Football 101: The Talent Evaluation Process

[Dodger12]

Exactly.

Remember the tempest in a teacup when Jeff Ireland went to Miami to be with Bill... The question on if he or Bill were really the GM depended on the "final say" test. Who has final say on personnel decisions? Because that's the GM.

(Everyone knew Ireland wouldn't really have final say there, but Jerry let him go anyway.)

Ciskowski clearly doesn't have "final say" here. He just evaluates the players and puts the draft board together.

Yep CL. Good point. And someone in this thread was hot on that very point, only to change it here when it suits his agenda.

 

[Dodger12]

Yeah, it's just flat out wrong to say Ciskowski has the role of GM here. He's the assistant director of personnel. He doesn't operate anything like a GM. Hence his desire to talk with the Colts about getting a promotion.

And if he were to have gotten hired by the Colts, we're supposed to believe he'd be doing the same things with the same responsibilities he has here. I'm not buying it.

 

[Hostile]

When a sentence ends with one of these "?", then it's a question everywhere except where you got your degree. Wasted money.......

I thought you were talking about the post you quoted.

 

[Randy White]

after reading Hostile's post and using some of the examples it mentions ( Mike Woicik was the most influential with me ) I think the Cowboys may not have Cordy Glenn rated as high as I have him.

I was looking back at some of his past games ( youtube of course ) trying to look for his weaknesses. He doesn't have many, but the one that stood out the most is that he's a leaner, as oppossed to a mauler. Don't get me wrong, I like that technique better because it forces the O-lineman to keep engaged with his opponent until the whistle blows, as oppossed to just trying to knock him out ( which often results in missed blocks and/or the defender coming back and making the play from the backside - see Leonard Davis ), however, the Cowboy might look at it as a sign of lack of strength. He also has some body fat issues he needs to work through, which is where Mike Woicik's opinion will come into heavy play here.

 

[Randy White]

Exactly, that 2009 draft was horribly weak, and was well reported going into that draft, everyone knew it was a weak class, and trading back was clearly a mistake in such a weak class and just missing on as a result. Would love that one back.

INCORRECT..

The Cowboys traded back AFTER they missed out on Max Unger, whom they liked very much. If anything, the criticism might be not trading UP for him, but that's out of their control because they'd have to find a partner first.

 

[Randy White]

The local guys have ramped it up this year admittedly, but I still think they aren't too hard on him..

Which rock have you been living under since 1989 ?

 

[Randy White]

" Yes.. yeeesss... I can feel it.. keep the hatred... "


I guess it's true when they say that thinking outside the box is not an easy thing to do. It's hard to let go of things that have been conditioned into the public's minds for nearly 25 years.. nevermind that facts show otherwise..

 

[Alexander]

Tell me how what Scott Pioli is doing now in Kansas City is so much different from what he did as Director of Player Personnel in New England.

You can ask Todd Haley what exactly it was that he does differently. He turned that organization on its ear. He put his stamp on it. He changed everything, from how they evaluated talent to the coffee they drank every single day. It's his team. Make no mistake about that.

Jerry Jones has been here since 1989. His way rules now as it has been since he bought the team. Nobody is changing anything. All we have had since Johnson left is a transient series of bodies, all operating under his rules.

Not every NFL GM or what have you operates like Jerry Jones does. I know you think we are no different with this ineffectual GM that does nothing but you are completely and utterly wrong.

You also seem to take pride is this thread where you try to "educate" people. Get over yourself.

It is no secret that Jones listens to who has his ear the most.

It is also no secret that his track record looks better when he has a real football mind bending that same ear.

There is a reason his drafts with Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells look better than those with Larry Lacewell or even Ciskowski for that matter.

He can't do it by himself because, well, he can't judge talent independently.

He interjects himself here and there when he takes a shine to a player but in the draft, he "listens". Not that it matters much because if he gets bad advice, we get a bad pick.

That is a lot different from how Steve Bisciotti does it with Newsome and how Kraft did it with Belichick and Pioli.

But just because he is inept at evaluating talent, don't try to insult everyone else's intelligence by implying that the other 31 GMs in the league do the exact same thing because they don't.

He is completely unique and therefore deserves to be judged accordingly.

 

[Alexander]

I guess we all need to start demonizing Ciskowski like we did Lacewell.

This way after another five years of futility, we will have another patsy to blame.

 

[cowboyeric8]

Other than '09 I like the way we have been drafting lately. So sue me.

 

[Hostile]

I guess we all need to start demonizing Ciskowski like we did Lacewell.

This way after another five years of futility, we will have another patsy to blame.

Oh trust me, I fully expect that to happen. The same way Stephen is all of the sudden, when for years he was seen as the hope for our future. I have zero faith in someone taking this information and putting it to rational use. It is already evidenced by how Parcells own words on the process are dismissed. History is constantly ignored. The fact that teams do things the same way we do is ignored. The fact that teams build to become contenders is ignored. Grab the pitchforks, light the torches, let's riot.

Brilliance as proven by Salem.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

Oh trust me, I fully expect that to happen. The same way Stephen is all of the sudden, when for years he was seen as the hope for our future. I have zero faith in someone taking this information and putting it to rational use. It is already evidenced by how Parcells own words on the process are dismissed. History is constantly ignored. The fact that teams do things the same way we do is ignored. The fact that teams build to become contenders is ignored. Grab the pitchforks, light the torches, let's riot.

