Goose - "I'd be surprised if the Cowboys DON'T go DL"

[28 Joker]

Fix the Oline via free agency.

Why way overpay in free agency when DeCastro and Glenn are solid, safe, economical values at 14 and meet a huge need? Phillip Blake in round 2 or 3...The Cowboys have scouted him heavily according to Mosley.

I'm not paying Scott Wells (31 and undersized) 11.5 million dollars guaranteed. Who are all these great guard options? The top 2 will be very, very expensive. Dallas needs 3 interior offensive line players, anyway.

I sure don't want to draft some overrated NT from Memphis. Let someone else take that risk. Who was that overrated DT from Kentucky in 2003?

 

[28 Joker]

Gosselin sure did praise the Eagles for drafting an OG in round 1 last year, didn't he. The Cowboys are seriously hurting for players in the interior offensive line. Nevertheless, Gosselin advocates passing over the solid, low risk value that matches a dire need (interior offensive line), in favor of drafting an extremely high bust rate position (defensive line).

Let's look at the Philadelphia Eagles first round investments in the defensive line:

1997: Jon Harris DE
2000: Corey Simon DT
2003: Jerome McDougle DE (pick 15)
2005: Mike Patterson DT
2006: Brodrick Bunkley DT (pick 14)
2010: Brandon Graham (pick 13)

Here are two of Andy Reid's 2nd round defensive linemen:

2008: Trevor Laws (pick 47)
2007: Victor Abiamiri (pick 57)

The Eagles are supposed to be draft geniuses, but look at their drafting in the defensive line. Where was the Eagles' reward? This is a perfect example of how very risky defensive line picks are in the NFL.

On the other hand:

1998: Tra Thomas (1st round; pick 11) ( 3x Pro Bowl and 1x All-Pro)
2004: Shawn Andrews (1st round; pick 16) (2x All-Pro and 3x Pro Bowl)
2011: Danny Watkins (1st round; pick 23) starter

Andrews' depression was the root of his short shelf life, but when fully healthy, Andrews was a dominant force and an All-Pro.

 

[burmafrd]

Admire your passion and research 41gy but finding a quality OG in the middle rounds is not as impossible as you pose. There is a reason why the guard position is not historically drafted high and paid the least on the OL.

Love Osemele and Silatolu. But there are other talented guards/OT conversions like Brandon Brooks, Lucas Nix (who Bunting raved about prior to injury), Rishaw Johnson, Senio Kelemete, Bobbie Massie, Tom Compton and Levy Adcock.

show me a good guard that Dallas has picked since 1994 outside of the 2nd rd.

 

[jswalker1981]

Gosselin sure did praise the Eagles for drafting an OG in round 1 last year, didn't he. The Cowboys are seriously hurting for players in the interior offensive line. Nevertheless, Gosselin advocates passing over the solid, low risk value that matches a dire need (interior offensive line), in favor of drafting an extremely high bust rate position (defensive line).

Let's look at the Philadelphia Eagles first round investments in the defensive line:

1997: Jon Harris DE
2000: Corey Simon DT
2003: Jerome McDougle DE (pick 15)
2005: Mike Patterson DT
2006: Brodrick Bunkley DT (pick 14)
2010: Brandon Graham (pick 13)

And remember that they added Jenkins and Babin in the offseason last year after seeing Graham only get snaps in a rotation.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

Well 41gy#, I understand what you are saying, its just that you haven't even presented one thing to improve the D. I want to improve both, not just one side of the ball. You mention the busts on D, there are busts everywhere, we have drafted alot of them. If you want to say there are low round picks representing our OL, that is exactly what your asking to happen to the D at a time when they are already not playing well.

If you want to help Romo, you also have to provide help for Ware. If we lose either one, our season is over. The Texans were able to get past Mario's injury cause they had other rushers, we have none. Talented big men are hard to find, pass rushers too, and we have failed in the past at trying to get them. This doesn't mean we should give up.

Cause of bad drafting on D, I can understand how most just wanna go all offense, after all, we picked offense first in the last 3 drafts that we had a 1st round pick with some success. There is risk with any draft pick, and you tore down pretty much all the D players cause there is risk. Poe, for example, is torn down cause he rose with a great combine......Ware wouldn't even be on this team if it hadn't been for his combine.

We could break down them all, including the ones I actually like, but the point is we can't expect for Ware to be all by himself on D, while we build a wall around Romo. I'm all for protecting Romo, and upgrades are needed even if it is in FA dollars. Nicks is a top 3 guard in the league right now, but if we want Mario he is twice as much money as Nicks and its debatable if Mario is top 3 at his position. You just have to understand that OL isn't in the same demand as DL/pass rusher, the draft and the money should make that obvious.

