Franchise QB's?

[kartr]

Who are the have's and the have nots?

I would say that the following are the have's:

New England - Brady
Cincinnati - Palmer
Pittsburgh - Roeth
Indy - Manning
Jags - Lefty
Houston - Carr
Denver - Snake
Kansas City - Green
San Diego - Brees
Gints - Manning
Philly - McNappie
Chicago - Grossman
Vikes - Culpepper
Green Bay - Favre
Buff''s - JPL
Bucs - Simms
Carolina - Delhomme
Atlanta - Vick


Have Nots

Miami
Jets
Baltimore
Cleveland
Tenn
Oak
Skinz
Pokes
Lions
NO

Of the 18 total teams listed as Haves, only Houston (don't know if Carr is really there franchise), KC (Close but no sigar), San Diego (Ditto), Vikes (Injured), GB (Favre retired), Buff's (JP too young yet) and Atlanta (in it for most of the year) did not make the playoffs. That's 11 of 18.

Of the have nots, 10 teams total, only 1 made the playoffs. That was the skinz who arguably have a franchise calibure QB if a bit past his prime. Regardless, I did not list him as such because I don't view him as a franchise talent any longer.

To me, that kinda says it all.

For the most part I agree with you, but I have to disagree with you on Carr and Grossman. Neither has proven nothing and Grossman can't even stay healthy for an entire season as for Brunell, he had a great year and as long as he's healthy, I don't see why he wont have a better year next year.

 

[jterrell]

I think that Roeth is going to improve by leaps and bounds over the next two years. I watched him play while at Miami of Ohio and I am convinced he can throw the football. It is a maturation process. The Steelers are lucky in that they've managed to get him a great deal of invaluable experience while still staying competative and actually winning a championship. In another year or two, they are going to be able to rely on him as a meal ticket player. I just think that it's a bit much to evaluate him so harshly in what was his second year of football. Most guys aren't even off the bench at this stage. The Steelers are very fortunate indeed IMO.

I wouldn't disagree at all with you and would love to add Vince Young who I think can be a very similar player to Ben. Very few young QBs can win because they simply make too mnay mistakes. Ben hasn't made a ton largely because he asked to throw many passes. Especially on 3rd and long. The same situation rather befell Brady as we see how that turned out.

I just disagree with the notion you can't win with a QB not ranked as a top 5 QB. It has happened far too often to consider it impossible or even dificult.

A very good team can carry a very average QB to greatness.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

For the most part I agree with you, but I have to disagree with you on Carr and Grossman. Neither has proven nothing and Grossman can't even stay healthy for an entire season as for Brunell, he had a great year and as long as he's healthy, I don't see why he wont have a better year next year.

I don't know that I consider either to be "Franchise" Kartr. I tried to view this from the perspective of the franchise and what I've heard reported. Certainly, there is room for doubt.

Houston continues to insist that Carr is there guy so I list him as such. Chicago, healthy or not, loves Grossman. I think that evidence of this is that they would start him in the playoffs fresh of injury. I think they believe he's there franchise guy.

Notice I did not list Detroit in the haves. I don't believe that they think they have there franchise guy in Harrington.

A great deal of sepeculation on my part put I think it does get across my point on this subject matter regardless.

 

[kartr]

I think that Roeth is going to improve by leaps and bounds over the next two years. I watched him play while at Miami of Ohio and I am convinced he can throw the football. It is a maturation process. The Steelers are lucky in that they've managed to get him a great deal of invaluable experience while still staying competative and actually winning a championship. In another year or two, they are going to be able to rely on him as a meal ticket player. I just think that it's a bit much to evaluate him so harshly in what was his second year of football. Most guys aren't even off the bench at this stage. The Steelers are very fortunate indeed IMO.

Now I'm completely with you here. Roethlesberger, in my opinion combines moxie with real talent;he can throw well from the pocket and throw well on the run and for a pup shows a lot more composure than most young qb's, say like Hasselbeck. Hasselbeck didn't throw as many ints, but those out of bounds passes and throwing over the middle short, with no timeouts left, he just seemed to fallout apart in the 2nd and 4th qb's despite the fact that he was the more experienced qb.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I wouldn't disagree at all with you and would love to add Vince Young who I think can be a very similar player to Ben. Very few young QBs can win because they simply make too mnay mistakes. Ben hasn't made a ton largely because he asked to throw many passes. Especially on 3rd and long. The same situation rather befell Brady as we see how that turned out.

I just disagree with the notion you can't win with a QB not ranked as a top 5 QB. It has happened far too often to consider it impossible or even dificult.

A very good team can carry a very average QB to greatness.

I don't think that's the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that teams with there QB situation settled, long term, are enjoying much more success then those who are not. This is not an abarition as there is entirely too much supporting evidence to substanciate this. Teams that don't have this position settled can win but not long term. At least, I have yet to see one. Perhaps Washington in the 80s but even then, I don't think that you could call Theisman, Williams and Rypien scrubbs. I hated Theisman, really liked Williams and felt indifferent to Rypien but I thought that all of them had talent.

