Hallelujah, the Commanders Still Don't Get It

[SkinsFan28]

I'm curious, what makes you think they've had 2 good drafts so far? Your No. 1 pick last year and 4th overall TW was very avg. last year and even got in the coaches doghouse with his lack of effort and tardiness to meetings. It's not starting off well for him this offseason either, he's been a complete "no show" to every team workout so far claiming he didn't know about them. That's not good for a dude who already had the LAZY tag on him in college.

This year your No. 1 pick was a 4yr DE in a 4-3 and you're trying to convert him to a OLB in a 3-4, not saying he can't do it but why use such a high pick on a project move? If you wanted a OLB, your pick was high enough to get a legit OLB without trying to convert one. The guy has a high motor and great work ethic but I don't know if he's athletic enough to make that move. He was a great DE in the 4-3 though. MS is known for NOT knowing personnel, that's why his good friend ran him out of Denver.. Help me out, explain your 2 good drafts for me please..

Mansta,

I won't expect you to see it, but for those others on the boards that aren't as blind:

(I do not count Jeremy Jarmon as part of this FO, and the McNabb trade was a dumb stunt, but still isn't part of the youth that was picked up)

2010- round 1: TW - I have looked for reports to correspond with what you say Mansta, but haven't found any reasonable posts or reports to correlate it. TW faced top flight RDE talent all year long and by all rational accounts held his own. Here is his own account of missing the player workouts [which by the way really means little in the overall scheme]:

Reached by phone Wednesday, Williams said that he has been training with roughly a dozen players in his hometown of Houston. He said he considered attending this week’s workouts, but decided not to go because he was in a wedding last weekend, which would have interfered with travel plans. “I kind of had my hands tied,” Williams said. “But I figure as long as I’m getting work in and am making sure I’m ready. I’ve been trimming down a little bit, focusing on total body strength, and I started back [doing squats] this offseason, which I hadn’t done since my sophomore year, to get my explosiveness in my legs back. I feel great.”

2nd and 3rd rounds: no player selected
4th round: Perry Riley, LB, had some very positive moments, and some rookie moments. I expect that he will be a bright spot for several years.
5th: no player selected (though Carriker was a good trade within the draft)
6th: Dennis Morris meh doubt much from this 6th rounder
7th: Terrence Austin, went from Practice Squad to regular team, but don't expect much
7th: Eric Cook and Selvish Capers both were good value for that point. Are they guaranteed good players no, but both are hard workers, and suitable backups.


2011: and I am not grading, because we all know that it takes a couple years to shake out, but keep in mind that the Skins went into the draft missing several picks and ended up with a pick in each round, and going from 3 to 12 total


1st - Ryan Kerrigan, this guy was put as the steal of the draft by several draft watchers, and as a compliment to Orakpo ought to be a starter for the next several years (as for your strawman OLB argument - there are not many true 3-4 OLBs in High School or College, and Kerrigan is expected to make that transition competently)



2nd - Jarvis Jenkins, will be a starting DE, can't really knock the selection


3rd - Leonard Hankerson, certainly has potential to be a higher rated WR than we have right now.


as for the rest, 2 young RBs to give competition for starting (Helu and Evan Royster) 2 more WR/PR's, again getting youth into the team
and then some safeties and a NT in Chris Neild that I personally am syked about. There were a few more, and in all you have to feel good about the players drafted - no reaches, a couple possible steals, and addressed team weaknesses (admittedly not a hard thing to given how bad the team has been)



Again, we can compare drafts in 3-4 years, and see which team was better, but I think that MS/BA held their own over the past 2 years.

 

[Mansta54]

Mansta,

I won't expect you to see it, but for those others on the boards that aren't as blind:

Dude I don't care about what you expect from me. I asked you a football question, just answer it without all the other garbage. Is that so hard for you to do? If you live in the DC area and listen to your own flagship station WTEM, TW was the topic most of last week. It was your team beat reporter Chris Russell who spoke on TW laziness and tardiness and lack of effort. Just cause you didn't hear it doesn't mean it isn't true. He said MS and is staff are very dissapointed in him. The fact that he hasn't attended any of the teams workouts isn't good either, coming from a guy with the lazy tag on him. TW was in the bottom half of the starting LT's last season and that's posted somewhere on this board. Just cause you can't find it or didn't hear it doesn't mean I'm making it up..

