Fisher: Cowboys Leadership Working With Jones On A Unified Anthem

[FuzzyLumpkins]

For sure, the issue is there's a much larger proportion of the black population that lives in impoverished areas than their white counterparts.

That's a huge issue in America, and one I fully support in trying to rectify. I don't know what motivations someone could have to want to keep people in poverty.

But that's a different argument.

What this anthem protest is about is the perceived 'epidemic' of cops shooting black men. But when you standardize for crime rates, a white criminal is actually more likely to be shot.

It's simply the result of an alarming disparity in violent crime within black populations. That's the issue, not racist cops. The cops are going to respond to where violent crime happens. Shootings are rare, but will always be a possibility in those situations. Unfortunately, it's more often than not an impoverished black community where these violent crimes occur.

That's the issue many people have with the movement. It's wrongly focusing on cops, and not paying any mind to the poverty and crime epidemic in black communities.

You familiar with broken windows policing? It's basically the idea that police need to crackdown on even minor infractions in poor neighborhoods thinking that fixing windows and loitering is going to reduce serious crime. The proof is in the pudding as poor neighborhoods are more violent than ever. It's still common policy.

I'm sure there are racist cops but I don't think that is really the issue. I think cops are like most everyone and not some special case. Nonetheless it is hard to argue the DoJ reports from Ferguson and Baltimore where it was revealed that a minority was 4 times as likely to be detained by police than a caucasian. The stuff they found in the email logs and such was pretty alarming IMO. That being said I don't think that they are all that different than the population at large given my experience. There is a lot of racial bias inherent in people that they are not aware of.

My issue is not with the beat cops and detectives out on the street. I have an immense amount of respect for the job they do. I think they need more pay and more training. My issue is with the leadership, their unions, and the institutions that have arisen over the past 40 years since Nixon started this police state.

There is something called the police bill of rights and 48 states have them. What they do is give all kinds of protections to cops during investigations and prosecutions. Stuff like preventing civilian review boards, only allowing one person to interrogate them with an attorney and union rep present, only during certain hours, letting them know who their accuser is before questioning, and giving them 3 days before interrogation can begin. There are dozens of such protections. Here is an awesome article about it from Reason:

http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/19/how-special-rights-for-law-enforcement-m

Compounding that is how jurisdiction works in police case. When a cop is accused of a crime. It is normally his own precinct that does the investigation and the local DA office that prosecutes him. That means its his friends and coworkers that work with him. The prosecutor would likely have relied on him for testimony in cases. When you consider the level of esprit de corps they push with that Thin Blue Line propaganda what you end up with is an untenable conflict of interest.

Compounding the issue are their unions. the US right is rabid in fighting against the AFL-CIO, UAW, teachers unions etc. Police unions though get a pass. The left doesn't do squat either. What you end up with is a government union with completely unchecked power. They are the ones that passed those LEOBOR and maintain the good ole boy system.

There are bad cops. The problem is that it is impossible to fire them or do anything about them for the reason I just mentioned. Over the last 30 years it has eroded trust in police in certain municipalities.

Where the rubber meets the road in terms of policy is repealing LEOBOR, creating independent enforcement and prosecution for LEO, reviewing the use of force standards, getting police more and better training, and creating a real check on the power of police unions and not giving them a pass.

I don't see why anyone other than police leadership would be against that.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

wow.

I don't pay much attention to user names, but I've taken note of yours, and always found you to be a really thoughtful and intelligent poster. Extremely surprised at your take. Disappointing

I'm equally disappointed in your stance. I've asked for specific examples of institutional racism and have yet to see a legitimate response from something that is prevalent today. Just because one says that there's institutional racism doesn't mean that's the case.

Yet we still see people, and the media, point to Mike Brown who was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to have attacked Darren Wilson after he strong-armed a store owner. Or Trayvon Martin where the scientific evidence showed what George Zimmerman claimed happen was very possible. Or the complete ignorance that you are statistically much more likely to be killed by police if you're a white criminal than if you are black criminal. Or the complete ignorance towards the numbers showing that Asians are by far the least likely to be killed by police...even less than whites.