 

[neosapien23]

Dooms, again I am with you.

This whole NFL being fixed, agendas and conspiracies stuff has to stop. It is rediculous.

If the NFL had an agenda Bill Parcells and Bill Belichek would have been playing in the Superbowl yesterday.

Imagine the Hype on that story. Bill vs Bill: The Showdown.

I have no problem with people believing that crap, just dont spew it on this forum.

It undermines every accomplishment Dallas has achieved throughout their existence and casts a negative vibe on any future Superbowl wins the Cowboys have coming their way.

Go to the WWE forum and talk that junk. This is not the place for that.

What makes you so sure this game wasn't fixed. There were some horrible calls and this wasn't the only game calls were badly missed. I think it was just poor officiciating, but you never know.

 

[gbrittain]

What makes you so sure this game wasn't fixed. There were some horrible calls and this wasn't the only game calls were badly missed. I think it was just poor officiciating, but you never know.

If I thought for one second that the game was fixed, I would never post again on this forum or watch another game.

If this game was fixed, were the five Superbowl wins Dallas won fixed as well?

If you truly believe the game was fixed or might have been fixed, I would not waste another minute on this site or watching NFL football in general.

Complete waste of time, you ask me.

 

[Doomsday101]

If I thought for one second that the game was fixed, I would never post again on this forum or watch another game.

If this game was fixed, were the five Superbowl wins Dallas won fixed as well?

If you truly believe the game was fixed or might have been fixed, I would not waste another minute on this site or watching football NFL football in general.

Complete waste of time, you ask me.

I agree. I don't watch sports that are pre determined ahead of time. I also think if the game was fixed then every offical on the field would have been in on it and I don't think for a second that was the case. Questionable calls I agree but the game fixed no I don't

 

[Hostile]

But what if the franchise the franchise QB plays for is a crappy franchise? Does that mean the franchise QB isnt *really* a franchise QB if he cant lift his franchise to greatness?

Or can a QB be recognized as a franchise QB even on a crappy franchise that never wins anything? I think it can happen.. but theres only ever been about a handful of those guys in history.

Harrington for example was drafted to be a franchise QB. And even after a couple years he was still their franchise QB even though they hadnt won anything.. cant really blame a 2nd year QB for that. But I guess after a few years now we can officially take that tag away from him because the Lions still suck and it's probably all his fault.

Archie Manning was a great QB stuck on a horrible team. I'll tell you right now it wasn't his fault they were so bad. The Saints for years ignored getting football minded people in place to fix things and Archie paid for it. Look at the difference in the Saints before Jim Finks and after his arrival. Sometimes there simply isn't anything the player can do to alter that atmosphere of losing.

Anyone who thinks Archie Manning was horrible needs to listen to the players of that era.

Every year QBs go high in the Drafts. Why? Real simple, teams realize that rolling the dice on them is about the long term payoff. Until that changes, until the NFL ignores QBs in Free Agency and the Draft, there's no basis to the argument that a Franchise caliber QB is a luxury not a necessity. If there were even a scrap of evidence to support the thinking I'd be impressed.

Jon Kitna was a decent QB. Yet the Bengals drafted Carson Palmer. The Colts, Patriots, Eagles, Vikings, et al, in recent years gave huge contracts to keep their Franchise QBs in town. There's a very simple reason that gets ignored on message boards far too often.

Franchise QB in place for long term = better chance at consistent runs if the Front Office does its job well.

 

[neosapien23]

I personally don't think it was fixed, but there were just too many bad calls to say it isn't a possibility. I mean corruption can't exist in professional sports. I guess boxing just as really bad judges too.

 

[Doomsday101]

I personally don't think it was fixed, but there were just too many bad calls to say it isn't a possibility. I mean corruption can't exist in professional sports. I guess boxing just as really bad judges too.

That is why I no longer watch boxing.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Archie Manning was a great QB stuck on a horrible team. I'll tell you right now it wasn't his fault they were so bad. The Saints for years ignored getting football minded people in place to fix things and Archie paid for it. Look at the difference in the Saints before Jim Finks and after his arrival. Sometimes there simply isn't anything the player can do to alter that atmosphere of losing.

Anyone who thinks Archie Manning was horrible needs to listen to the players of that era.

Every year QBs go high in the Drafts. Why? Real simple, teams realize that rolling the dice on them is about the long term payoff. Until that changes, until the NFL ignores QBs in Free Agency and the Draft, there's no basis to the argument that a Franchise caliber QB is a luxury not a necessity. If there were even a scrap of evidence to support the thinking I'd be impressed.