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Please don't quote Mansta. His posts add nothing to discussions and I prefer not to see them

 

[gimmesix]

Agree- He will end up being cut. Hopefully Arizona picks him up, leaving 1 less team (in theory) looking for a QB next spring



Yup. The Eagles bent over the Commanders FO on this trade. No other way to put it but to say "terrible trade"

Which is why it appears operation Luck is now in effect, in particular if Beck is starting next season. I tell people that if John Beck starts for the Commanders in 2011, Andrew Luck will be starting in 2012 because we will be historically bad

The good thing for you is that Snyder has shown he's not afraid to trade away however many draft picks it takes to get a player.

If you have to trade up a few spots, you might end up with Luck and no other draft picks for the rest of the decade.

 

[Mansta54]

Fat Albert is also known to be very lazy as well and remember, he claimed to be training hard with a PT and in the best shape of his life last year as well. You know how that turned out..

 

[SkinsFan28]

Dude I don't care about what you expect from me. I asked you a football question, just answer it without all the other garbage. Is that so hard for you to do? If you live in the DC area and listen to your own flagship station WTEM, TW was the topic most of last week. It was your team beat reporter Chris Russell who spoke on TW laziness and tardiness and lack of effort. Just cause you didn't hear it doesn't mean it isn't true. He said MS and is staff are very dissapointed in him. The fact that he hasn't attended any of the teams workouts isn't good either, coming from a guy with the lazy tag on him. TW was in the bottom half of the starting LT's last season and that's posted somewhere on this board. Just cause you can't find it or didn't hear it doesn't mean I'm making it up..

I think I did answer the football question, and if you live in the area then you know that most of the local media's job is to stir up frustrations and tensions, rather than report factually. That is why I go mostly to the national media, and particularly SiriusXM, and there you here mostly positives about Williams. Time will tell but when he holds his own against the Freeney's, Ware's and others, I am good with the pick. My barb against you mainly was cuz I know from past history that nothing I say to you that is positive about the Skins will get any traction, which is fine, seeing as this is a 'boys site.

 

[Mansta54]

Please don't quote Mansta. His posts add nothing to discussions and I prefer not to see them

There's a easy way for you not to see them, DON'T COME HERE. This is a COWBOYS BOARD.. That's a easy problem to solve...

 

[Mansta54]

I think I did answer the football question, and if you live in the area then you know that most of the local media's job is to stir up frustrations and tensions, rather than report factually. That is why I go mostly to the national media, and particularly SiriusXM, and there you here mostly positives about Williams. Time will tell but when he holds his own against the Freeney's, Ware's and others, I am good with the pick. My barb against you mainly was cuz I know from past history that nothing I say to you that is positive about the Skins will get any traction, which is fine, seeing as this is a 'boys site.

Well if you know this already, then stop whinnin and crying when I question your posts... Dude really!!!

 

[gimmesix]

This year your No. 1 pick was a 4yr DE in a 4-3 and you're trying to convert him to a OLB in a 3-4, not saying he can't do it but why use such a high pick on a project move? If you wanted a OLB, your pick was high enough to get a legit OLB without trying to convert one. The guy has a high motor and great work ethic but I don't know if he's athletic enough to make that move. He was a great DE in the 4-3 though. MS is known for NOT knowing personnel, that's why his good friend ran him out of Denver.. Help me out, explain your 2 good drafts for me please..

Despite my desire not to side with any Commanders fans, most 3-4 teams end up with converted DEs at the OLB positions. For instance, both of our 3-4 starting OLBs (Ware and Spencer) are converted ends, as are the backups we drafted.

Now, not every converted DE can handle the switch, and I don't know if Kerrigan can, but there was nothing wrong with the move from a 3-4 standpoint.

Obviously, I hope he busts, though.

 

[Mansta54]

Despite my desire not to side with any Commanders fans, most 3-4 teams end up with converted DEs at the OLB positions. For instance, both of our 3-4 starting OLBs (Ware and Spencer) are converted ends, as are the backups we drafted.