I've seen people on this very forum question why police have different rights than citizens, claim that your life shouldn't be in danger if you resist arrest and claim that that when a cop screws up he's 'tried in front of his buddies' and that will get the off scot free.

Nobody here is stating that individual based racism doesn't exist. Nobody here is for police brutality. Nobody here is for racial inequality. And nobody here is for institutional racism.

But some of us here are against misplaced accusations of institutional racism and misplaced accusations of police brutality as part of institutional racism. And we are against this farcical protest of the Anthem.

Some get it...some don't.





YR

 

[Yakuza Rich]

LOL! Right. You don't even know the source of the study I posted, but it's "misleading" and "inaccurate."

Why would statistics on blacks being arrested more (a socio-economic issue) have ANYTHING to do with why they're being pulled over by cops more? That's what racial profiling IS.

Your speculation that blacks may just be generally worse drivers or more likely to DESERVE to be pulled over is as overtly racist as it gets. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I know you're not.

Again, you completely ignored my point and just went with your preset answer.

Maryland is 27% black. Out of 29 possible crimes listed in the Maryland database the only crime where the % of blacks arrested is the equivalent of the black population is...DUI.

The study quoted is incomplete because it fails to explain why blacks were pulled over in terms of the possible violation. The study is biased because it just assumes that blacks are being pulled over more, so the biased conclusion is it must be racism and profiling.

I submit that given that in 28 crimes listed by Maryland where blacks are arrested at a much greater % than the population that there is a good chance that things like moving violations, not meeting requirements for an automobile, etc. are also likely to follow the same type of trend. Especially given that the one crime that didn't follow this trend was....DUI.





YR

 

[Proof]

I'm equally disappointed in your stance. I've asked for specific examples of institutional racism and have yet to see a legitimate response from something that is prevalent today. Just because one says that there's institutional racism doesn't mean that's the case.

YR

Institutional racism (also known as institutionalized racism) is a form of racism expressed in the practice of social and political institutions. Institutional racism is also racism by individuals or informal social groups,[1] governed by behavioral norms that support racist thinking and foment active racism. It is reflected in disparities regarding wealth, income, criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power and education, among other things. Whether implicitly or explicitly expressed, institutional racism occurs when a certain group is targeted and discriminated against based upon race. Institutional racism is mostly implicit, so it is often unnoticed.

Jim Crow, New Jim Crow, Redlining, War on Drugs, Stop and Frisk, Mandatory Minimums, Predatory Loans, Wealth Disparity etc

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...e-supreme-court-backs-disparate-impact-claims
Texas Department of housing issued low income housing tax credits to 92 pct non white neighborhoods contributing futher to segregated housing patterns


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036680
Black juveniles more likely to be viewed as adult offenders than white juveniles

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html
White sounding names 1.5 times more likely to receive call back


https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002
Racial Gap in Sentencing


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...they-did-50-years-ago/?utm_term=.e0ad68722d13
HUD's analysis concludes Wisconsin bank disproportionately denied qualified loan applicants in predominantly minority neighborhoods

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...justice_system_eight_charts_illustrating.html
Eight charts that show how the justice system is stacked against black americans

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/20/black-college-graduates_n_5358983.html
Unemployment rate for black college grounds nearly twice as much as other college grads

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/07/politics/blacks-wrongful-convictions-study/index.html
Black people more likely to be wrongfully convicted

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-discipline-snapshot.pdf
Black students starting from pre-school, and including students with disabilities disproportionately suspended/expelled/disciplined


Checkout the documentary 13th on Netflix


and this article should really be the defacto response

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-benn/next-time-someone-asks-yo_b_12436340.html

 

[endersdragon]

If all 32 teams follow suit no one can complain because it's no longer about the flag, it's about unifying together, then whoever wants to protest after than can in peace. Genius move by Jones or whoever thought it up. They are telling Trump to stay out of the NFL, nothing more.

 

[Philmonroe]

National Anthem is not the venue, IMO. Perfectly fine with their message and unity. I will be upset with any player that sits/kneels. Stand up and lock arms or something.