Brilliance as proven by Salem.

What about Jerry's own words? He repeatedly states that "All decisions start and stop with him."
I'm not bashing just stating the fact that it's his own words that put him in the spot light of being the end all.

 

[Hostile]

What about Jerry's own words? He repeatedly states that "All decisions start and stop with him."
I'm not bashing just stating the fact that it's his own words that put him in the spot light of being the end all.

I call that accountability. Him taking the heat as the GM. If you believe that means he does all kinds of scouting, reading Kiper etc., then I don't know what to tell you. Why even have a scouting department if they aren't going to make any difference? He's all about money according to these same myths, why pay for guys who add nothing to his thinking? Why ask the Head Coach to be involved?

The lengths some of you will go to in order to perpetrate myths is remarkable.

Now, do not get me wrong. Jerry does attend the Senior Bowl, the Combines, etc. He does share his opinions. But much of his opinion is based upon what his football guys are seeing.

 

[Hostile]

One more comment on "patsies to blame."

If Jason Garrett turns this team around and they win the Super Bowl in 2012, what does that tell everyone who says "we will never win again with Jerry as GM?" Is he suddenly a genius to all of you because he built another winner?

I'll tell you what it tells me. That he hired the right Head Coach who inspired the right kinds of players.

If suddenly a bunch of people are giving Jerry all kinds of credit I am going to laugh my rear end off at the hypocrisy. Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't expect that. I expect the goalposts will have moved again in order to perpetuate more myths.

I'll be right where I have been the whole time, not looking for patsies, boogie men, and witches to burn. Don't forget they float like ducks.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

I call that accountability. Him taking the heat as the GM. If you believe that means he does all kinds of scouting, reading Kiper etc., then I don't know what to tell you. Why even have a scouting department if they aren't going to make any difference? He's all about money according to these same myths, why pay for guys who add nothing to his thinking? Why ask the Head Coach to be involved?

The lengths some of you will go to in order to perpetrate myths is remarkable.

Now, do not get me wrong. Jerry does attend the Senior Bowl, the Combines, etc. He does share his opinions. But much of his opinion is based upon what his football guys are seeing.

I knew that was going to be the answer. It's fine to take the heat but he's the cause of the heat also. He can't seem to get over the hump in player acquisition, holds on to players to long, over pays some after a few good games and goes for the shiny new toy to keep the Boys in the news rather than sensible FA.

If his advisers are giving him this advice then he needs to clean house of the advisers. I personally think it's a mixture of both. He's not surrounded by great people and he can't help himself from making dumb deals.

 

[Alexander]

The fact that teams do things the same way we do is ignored. The fact that teams build to become contenders is ignored.

We do not do them exactly the same though. The biggest difference is that these other teams do have the final decision makers (the GM) capable of interjecting their own perspective and if, necessary, make an educated call. Jerry Jones cannot and does not do that the majority of the time. People like Newsome, Pioli, Ted Thompson and others do attend the workouts and can make their own opinions. Outside of sitting in the bleachers in Indianapolis or strolling around with a press entourage at Mobile, Jones is at the mercy of his own limited scope.

 

[Hostile]

We do not do them exactly the same though. The biggest difference is that these other teams do have the final decision makers (the GM) capable of interjecting their own perspective and if, necessary, make an educated call. Jerry Jones cannot and does not do that the majority of the time. People like Newsome, Pioli, Ted Thompson and others do attend the workouts and can make their own opinions. Outside of sitting in the bleachers in Indianapolis or strolling around with a press entourage at Mobile, Jones is at the mercy of his own limited scope.

Tom Ciskowski.

 

[MinnesotaCowboy]

Another A+ for you, Hos............great post! You continually amaze me!

 

[Doomsay]

We do not do them exactly the same though. The biggest difference is that these other teams do have the final decision makers (the GM) capable of interjecting their own perspective and if, necessary, make an educated call. Jerry Jones cannot and does not do that the majority of the time. People like Newsome, Pioli, Ted Thompson and others do attend the workouts and can make their own opinions. Outside of sitting in the bleachers in Indianapolis or strolling around with a press entourage at Mobile, Jones is at the mercy of his own limited scope.

Tom Ciskowski.

But in the above context, Jerry is the final decision maker right. If I'm reading Alexander correctly.

 

[Alexander]

Tom Ciskowski.

Ciskowski does not have the final say. He does not have it any more than Jeff Ireland did or that Larry Lacewell did. Even Jones himself reduced Ireland's role down to "information gatherer" when he left. What does that tell you? Ciskowski is doing very much the same thing.

A simple example is the Ravens. Eric DeCosta sets up the draft and Ozzie Newsome has the final say. Steve Bisciotti has entrusted him to do just that. Bisciotti does not exercise the final say--Newsome, the GM, does that.

Basically Ciskowski is just like DeCosta. That is the whole reason DeCosta was such a hot commodity to be a GM. That is also why Ciskowski was looking to leave to become the Colts GM.

The difference between Jerry Jones and other GMs is that he is not involved in personally scouting Pro Days and workouts. That is why his decision making is dubious and he is at the mercy of whatever information is put in front of him. In other words, he is the most handicapped final decision maker in the NFL as he does not even have his own first person experience to compare off of the information he receives.