Now, not every converted DE can handle the switch, and I don't know if Kerrigan can, but there was nothing wrong with the move from a 3-4 standpoint.

Obviously, I hope he busts, though.

This may be true but I don't see the athleticism in Kerrigan to make the switch as I did in Ware or Spencer. I don't see Kerrigan turning his hips and covering RB's out the backfield at all. Again, dude was damn good as a DE, I don't see it at OLB...

 

[The30YardSlant]

Cowboys fans forget that Mike Shanahan's GM/roster moves in Denver are what did him in, eventually. Particularly on the defensive side of the football.

Just about everyone forgets that Mike Shanahan hasnt done squat in the NFL without John Elway and Terrell Davis.

 

[Mansta54]

Just about everyone forgets that Mike Shanahan hasnt done squat in the NFL without John Elway and Terrell Davis.

I didn't....

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Just about everyone forgets that Mike Shanahan hasnt done squat in the NFL without John Elway and Terrell Davis.

And all those Super Bowls Elway won without Shanahan. And the success Steve Young was without Shanny

And Bellicheck won without Brady

And Walsh won without Montana

And Knoll won without Bradshaw

Its probably the dumbest argument against a guy in sports.

As for his personell moves, Shanahan's drafts became spectacular in 2006. From 2006 to 2008 he drafted Cutler, BMarsh, Ryan Clady, Peyton Hillis, Scheffler, Dumerville, Ryan Harris, and Eddie Royal.

That is a damn good run over 3 years. 8 starters who are either B or higher players

 

[gimmesix]

As for his personell moves, Shanahan's drafts became spectacular in 2006. From 2006 to 2008 he drafted Cutler, BMarsh, Ryan Clady, Peyton Hillis, Scheffler, Dumerville, Ryan Harris, and Eddie Royal.

That is a damn good run over 3 years. 8 starters who are either B or higher players

Shanahan's drafting issues have more to do with defense than offense. He's good at finding offensive gems but needs help with the defensive shopping.

 

[The30YardSlant]

And all those Super Bowls Elway won without Shanahan.

Elway took the Broncos to the Superbowl by himself three times. He was surrounded by trash for over a decade and they still won consistently.

And the success Steve Young was without Shanny

Young had three healthy seasons after Shanahan left and two ended in the NFC Title game. Not exactly a large sample size, but success in that sample size.

And Bellicheck won without Brady

Possibly a legitimate point, but he has a small sample size (five years between the Browns and Pats) without Brady. Not nearly the sample size Shanahan has.

And Walsh won without Montana

Walsh won the Pac-8 and coach of the year at Stanford and built those Niners teams, whereas Shanahan inherited Elway. He's also got the most impressive coaching tree in the history of sports (one of which is, guess who, Shanahan). Not really comparable.

And Knoll won without Bradshaw

Terry Bradshaw was an average NFL QB who rode the backs of Franco Harris and the Steel Curtain to four titles. He was just along for the ride and frankly if you look at his numbers he has no business being in the HOF. You would have been better off saying "Knoll without the Steel Curtain..." which in fact he built.

Shanahan inherited the majority of his '97 and '98 title teams when he got there in '95, and after Elway left he hovered around .500 almost every year with some very talented teams.

Now, the bigger issue here is that the Commanders just suck personel wise, not many coaches could do much with the complete and utter lack of skill position talent that Shanahan has.

 

[Mansta54]

Elway took the Broncos to the Superbowl by himself three times. He was surrounded by trash for over a decade and they still won consistently.



Young had three healthy seasons after Shanahan left and two ended in the NFC Title game. Not exactly a large sample size, but success in that sample size.



Possibly a legitimate point, but he has a small sample size (five years between the Browns and Pats) without Brady. Not nearly the sample size Shanahan has.



Walsh won the Pac-8 and coach of the year at Stanford and built those Niners teams, whereas Shanahan inherited Elway. He's also got the most impressive coaching tree in the history of sports (one of which is, guess who, Shanahan). Not really comparable.