Why can't people be honest because this isn't the right place is bogus. When has there ever been this right time for you protest? People are always going to complain. If I was a player and said I don't want to hear about 9'11 because I just want sports people would be mad and we know it. That's how it works or else you'd just do like you do anyway and don't give a dang about things you don't care about. Also I think people make too big of a deal about it anyway. Once the game starts it's done but some people just want to be upset. How often do they really bring it up during the game?

 

[Philmonroe]

I guarantee many will have regrets. Once you show disrespect to the flag, our servicemen, and our country, you can't take it back. That's one of my main issues with these players. They say they don't mean any disrespect but then they do the most disrespectful thing you can do. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Should we let racists off the hook if they preface their hate with "I don't mean to be racist but..."?

How can it be so disrespectful that people using the bathroom and getting food while it's being done? Also if it meant so much why don't they play it every day at every job? Y'all been brainwashed and the flag code said the NFL been disrespecting the flag so if you care so much about it do something about that.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Institutional racism (also known as institutionalized racism) is a form of racism expressed in the practice of social and political institutions. Institutional racism is also racism by individuals or informal social groups,[1] governed by behavioral norms that support racist thinking and foment active racism. It is reflected in disparities regarding wealth, income, criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power and education, among other things. Whether implicitly or explicitly expressed, institutional racism occurs when a certain group is targeted and discriminated against based upon race. Institutional racism is mostly implicit, so it is often unnoticed.

Jim Crow, New Jim Crow, Redlining, War on Drugs, Stop and Frisk, Mandatory Minimums, Predatory Loans, Wealth Disparity, Criminal Voter act

Supreme Court rules on 'Disparate Impact'

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...e-supreme-court-backs-disparate-impact-claims

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036680
Black juveniles more likely to be viewed as adult offenders than white juveniles

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html
White sounding names 1.5 times more likely to receive call back


https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002
Racial Gap in Sentencing


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...they-did-50-years-ago/?utm_term=.e0ad68722d13
HUD's analysis concludes Wisconsin bank disproportionately denied qualified loan applicants in predominantly minority neighborhoods

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...justice_system_eight_charts_illustrating.html
Eight charts that show how the justice system is stacked against black americans

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/20/black-college-graduates_n_5358983.html
Unemployment rate for black college grounds nearly twice as much as other college grads

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/07/politics/blacks-wrongful-convictions-study/index.html
Black people more likely to be wrongfully convicted

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/crdc-discipline-snapshot.pdf
Black students starting from pre-school, and including students with disabilities disproportionately suspended/expelled/disciplined


Checkout the documentary 13th on Netflix


and this article should really be the defacto response

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-benn/next-time-someone-asks-yo_b_12436340.html

1. Jim Crow, redlining, etc were all taking place over 20 years ago. Some have taken place over 50 years ago. Again, I want prevalent institutional racism *today*. I've completely agreed that institutional racism has existed in this country.

2. Stop and frisk was instituted in NYC as a form of counter-terrorism which includes whites like Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh who committed horrendous acts of terror in major cities in the US. Every study has shown that blacks and hispanics were 'under-stopped' with regards to their population size and the crime rates of the areas that they are stopped and frisked. In fact, there are studies that suggest that stop and frisk have saved lives of blacks and hispanics in the communities. NYC averaged 6 murders a day in 1990 and now it's down to roughly 1 murder per day.

3. The claims that blacks are more unfairly sentenced that whites at this current time comes vastly from drug offenses. What the studies have struggled to determine is the seriousness of the drug offense. Blacks have also been far more likely to enter a plea of not guilty which means if they are convicted they are going to receive a harsher sentence. Finally, whites do tend to make more money and therefore can hire more expensive and better attorneys. Much like Donte Stallworth was able to buy the best attorneys he could find and ended up killing a man and serving 30 days in county jail. If that were somebody without the wealth of Stallworth, we would be spending a few years in prison.

4. Black sounding names not being called back isn't institutional racism. It's individual racism.

5. Black people being wrongfully committed is the residue of the disproportionate amount of crime that comes from the black community. For instance, the one crime where there is not a disproportionate amount of blacks being arrested is with DUI. This is by and large a white oriented crime. And it's also a crime that a disproportionate amount of white people are wrongfully convicted of. With crime comes people that will be wrongfully convicted of crime.

