Free took a paycut.. Why not Miles?

[jterrell]

Dez is going to get near that money regardless of what Miles makes. He's a beast, and you are simply reaching with this argument here. That's really all there is to it.. saying Dez only became Tony's go to target because Miles sucks. That's complete baloney, and i won't even begin to address everything wrong about that statement.

Bottom line, is that since Miles breakout year, he's put up at least about 1000 yards each year, except the one year he only played in half the games. That may not be Calvin Johnson production, but anytime you put up consistent 1000 yard seasons, you're a pretty darn productive receiver, imo. Even last year, when he was the third option in the passing game, he still did it.

What it comes down to is that some of you just have unrealistic expectations.. that's really all it is. It would have been nice if Dez, Witten and Miles all put up 1500 yards and 10 TD's a piece last year, but that's simply not realistic.

Fact check yourself please.
It is hard to have debates with someone posting complete bollocks.

Miles "broke out" in 2009 AS THE NUMBER 2 WR. Didn't hear ANYONE excuse RW11 because he was only the #2.

In 2010 as the #1 he had 1041 yards. In the previous 2 seasons since then he has FAILED to reach 1000 yards and in fact totaled only 1630 yards. Both season he entered as WR1.

Roy Williams had a break out 2006 season with 1300 yards receiving. He also failed to ever repeat that success.

Miles last 8 games of 2012 and thus last 8 he has played were absolutely abysmal. Once it was clear he was actually the #2 WR and Dez was the go to guy, Miles did nothing. He topped 50 yards receiving only twice and 76 was his high for the entire second half. He had a total of 2 TDs. That's not even good as a 2nd WR.

Again it is a complete fallacy to label Austin as a #2WR for 2012. He didn't start out that way any more than Doug Free did. He simply lost his job earlier because we had a better option behind him in a guy who didn't even know the full playbook yet.


Miles is a useful piece but he is vastly overpaid. Teams must look at production and arcs. Miles is getting older and more expensive but producing less. That's the kind of guy the Pats replace without blinking. There is more than enough NFL talent to go around so cap mgmt is what rules the roost nowadays. That and getting a QB. Miles is a massive luxury.

 

[SMCowboy]

That's simply not true.
Dez has been developing but he hardly walked in a polished WR. Right now he'd be a WR1 for just about anyone look at Roddy and Julio for how 2 good WRs can co-exist and succeed in not sucking.

Dez was promoted to WR1 largely because Miles flat sucked. Fair to say he was playing on bad hamstrings here for sure but his performance was very, very poor by WR1 standards WHEN he held that job. In an offense passing for a zillion yards he couldn't outproduce the TE who had major surgery weeks before the season started.

Miles was WR1 week 1. Dez simply took his job and he didn't put up any fight. There's been no quotes or controversy at all. A simple acceptance on everyone's part Dez has easily surpassed a guy making 8m per year.

If you keep Miles at his money what do you think Dez agent will ask for? 11 or 12 m per year?

Our WR2 should be making 3m per year.

Good luck finding a #2 WR, that is any good that you can sign for $3 million a year.

When Brian Hartline and Danny Amendola are making 6 million a year on contracts they just signed. And Dwayne Bowe signs one for $11 million a year and Mike Wallace signs one for $12 million a year. You are not going to find a decent #2 WR who will sign for $3 million a year.

Truth be told, given what other FA WR's signed for this year, Miles Austin even at his current contract is not greatly overpaid. If he where cut there is a very good chance he would find someone who would give him more than he is scheduled to make the final 3 years of his contract.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Fact check yourself please.
It is hard to have debates with someone posting complete bollocks.

Miles "broke out" in 2009 AS THE NUMBER 2 WR. Didn't hear ANYONE excuse RW11 because he was only the #2.

In 2010 as the #1 he had 1041 yards. In the previous 2 seasons since then he has FAILED to reach 1000 yards and in fact totaled only 1630 yards. Both season he entered as WR1.

Roy Williams had a break out 2006 season with 1300 yards receiving. He also failed to ever repeat that success.

Miles last 8 games of 2012 and thus last 8 he has played were absolutely abysmal. Once it was clear he was actually the #2 WR and Dez was the go to guy, Miles did nothing. He topped 50 yards receiving only twice and 76 was his high for the entire second half. He had a total of 2 TDs. That's not even good as a 2nd WR.

Again it is a complete fallacy to label Austin as a #2WR for 2012. He didn't start out that way any more than Doug Free did. He simply lost his job earlier because we had a better option behind him in a guy who didn't even know the full playbook yet.