Terry Bradshaw was an average NFL QB who rode the backs of Franco Harris and the Steel Curtain to four titles. He was just along for the ride and frankly if you look at his numbers he has no business being in the HOF. You would have been better off saying "Knoll without the Steel Curtain..." which in fact he built.

Shanahan inherited the majority of his '97 and '98 title teams when he got there in '95, and after Elway left he hovered around .500 almost every year with some very talented teams.

Now, the bigger issue here is that the Commanders just suck personel wise, not many coaches could do much with the complete and utter lack of skill position talent that Shanahan has.

Preach it!!!

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Elway took the Broncos to the Superbowl by himself three times. He was surrounded by trash for over a decade and they still won consistently.



Young had three healthy seasons after Shanahan left and two ended in the NFC Title game. Not exactly a large sample size, but success in that sample size.



Possibly a legitimate point, but he has a small sample size (five years between the Browns and Pats) without Brady. Not nearly the sample size Shanahan has.



Walsh won the Pac-8 and coach of the year at Stanford and built those Niners teams, whereas Shanahan inherited Elway. He's also got the most impressive coaching tree in the history of sports (one of which is, guess who, Shanahan). Not really comparable.



Terry Bradshaw was an average NFL QB who rode the backs of Franco Harris and the Steel Curtain to four titles. He was just along for the ride and frankly if you look at his numbers he has no business being in the HOF. You would have been better off saying "Knoll without the Steel Curtain..." which in fact he built.

Shanahan inherited the majority of his '97 and '98 title teams when he got there in '95, and after Elway left he hovered around .500 almost every year with some very talented teams.

Now, the bigger issue here is that the Commanders just suck personel wise, not many coaches could do much with the complete and utter lack of skill position talent that Shanahan has.

Here is a little news flash.

There are only 2 coaches in NFL history to win mutliple Superbowls with multiple QBs, Bill Parcells and Joe Gibbs, and for Parcells, he had Phil Simms playing until week 11 of the 1990 season. Gibbs got full seasons out of Theisman and Rypien in '82 and '91.

Which is why this argument is complete garbage. Hell, Shanahan got Jake Freakin Plummer to the AFC title game, and if you paid real close attention, you would figure out who was the offensive coordinator for 2 of the 3 Denver Superbowl teams in the 1980s. One Michael Edward Shanahan (from 1984-1987). Out of the 5 Superbowls Elway played, 4 of them he was being coached by Mike Shanahan

Looking at ALL Superbowl coaches, only 1 has won with mutliple QBs.

Again, a completely garbage argument which is very easy to dismiss

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Shanahan's drafting issues have more to do with defense than offense. He's good at finding offensive gems but needs help with the defensive shopping.

Which is why the Ravens have multiple Superbowl wins this past decade.

The 21st century NFL is an offensive NFL. One of the most vaunted defenses this past decade just got shredded in the Superbowl 4 months ago.

Build me an O that can score and give me a competent D that can make a play in the clutch.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

Personally, after seeing him play live in the Orange Bowl (oh what a debacle for my school) I am as sold on him as any QB prospect that I have paid close attention to the last 20 years.

You are combining Elway like athleticism, with Manning like smarts and a deadly arm. Add intangibles, such as being a smart Stanford kid running a pro style offense, and he is off the charts.

With the odds of even making the playoffs very low with the current roster, play the young draft picks, get experience for the Kerrigan, Hankerson, Jenkins, Nield, Helu, type players, weed out those who no longer fit and just hope that John Beck doesn't suffer a Theisman injury because that would be unfair to the young man.

If by some miracle Beck is the 2011 version of a 1999 Kurt Warner, fantastic, one less thing to worry about. If not, take the bumpy ride and be happy with that number 1 overall pick.

This would be made even easier to swallow if the season is cut short. Going 1-9 or 1-10 is far less painful then 1-15

At least he keeps it real. That's nice to have in a whipping boy. LOL

 

[Mansta54]

At least he keeps it real. That's nice to have in a whipping boy. LOL

They are gonna get hammered this year, they have NOTHING. Those clowns have finished DEAD LAST in the east consistentently and those cats keep comining around here talking noise. Unbelieavble!! They will finish DEAD LAST again this year too and MS will be on his way out...