Jon Kitna was a decent QB. Yet the Bengals drafted Carson Palmer. The Colts, Patriots, Eagles, Vikings, et al, in recent years gave huge contracts to keep their Franchise QBs in town. There's a very simple reason that gets ignored on message boards far too often.

Franchise QB in place for long term = better chance at consistent runs if the Front Office does its job well.

You could add Bert Jones in Baltimore, Doug Williams and possibly even Steve Young, early in there careers in Tampa Bay as well. Maybe Bartkowski in Atlanta as well.

 

[neosapien23]

That is why I no longer watch boxing.

You should. It just got alot more impartial. Don King has no fighters and has no influence on boxing at this moment. Oscar de Lay Hoya's Golden Boy Promotions, Top Rank, and Lou Dibella have given fighters more honest options than Don King. Boxing is once again becoming a credible sport.

 

[Doomsday101]

You should. It just got alot more impartial. Don King has no fighters and has no influence on boxing at this moment. Oscar de Lay Hoya's Golden Boy Promotions, Top Rank, and Lou Dibella have given fighters more honest options than Don King. Boxing is once again becoming a credible sport.

There will have to be many changes in boxing before I ever watch another match.

 

[gbrittain]

I personally don't think it was fixed, but there were just too many bad calls to say it isn't a possibility. I mean corruption can't exist in professional sports. I guess boxing just as really bad judges too.

Boxing is a joke and everyone knows it. How many billions and billions of dollars does the NFL make?

Would it make any sense to jeopardize those billions so that Pittsburght could beat Seattle?

Rest assured, if it ever came out that NFL games are fixed then the gravy train would be over immediately.

Answer this honestly. If Dallas had just won the Superbowl in the same manner Pittsburgh won last night, would you be on this forum talking about "fixed" games?

I know what I would be saying:

1. Seattle are the ones who let Willie Parker run for the longest TD in NFL history.

2. Seattle are the ones who let a WR throw for long TD pass.

3. Seattle are the ones who had a TE that decided to drop about 5 critical passes.

4. Seattle are the ones who were only able to sack Ben R once all game.

5. Seattle are the ones who had two missed field goals.

6. Seattle are the ones who had a WR that kept trying to catch ball out of bounds.

I could go on, but Seattle had their chances.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You should. It just got alot more impartial. Don King has no fighters and has no influence on boxing at this moment. Oscar de Lay Hoya's Golden Boy Promotions, Top Rank, and Lou Dibella have given fighters more honest options than Don King. Boxing is once again becoming a credible sport.

Fool me once.

Boxing, IMO, will always be fixed. I've seen to much of it to believe otherwise. To fix the sport, you would have to fix it at a grass roots level and that aint happening.

 

[neosapien23]

Fool me once.

Boxing, IMO, will always be fixed. I've seen to much of it to believe otherwise. To fix the sport, you would have to fix it at a grass roots level and that aint happening.

It's getting alot better. I haven't seen a badly officated fight in almost 2 years. If you still won't watch boxing try the UFC. That sport is totally impartial and has some of the best mixed martial artists in the world.

 

[Nors]

Referee's also made Seattle miss 2 field goals.

Their fault the flea flicker went for easy TD.


Heck - their fault Seahawks couldn't stop Steelers from runing clock out in 4th quarter. First down after first down when all knew what was coming.


Steelers won the game - period.

 

[neosapien23]

Boxing is a joke and everyone knows it. How many billions and billions of dollars does the NFL make?

Would it make any sense to jeopardize those billions so that Pittsburght could beat Seattle?

Rest assured, if it ever came out that NFL games are fixed then the gravy train would be over immediately.

Answer this honestly. If Dallas had just won the Superbowl in the same manner Pittsburgh won last night, would you be on this forum talking about "fixed" games?

I know what I would be saying:

1. Seattle are the ones who let Willie Parker run for the longest TD in NFL history.

2. Seattle are the ones who let a WR throw for long TD pass.

3. Seattle are the ones who had a TE that decided to drop about 5 critical passes.

4. Seattle are the ones who were only able to sack Ben R once all game.

5. Seattle are the ones who had two missed field goals.

6. Seattle are the ones who had a WR that kept trying to catch ball out of bounds.

I could go on, but Seattle had their chances.

If we won like this I wouldn't have to. The anti Cowboys sentiment in the NFL would have labeled the officials as corrupt and stated that Dallas only won because of their popularity. I'm not saying the game was rigged, but there is always that possibility.

 

[gbrittain]

It's getting alot better. I haven't seen a badly officated fight in almost 2 years. If you still won't watch boxing try the UFC. That sport is totally impartial and has some of the best mixed martial artists in the world.

That sport is totally impartial and has some of the best mixed martial artists in the world

I find that quote kind of interesting. You are saying that NFL games could be fixed, but then you say the UFC is totally impartial...interesting.

Not that I have a problem with the UFC, its just that you believe the NFL could be fixed yet the UFC is totally impartial.