Miles is a useful piece but he is vastly overpaid. Teams must look at production and arcs. Miles is getting older and more expensive but producing less. That's the kind of guy the Pats replace without blinking. There is more than enough NFL talent to go around so cap mgmt is what rules the roost nowadays. That and getting a QB. Miles is a massive luxury.

I've checked the facts numerous times.. this isn't the first debate i've had with someone coming and saying Miles sucks.

For starters, please stop with this #1, #2, #45 crap.. these are meaningless indicators. No one on the coaching staff sat the players down last season and said, "Okay, Miles, Dez.. im going to start Miles out at the #1 receiver position this year, and Dez you will my in the #2 receiver position.. but Dez if you play better, we will move you to the #1 receiver position and put Miles on the #2 side of the field."

Talk about bollocks..

:laugh2:

Now, getting this fantasy measuring sticks out of our heads for a second.. what part of my stats that i posted do you think im making up?

I stated that since Miles breakout season he has consistently posted about 1,000 yards a year, except the year where he only played in half the games. There's nothing you can even say to refute that, its a fact.. and the fact is, i'll take a receiver who puts up consistent 1,000 yard seasons anyday of the week because that's very good production.

In your last post, you talked about the Atlanta Falcons as a team that had two receivers who could both be number ones who managed to not "suck".

Well, let's look, shall we?

2012:

Roddy White - 1351 yards

Julio Jones - 1198 yards

Tony Gonzalez - 930 yards


Dez Bryant - 1392 yards

Jason Witten - 1039 yards

Miles Austin - 943 yards


....................................

For the Falcons, White got more targets than Jones, who got more targets than Gonzo.

For the Cowboys, Witten got more targets than Dez, who got more targets than Miles.

So its damn near equal production from your top three guys, isn't it?

Damn, our receivers really sucked last year..

 

[xwalker]

The Cowboys carried Free's 7M base salary on the cap until well past the draft.

It would not have been possible to carry Austin's original 6M+ base salary on the cap and still Franchise Spencer. They had to restructure all but 1 big contract. They picked Free as the one that they held off on restructuring and waited until the leverage was clearly in their advantage to require him to take a pay cut.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Fact check yourself please.


In 2010 as the #1 he had 1041 yards. In the previous 2 seasons since then he has FAILED to reach 1000 yards and in fact totaled only 1630 yards. Both season he entered as WR1.

Also, i really shouldn't say anything, because you're helping my argument more than your own here, but i would fact check yourself before you worry about the stats i gave you. You're a bit off with the numbers there, Charlie.

:laugh2:

 

[SMCowboy]

Miles is a useful piece but he is vastly overpaid. Teams must look at production and arcs. Miles is getting older and more expensive but producing less. That's the kind of guy the Pats replace without blinking. There is more than enough NFL talent to go around so cap mgmt is what rules the roost nowadays. That and getting a QB. Miles is a massive luxury.

Do you mean the same New England Patriots who gave injury prone Danny Amendola who has yet to have even a 700 yard receiving year, and has a grand total of 7 career TD's a 5 year, 31 million dollar contract this year.

If you want to argue that we can't afford the luxury of a Miles Austin that is one thing... But atleast what he is costing us THIS year, even before the restructure is not out of line with what he would get on the FA market, not when Danny Amendola and Brian Hartline are getting $6 million a year. And Greg Jennings got $9 million a year.

 

[jterrell]

Good luck finding a #2 WR, that is any good that you can sign for $3 million a year.

When Brian Hartline and Danny Amendola are making 6 million a year on contracts they just signed. And Dwayne Bowe signs one for $11 million a year and Mike Wallace signs one for $12 million a year. You are not going to find a decent #2 WR who will sign for $3 million a year.

Truth be told, given what other FA WR's signed for this year, Miles Austin even at his current contract is not greatly overpaid. If he where cut there is a very good chance he would find someone who would give him more than he is scheduled to make the final 3 years of his contract.

None of those guys are signed to be #2s.

Other than that fair point about WRs getting paid in this FA class while OL did not.

BTW, Danny Amendola's cap hit this year is 3.5m, next year is 4.5m.
Miles cap hit in 2014 is 8.2m, in 2015 is 9.2m. Miles has made more money here than T.O. did.
Want to tell me you believe the Pats won't cut Amendola if he posts consecutive sub 1000 yard seasons like Miles has?