Sure there is risk, but the rewards could be huge also. Sure you draft a OL high, he has a higher chance of success and front 7 guys are harder to find. But thats also the reason the Giants keep drafting them, and of course they got shiny things on their fingers and no probowl guards.

An offensive powerhouse will make you a solid team and will win ballgames as a defensive powerhouse will do the same. But balance will win you multiple rings.

 

[CCBoy]

Given his size, that is sick. If you want to improve the pass rush up the middle; this guy will push the pocket and not allow QB to step up in the pocket. Now Ware and Spencer will be able to turn the corner and the QB will be a sitting duck. You line him up next to Ratliff and opposite Ware. Who do you double? He will also help the DB's. To me, the Def Front is one player away and I like this guys skill set. I'm saying all this and I'm a Ingram fan, but this guy can change your defense overnight. He could play NT or DE in the 3-4 given his skill set.

What is not to like?

Sorry, I don't know...and he is exactly what all of us time bidders have been wanting to be able to run the classic 3-4. I even like the ability to move him to the defensive end position with either Jay or Brent at the nose. Heck, throw Lassimore in at the nose as well, and you have a front of Ratliff, Poe, and Lassimore...and pressure.

 

[Teague31]

show me a good guard that Dallas has picked since 1994 outside of the 2nd rd.

cue the crickets...

 

[Stash]

cue the crickets...

No kidding, right?

:laugh2:

 

[Dough Boy]

show me a good guard that Dallas has picked since 1994 outside of the 2nd rd.

I really hope Arkin is that guy. With one full season under his belt; a full offseason with the Wocieck (sp). I really hope Callahan can develop him and Wocieck can build him.

He is not there yet, but I hope (for the sake of the team) he and Nagy are both keepers.

 

[Gaede]

show me a good guard that Dallas has picked since 1994 outside of the 2nd rd.

So convenient that you 'randomly' picked 1994. You know, the year we picked possibly the best guard in the history of the NFL in the second round.

 

[Stash]

So convenient that you 'randomly' picked 1994. You know, the year we picked possibly the best guard in the history of the NFL in the second round.

How many years back is enough?

Is 18 not far enough to show their clear failure in this area?

I think 10 years is more than enough honestly.

Anybody who can't see that this team has failed in this area is simply blinding themselves to the fact.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

So convenient that you 'randomly' picked 1994. You know, the year we picked possibly the best guard in the history of the NFL in the second round.

Um.. i think that's exactly why he picked that year. Because we picked a great guard that year, but his point was to show how long its been since we've drafted a guard who was any good.

That being said, im not sure what point it serves in this discussion. Again, i think this thread is simply just alot of overreaction. If you asked Goose who he would take, im betting he'd say DeCastro if he's there. This is just a discussion starter, it was a rational argument of why it may be better to take a stud DL if there is one available over a stud OG at 14. He's simply saying, if we go this route, that there is a much better chance of getting a quality OG and CB in the later rounds than there is of taking OG at 14 and getting a quality DL in the later rounds.

 

[Gaede]

Um.. i think that's exactly why he picked that year. Because we picked a great guard that year, but his point was to show how long its been since we've drafted a guard who was any good.

.

But that's the flaw in his argument. We picked maybe one of the best OL in the history of the sport in the second round. So that somehow is supposed to justify spending a high 1st on a G? One that isn't even remotely similar as a talent? One that can't even play tackle or center?

My point is, that these players ARE available outside of the top 15 picks.

 

[InmanRoshi]

So convenient that you 'randomly' picked 1994. You know, the year we picked possibly the best guard in the history of the NFL in the second round.

And it's more a point of the Cowboys mis-evaluating and not developing talent at an NFL level when it comes off offensive line. Other teams do it. That's the real disease that needs to be cured, not throwing more good money after bad.

 

[Hoofbite]

There are several players on my list that can make an impact, just a matter of where you think that impact is most beneficial to cause us to win more ballgames.

Well, this is where the draft is a crap shoot. Revis was the #14 pick in his draft, noone expected what he is now, and he might be a lil better than TNew. You can't just assume cause our bad history in drafting defensive players that we will continue to be as bad right now.

It's not like great players can't come from 14.

By no means is it impossible but its far from guaranteed you get a guy that's good. Revis is a rarity. Like Ed Reed or Polamalu. More often then not, DBs are okay at best.

Here's a list of DBs taken from the 2005 - 2009 Drafts, picked 20th or higher.

There wasn't a DB taken in the 1st round in 2010 and it's too early to say anything about 2011.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=P91nv

How many guys on that list would you call playmakers or difference makers?

Our last 3 top 1st round picks in the draft were for offense (Tyron, Dez, Felix). The first pick is by far the most important pick in the draft, cause it can make or destroy a team and also shape its direction. And what you wanna do is make offense our 4th top 1st round pick in a row.[/quote[

I don't see why that matters at all. It's not like Dallas didn't use it's fair share on defensive picks in the years prior.