6. Black children being disproportionately expelled/suspended/whatever from school only shows the data of the % of black populations in schools and the % that went on to be suspended. Again, it's an incomplete study because it doesn't show why black children were suspended and it's a biased study because it assumes that it must be racism for black children to be suspended at a disproportionate rate to their population.

We have discussed the Maryland crime statistics where for 29 crimes that have been categorized by the state, only 1 of those crimes did not have disproportionate amount of blacks being arrested for them...DUI.

In Maryland alone, which is 27% black...blacks accounted for 91% of gambling charges, 86% of curfew charges, 79% of robberies, 67% of weapons charges, 63% of drugs charges, 62% of disorderly conduct, 60% of felonious assault and 60% of stolen property charges.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that children that come from disproportionately violent and criminal environments are more likely to act violent and/or criminal themselves and that would get them suspended/expelled from school.

I will have to look at the Disparate Impact on housing in Texas...I'm not familiar with that case




YR

 

[Proof]

1. Jim Crow, redlining, etc were all taking place over 20 years ago. Some have taken place over 50 years ago. Again, I want prevalent institutional racism *today*. I've completely agreed that institutional racism has existed in this country.

That’s why those were grouped together with no ‘current’ examples. They’re unarguably sewn into the fabric of the country with lasting effects that impact every other example.

2. Stop and frisk was instituted in NYC as a form of counter-terrorism which includes whites like Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh who committed horrendous acts of terror in major cities in the US. Every study has shown that blacks and hispanics were 'under-stopped' with regards to their population size and the crime rates of the areas that they are stopped and frisked. In fact, there are studies that suggest that stop and frisk have saved lives of blacks and hispanics in the communities. NYC averaged 6 murders a day in 1990 and now it's down to roughly 1 murder per day.

Every study has shown blacks and Hispanics were understopped in regards to their population size? Huh??? Categorically false. Not even remotely true, what are you talking about?

3. The claims that blacks are more unfairly sentenced that whites at this current time comes vastly from drug offenses. What the studies have struggled to determine is the seriousness of the drug offense. Blacks have also been far more likely to enter a plea of not guilty which means if they are convicted they are going to receive a harsher sentence. Finally, whites do tend to make more money and therefore can hire more expensive and better attorneys. Much like Donte Stallworth was able to buy the best attorneys he could find and ended up killing a man and serving 30 days in county jail. If that were somebody without the wealth of Stallworth, we would be spending a few years in prison.

They’re not claims, they’re findings. Replace fairly (since it’s subjective) with more harshly. They are. If you want to focus on drugs, whites use more drugs overall and per capita but are sentenced less and less harshly. The differences in sentencing for crack (black drug) and coke (white drug) have long been documented. And whites having more money and being able to afford better representation / bail etc is wholly demonstrative of the institutionalized racism we’re discussing.

4. Black sounding names not being called back isn't institutional racism. It's individual racism.

Read the definition again “institutional racism is also racism by individuals and informal social groups governed by behavioral norms that support racist thinking and foment active racism”

That’s part of the problem is that it’s subtle and permeating and for folks like you who argue against the existence you casually shrug it aside like it’s a few bad apples. We all know there are overt racist people out there, this is about the overlooked potentially sub conscious racism that institutionalized racism is all about.



5. Black people being wrongfully committed is the residue of the disproportionate amount of crime that comes from the black community. For instance, the one crime where there is not a disproportionate amount of blacks being arrested is with DUI. This is by and large a white oriented crime. And it's also a crime that a disproportionate amount of white people are wrongfully convicted of. With crime comes people that will be wrongfully convicted of crime.

Do you even read the data? Even controlling for percentage of arrests, blacks are disproportionately wrongfully convicted compared to the percentage of whites arrested. Forget total Numbers, forget what you believe is the driving force behind arrests THE PERCENTAGE OF WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS (among total convictions) IS DISPROPORTIONATE. Along with a higher percentage of police misconduct.


6. Black children being disproportionately expelled/suspended/whatever from school only shows the data of the % of black populations in schools and the % that went on to be suspended. Again, it's an incomplete study because it doesn't show why black children were suspended and it's a biased study because it assumes that it must be racism for black children to be suspended at a disproportionate rate to their population.