Hartline costs 2m this year, 6m next year. He is 2 years younger than Miles and coming off a 1000 yards receiving in an offense that passed for ~66% of what Dallas did.

Bowe did get paid like a star. Partly because he is a tried and true 1000 yard receiver on a team that's had trash QBs. They "think" he is a 1200 yard a season guy. I wouldn't have paid him all that money but KC did.

The Cowboys have ALREADY paid Miles 30m for the past 3 seasons of 2700 yards receiving.

If anyone wants to argue that he hasn't been overpaid I am going to severely question their sanity.

 

[jterrell]

Do you mean the same New England Patriots who gave injury prone Danny Amendola who has yet to have even a 700 yard receiving year, and has a grand total of 7 career TD's a 5 year, 31 million dollar contract this year.

If you want to argue that we can't afford the luxury of a Miles Austin that is one thing... But atleast what he is costing us THIS year, even before the restructure is not out of line with what he would get on the FA market, not when Danny Amendola and Brian Hartline are getting $6 million a year. And Greg Jennings got $9 million a year.

Also might want to note the Pats let Welker and Brandon Lloyd both walk since you are curious about them.

They do not keep older highly-paid players unless they are named Tom Brady.

Trying to quote what a guy signed for as if it is real money is always silly in the NFL. Look at the real money in the deal. Amendola really got a 2 year 11.6m deal. (cap hits of 3.5, 4.5 than 3.6 spreadable over 2 seasons if they cut him). He is a young up and comer and even if he stays through the deal never makes more than 6m base in any season. He only pocketed 6m in signing bonus. Hardly the 17m Miles got year 1 that will probably total more than Amendola ever makes with the Pats.

There are lots of capable #2 WRs out there. They may sign for BIG money but the real money won't be. Miles has already gotten plenty of REAL money and continues to. And cap hit talk with Austin is incomplete if it doesn't include the 10m in penalties we just paid for his contract. The REAL cost of doing business with Miles has been horrific the past few seasons.

 

[SMCowboy]

None of those guys are signed to be #2s.

Other than that fair point about WRs getting paid in this FA class while OL did not.

BTW, Danny Amendola's cap hit this year is 3.5m, next year is 4.5m.
Miles cap hit in 2014 is 8.2m, in 2015 is 9.2m. Miles has made more money here than T.O. did.
Want to tell me you believe the Pats won't cut Amendola if he posts consecutive sub 1000 yard seasons like Miles has?

Hartline costs 2m this year, 6m next year. He is 2 years younger than Miles and coming off a 1000 yards receiving in an offense that passed for ~66% of what Dallas did.

Bowe did get paid like a star. Partly because he is a tried and true 1000 yard receiver on a team that's had trash QBs. They "think" he is a 1200 yard a season guy. I wouldn't have paid him all that money but KC did.

The Cowboys have ALREADY paid Miles 30m for the past 3 seasons of 2700 yards receiving.

If anyone wants to argue that he hasn't been overpaid I am going to severely question their sanity.

You might want to go look at who else the Dolphins signed. They also signed a guy named Mike Wallace. Unless you are telling me the Dolphins signed Mike Wallace to be the #2 WR....

Guess what, you may not like it. And you can certainly argue that for the Dallas Cowboys paying more than $3 million dollars for a #2 WR is to much. But to act like Miles Austin would not easily get a contact very close to what he is currently making if we cut him is flat absurd.

As far the Patriots cutting Amendola the second he posts two sub 1,000 yard seasons. I highly doubt that, given that they gave him that contract without him posting a single 700 yard season even....

Here are the numbers for you, if you really want to get super nit picky about the break downs:
Year 2013:
Danny Amendola: $3,543,750
Miles Austin: $3,588,400
No doubt that Miles Austin is worth atleast $40K more than Danny Amendola.

Year 2014:
Danny Amendola: $4,543,750
Miles Austin: $8,248,400
Is Miles Austin worth $3.7 million more than Amendola, not sure he is worth a full $3.7 million more, but I would certainly says he is easily $2 million dollars more. The difference is, we can cut Miles Austin next year, if we want and be slightly ahead cap wise. Where Amendola is guaranteed $2 million of he salary next year, plus the remaining $4+ million of his signing bonus.... Putting them more than $3 million in the hole if they try and cut Amendola next year.

Year: 2015:
Danny Amendola: $5,543,750
Miles Austin: $9,636,400
Is Miles Austin worth $4 million more than Danny Amendola, no I doubt it. But, by now, we can cut Miles Austin and save $4.5 million dollars. Miles Austin will have to improve his production to see this year of his contract.

