean.

So, I have high hopes for our offensive line, along with defense. ONLY, 2 areas that I see a weakness are backup quality QB if Bledsoe goes down, God forbid, and now a safety, free safety if Keith Davis has serious injury. Reports are that it isnt, but you never know, and what Parcells will do, if Davis was at a place he wasnt suppose to be. I dont think he was, reports are that he was coming back from vacation, may have been a car hijacking, etc.

Everywhere else we have quality backups now.

 

[Billy Bullocks]

That's not the whole ledger.

Fasano & Petitti or Marcus McNeil?

I'll take 2 potential starters over 1.

and once again logic prevails

 

[Hostile]

and once again logic prevails

I got lucky.

 

[cowboyjoe]

Right hostile, good post, another point to accent that. I am sure everyone is aware of Jay Novachek, he was a great receiving TE, but poor blocker his first year here. He improved, but still not great, he would mainly just get in the way.

Fasano, is more of a Campbell, just a little better receiver than Dan Campbell was, but better blocker even at college level than Witten was.

I am sure your all aware of Drew Pearson & Troy Aikman and Babe were. I cant count the times that they would reply last year, when Witten had to stay in to block after Flozell went down. And they would say that the defensive end or bllitzing linebacker would come across Witten's face and make the tackle on our running back or QB.

Dont get me wrong, I love Witten, but his blocking is just adequate. Hopefully, it is better some this year.

 

[Prossman]

I was furious that we passed on Mcneil. There was a ton of questions concerning his back before the draft. The rumour was he had the same degenrating disc problem that Irvin had. Scouts said he could barely bend over for most of last year. right before the draft NFL doctors said he was OK.
I had no clue we were even looking at another tightend, after signing Hannam. After the shock wore off, Fasano has a ton going for him includeing playing in our offense last season, at Notre Dame, so the transition should be a little easier for him. Prossman

 

[CrazyCowboy]

I like the pick now, but I also understand your concerns.

 

[The Realist]

Fasano just a slightly better receiver than Campbell?

Fasano had 90 catches in 3 years.

That's elite status in my book.

I'd like to see the 3 year numbers on Shockey, KWII, and Vernon Davis.

I doubt Campbell had half that in 4 years at A&M.