I’ll strike this one from the record as you’re right I don’t have the data for what the suspensions /expulsions/ discipline are for and only included it because it jumped out to me as glaring. I’m applying my own bias to it. Not assuming it’s racism but just a very concerning group of statistics that follow a pattern. Funny enough though your conclusion is really an indictment on the general thinking and why it’s an issue. I’m trying to point out to you that blacks are disproportionately arrested / sentenced harsher/ wrongfully convicted and you say “they’re violent criminals so of course their children are”? Lol wat?

We have discussed the Maryland crime statistics where for 29 crimes that have been categorized by the state, only 1 of those crimes did not have disproportionate amount of blacks being arrested for them...DUI.

In Maryland alone, which is 27% black...blacks accounted for 91% of gambling charges, 86% of curfew charges, 79% of robberies, 67% of weapons charges, 63% of drugs charges, 62% of disorderly conduct, 60% of felonious assault and 60% of stolen property charges.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that children that come from disproportionately violent and criminal environments are more likely to act violent and/or criminal themselves and that would get them suspended/expelled from school.

I will have to look at the Disparate Impact on housing in Texas...I'm not familiar with that case


It’s thete for you to read. The Supreme Court ruled in that case I’m disparate impact which is a microcosm of the societal problem

YR

 

[Yakuza Rich]

It’s thete for you to read. The Supreme Court ruled in that case I’m disparate impact which is a microcosm of the societal problem

Good.

Let me read about it. It was far from a unanimous decision and I'm interested what the case entailed, why the majority of justices thought it was a case of disparate impact and why other justices felt it was not.

I also don't feel that a case of disparate impact involved with housing practices in Texas is automatically a microcosm of our entire society. I think that is a major part of the problem here...we need to treat cases on a case-by-case basis instead of just assuming that they are all inclusive of the problem.

That's what so many of these studies have done...they just assume because there is a disproportionate amount of blacks being pulled over, expelled from school, etc...that it *must* be due to racism and profiling. And it thus never helps solve the problem because it's built on a false pretense. And when there are actual cases of racial discrimination, those are now met with skepticism due to the presence of incomplete and biased studies as well the unwillingness to look at racial discrimination on a case-by-case basis.



YR

 

[Proof]

if you look at every example as an isolated incident that’s your perogstive, but no one is going to provide an exhaustive list and prove each case is definitively racist. It’s the sum of the parts and available with even a cursory look and objective eye/heart. It’s really the biggest problem in that it’s not always overt, not always intentional. A lot of systemic and institutionalized racism is nothing more than normalized bias due to the way things have been and how society has accepted it as way of life.

I also responded to most of your points last night, however I was tired and lazy and didn’t distinguish my replies in a very easy way.

Really though it’s pointless to continue the discussion as you don’t seem very open to the idea, and easily dismiss proof/examples. So we can just call it a day.

I’d recommend watching that Netflix documentary though. It’s really well done and was an eye opener for my (white) wife who previously had not put much stock into the idea.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

if you look at every example as an isolated incident that’s your perogstive, but no one is going to provide an exhaustive list and prove each case is definitively racist. It’s the sum of the parts and available with even a cursory look and objective eye/heart. It’s really the biggest problem in that it’s not always overt, not always intentional. A lot of systemic and institutionalized racism is nothing more than normalized bias due to the way things have been and how society has accepted it as way of life.

I also responded to most of your points last night, however I was tired and lazy and didn’t distinguish my replies in a very easy way.

Really though it’s pointless to continue the discussion as you don’t seem very open to the idea, and easily dismiss proof/examples. So we can just call it a day.

I’d recommend watching that Netflix documentary though. It’s really well done and was an eye opener for my (white) wife who previously had not put much stock into the idea.

If someone is inclined to do so, they can probably justify why 9/11 happened, the holocaust or any other negative thing and not come across sounding crazy, racist, ect. All it really shows is that someone is close minded on the subject and isn't open to different view points.

 

[zrinkill]

I dont see how you could be angry at what the Cowboys did ....... the did not kneel during the anthem or at the flag.

They showed their unity against racism, bigotry, and unlawful prosecution and did not disrespect any of our patriotic symbols.