 

[SMCowboy]

Also might want to note the Pats let Welker and Brandon Lloyd both walk since you are curious about them.

They do not keep older highly-paid players unless they are named Tom Brady.

Trying to quote what a guy signed for as if it is real money is always silly in the NFL. Look at the real money in the deal. Amendola really got a 2 year 11.6m deal. (cap hits of 3.5, 4.5 than 3.6 spreadable over 2 seasons if they cut him). He is a young up and comer and even if he stays through the deal never makes more than 6m base in any season. He only pocketed 6m in signing bonus. Hardly the 17m Miles got year 1 that will probably total more than Amendola ever makes with the Pats.

Danny Amendola signed for $10 million guaranteed, with an additional $2 million all but guaranteed because of the way the contract is structured.

 

[joseephuss]

I think Miles is in his last season with Dallas. I think the restructuring was done in part because they know they will let him go at the end of this year. So comparing what he is scheduled to make in base salary in two or three years doesn't really mean anything.

I don't think what has transpired has been horrific. Miles has been overpaid for his production, but saying it is horrific is a bit extreme. Injuries happen. At least he isn't out there not producing while he is fully healthy. That was Roy Williams. Austin, when healthy is a very good weapon even if he is overpaid at doing it.

 

[jterrell]

Danny Amendola signed for $10 million guaranteed, with an additional $2 million all but guaranteed because of the way the contract is structured.

I quoted the Amendola deal at 2 years and 11.6. That is his total cost over 2 years and covers every guaranteed cent plus any cap hits for release.

The Pats don't pay players for what they have done; they pay them for what they expect them to do. Thus they aren't worried about Amendola's lack of totals in another offense but only what his totals will be in 2013 in NE. You want to make some sort of bet about Amendola's total this year versus Miles? I am more than willing.

Other than that beyond failing to discuss Miles already paid money and his yearly bonuses that's about right.

If we simply lop off the 6m we handed Miles this year he is about the cost of Amendola on the cap PROVIDED WE KEEP HIM. A shame it doesn't really work that way.

Miles would cost 17m over 2 years while Amendola 11.6. That isn't the same cost AT ALL.

We CAN keep Miles cost around that of Amendola by constantly pushing off a large cap hit upon his release. Amendola has no such issue. The Pats do have an out with him and quickly if they see fit.

Bottom line is these guys are NOT paid at the same rate. Miles makes way more. Amendola was given 31m theoretical dollars while Miles has already MADE 31m REAL dollars.

Hartline's deal is much like Amendola's. He has been the #1 for Miami. He is 26 years old. He got 12.5m guaranteed and in the first two years.

That's the going rate for a young ascending starting WR in this league. Coveted guys with arrows pointing up. Not really 30m but about 12m over 2 years with team options essentially yearly at the 6m a year range going forward.

But as the OP posited in the beginning this is about Miles and next year he may face the situation Free did. He will be cheaper to cut then keep and arguably replaceable with far cheaper talent in house. In fact he could simply be an injury prone progress stopper with Harris and Williams ready for more work and the 12 formation seeing enough use to make a true slot WR a luxury not a need.

Could Miles get a deal similar to Amendola and Hartline in FA. Absolutely. Could he get his current deal? No! Every team looking at him would build in outs after 2 years at easy terms. He wouldn't be given a massive bonus or large guaranteed money. He certainly wouldn't get 31m handed to him in real money over 3 years like he has here.

 

[jterrell]

I think Miles is in his last season with Dallas. I think the restructuring was done in part because they know they will let him go at the end of this year. So comparing what he is scheduled to make in base salary in two or three years doesn't really mean anything.

I don't think what has transpired has been horrific. Miles has been overpaid for his production, but saying it is horrific is a bit extreme. Injuries happen. At least he isn't out there not producing while he is fully healthy. That was Roy Williams. Austin, when healthy is a very good weapon even if he is overpaid at doing it.

I think that is a fair take. Bottom line in 2013 the biggest cap thieves were Free and Miles however. Little doubt in my mind that is both fair and accurate.

Mechanisms we used to reduce Miles contract hides his real cost to this team in 2013. As did the 10m we ate in penalties over 2 years.

 

[joseephuss]

I wouldn't bet on Amendola's totals. He has had his share of injuries as well. He has only played in 16 games once during his career.

 

[Doomsday101]

I would just as soon see Austin put up big numbers as opposed to a paycut.