Ware
Spears
Spencer
Carpenter
Jenkins

Those guys were all taken in consecutive years. 4 straight years of defensive players. Granted Jenkins was combo'd with Felix so count that however you want.

What side of the ball shouldn't be an issue at all. You could probably argue against a position based on all the resources used there prior but what side of the ball is just a stretch.

I have no problem with that, but at some point we do have to forget the Bobby Carpenters of the world and actually try to stop someone. If you don't wanna fix it for this coming season, well we disagree on that. Anything can happen, you wait to make a run in 2013, you might not have Romo or Ware cause they are getting older.

Delayed gratification works on teams with a young nucleus. With Romo and Ware getting older, we do actually need to think of the present and the future.

DeMarcus Ware is 29, will be 30. Not exactly running out of sand in the hourglass.

Romo probably has a few years in him as well.

I don't think time is so limited that this season or next season is do or die.

What happens between now and 12 months from now that takes Romo or Ware out for good?

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Our last 3 top 1st round picks in the draft were for offense (Tyron, Dez, Felix). The first pick is by far the most important pick in the draft, cause it can make or destroy a team and also shape its direction. And what you wanna do is make offense our 4th top 1st round pick in a row.

Yup. So many people claim we have to take OL to be help Romo, but how does it help Romo to have to play from behind all game every week?

And someone asked what decent guard we'd drafted since 1994... Andre Gurode was a pretty good guard.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

But that's the flaw in his argument. We picked maybe one of the best OL in the history of the sport in the second round. So that somehow is supposed to justify spending a high 1st on a G? One that isn't even remotely similar as a talent? One that can't even play tackle or center?

My point is, that these players ARE available outside of the top 15 picks.

That's a fair point, but his point counters by showing how hard it is to hit on a top level OG if you don't take them early. In this draft, there is one guy who is clearly the top prospect at the position and is projected by almost everybody to be a multiple time Pro Bowler and All Pro. Then its a crapshoot as far as the rest of the interior OL prospects.. even though there are good ones who i think will be available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

 

[Dough Boy]

And it's more a point of the Cowboys mis-evaluating and not developing talent at an NFL level when it comes off offensive line. Other teams do it. That's the real disease that needs to be cured, not throwing more good money after bad.

Agreed. Dallas needs to have a higher hit rate on drafted OL. No question about that. I think back to Jacob Rogers and Peterman. Fairly high picks that we missed on.

One way to get a higher % of hits; draft better players. Generally, the higher you pick them the higher you had them ranked.

But I agree 100%, we need to develop the 3rd, 4th rd linemen. Nicks and Evans were not 1st round picks. The Arkins, and Brewsters of the world, we need to hit on guys like that. Dallas has to get better at developing the OL in-house. Typically speaking, OG is a position that you can grow in-house. See NO; they have two pro bowlers that were not 1st round picks.

With all that being said, I really like DeCastro and he is one of five players I would take in the 1st round.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Yup. So many people claim we have to take OL to be help Romo, but how does it help Romo to have to play from behind all game every week?

Exactly. Want to keep Tony Romo healthy? We all do. How about pairing him with a defense that doesn't insist that he drop back and chuck the ball around 50 times a game, while defenders get to pin their ears back and tee off on him, because we're always in shoot outs? Wanna take the pressure off of Romo? I agree. How about pairing him with a defense where a 90 QB rating is a good enough performance to win a game instead of a flawless 140 QB peformance with no margin for a single bad read or errant throw?

Everyone talks about all this difference Harbaugh had on Alex Smith and helping him turn the corner this year. The 49ers offense was 31st in the NFL in pass attempts. They were 29th in passing yards per game. They hardly ever asked Alex Smith to carry the team to win the game in the way Romo is asked to every week. Making the 49ers defense a dominant force was the most "QB Friendly" thing that franchise ever did in Alex Smith's career.

 

[Dough Boy]

Yup. So many people claim we have to take OL to be help Romo, but how does it help Romo to have to play from behind all game every week?

And someone asked what decent guard we'd drafted since 1994... Andre Gurode was a pretty good guard.

Subpar guard, very good Center...

Its a the chicken or the egg. Which do you build 1st? The skill position or the line. No right answer. Generally if you take the best player on the board (don't miss too many) then over the course of a few years you should field a good team. Reaching for either (skill player or lineman) is never the right answer.

Dallas methodology for the offense line was to build through free agency not the draft. That was the problem I had. There are some good Offensive lineman that Dallas placed a 2nd round grade on. The two linemen from SF come to mind. Upatti (sp) and Davis. No way either should have had a 2nd round grade.