Harry Potter 7 (spoilers inside)

[Faerluna]

It's not that I felt the books were above critique, but to compare them to books of a more complicated nature is asking too much of books from a younger genre.

Just like beginner books are simple, the older a child gets the more complicated and less obvious books will become, for the most part. Dick, Jane and Spot didn't have much character depth or plot.

Things that most adults (that read regularly) would find to be an "obvious" plot development or ending would be just part of the reading/learning experience for a younger reader - one for which the Harry Potter series was written.

I don't feel these books should be held under the same scrutiny. Again, just my feelings.

 

[Mavs Man]

It's not that I felt the books were above critique, but to compare them to books of a more complicated nature is asking too much of books from a younger genre.

Just like beginner books are simple, the older a child gets the more complicated and less obvious books will become, for the most part. Dick, Jane and Spot didn't have much character depth or plot.

Things that most adults (that read regularly) would find to be an "obvious" plot development or ending would be just part of the reading/learning experience for a younger reader - one for which the Harry Potter series was written.

I don't feel these books should be held under the same scrutiny. Again, just my feelings.

I don't think anyone here was critiquing the story for being too obvious or simple, as it was more a case of some people completely missing obvious developing storylines and then claiming that those storylines came together at the end without a natural progression.

There was also discussion on how Harry was able to defeat Voldemort, which again is certainly fair game. That is not a critique as much as it is trying to understand the story and the ending.

I am not sure who was comparing this series to more "complicated" adult books, but I would certainly place Harry Potter much, much closer to those types than the See Spot Run books.

 

[locked&loaded]

I completely disagree. If you truly understand it, then why do you have so many questions about it? Everything was spelled out pretty plainly. I really don't know what else to say to help you understand this book and the series as a whole.

For someone who claims to understand a book written "for 12 year olds", it seems that you sure missed a lot.

They were mostly complaints. I don't really think i have any questions on the books. Have you ever read a 600-700 page book that is so easy to read, with such small words? The books are for the 12-15 year old population. Their for children a story about good and evil, how love can overcome, and how much you need and depend on your friends. Think about it, it will come to you.

 

[Mavs Man]

They were mostly complaints. I don't really think i have any questions on the books.

You sure about that?

How did he master death? When he "died" it was voldemorts part of his soul that got hit, thats why voldemort fell down, am i right. I didnt like that part, also neville longbottom got brave oh so fast, ha o well. IF you guessed harry was a horrocrux more power to you, another gripe i had was you coudlnt guess what the horrocrux was, i personaly like books where you can form educated guesses this one hardly lets you do that. The only thing i can gloat about is, i told all my freinds snape was good and they said no, and i was dumb etc. I also think malfoy should of had a bigger part, when they were in their house the family asked if they were harry, hermoinee etc he went he wasnt sure.. their could of been more to it. i originaly thought malfoy sent doby.. that would of been cool. and whos idea was it to pull aberforth out of nowher, unless i forgot he wasnt mentioned before, and he worked that close to the school all that time... Also Ron must of hit puberty really fast or just turned straight, he was all over hermoinee. And i felt bad that hedgwig died, harry was just casting stunning spells, i would of been casting the 3 unforgiveables but i guess his heart was to pure. Also i wish harry had found out about snape differently, something with him protecting harry. INDEED I DO HAVE TONS OF LITTLE GRIPES ABOUT THIS BOOK, BUT WHEN I WAS READING IT I WAS VERY INTO IT, i just am negative i suppose. and their is supposed to be another book if no one is aware, shes calling it more of an encyclopedia

I like reading and give books a chance. if your a fast reader 2000 pages isnt all that much. its not like i read them non stop one after the other, i read all the harry potter books so there is no need to question that. I am not the biggest harry potter fan that is for sure, i find the books overated for fantasy books, whihc i tend to read more than any other genre. I guess the good vs evil won everyone over, and that is why it got so big. As i said earlier ron showed interest but nothing like this, neville wasnt a hero he just looked up to harry and admired him, or atleast that is how i looked at the book, he tried to follow in his foot steps. He dropped teh stone before he died, was he still the master of death even without the stone?

No questions, huh?

Have you ever read a 600-700 page book that is so easy to read, with such small words? The books are for the 12-15 year old population. Their for children a story about good and evil, how love can overcome, and how much you need and depend on your friends. Think about it, it will come to you.

:laugh2:

If I need help understanding these books, trust me, I do not need it from you.

 

[locked&loaded]

Maybe you should look all the way back, you cant have it both ways. Do you see question marks at the end of those? Those arent questions there comments, read them. And when i said was he still the master of death without the stone it was a question towards brain paint not the book. Honestly even the ones that you highlighted werent questions. What a poor attempt at trying to make a person look bad.

You sure about that?





No questions, huh?



:laugh2:

If I need help understanding these books, trust me, I do not need it from you.

 

[Mavs Man]

Maybe you should look all the way back, you cant have it both ways. Do you see question marks at the end of those? Those arent questions there comments, read them. And when i said was he still the master of death without the stone it was a question towards brain paint not the book. Honestly even the ones that you highlighted werent questions. What a poor attempt at trying to make a person look bad.

Right.

A few of your questions didn't have question marks because you simply failed to include the correct punctuation! Go back and read what you yourself wrote. Your poor use of grammar is no fault of mine.

Other comments I highlighted to show things you missed or did not understand, but seemed to blame us or the book for. Your response repeatedly varies from "yes, I do understand" or an insult to the book or the intellect of its readers.

Your move.

 

[Crown Royal]

1 - I have enjoyed this series every bit as much as I would any other 'adult' novel. It was story based and epic, not truely character based, like a Plath or a Nabokov might be, but every bit as enjoyable. It was wrought full of imagery, linguistic device, etc., as any book would be, and more masterful than any Grisham, Barker, or Clancy could hope for.

2 - While book five wasn't my favorite, I feel you greatly underrate the importance of the prophecy. The prophecy gave so much insight into the character of Harry Potter and, to a lesser degree, Longbottom & Voldemort. It showed that Potter was not some demigod, some highly skilled born into his birthright character, but a normal uman being like everyone else. That alone enriched the character for me. And the Longbottom side story was one of the most touching in the novel.

3. The movies - they look great, but I don't know if I'll even see the rest.

 

[locked&loaded]

Right.

A few of your questions didn't have question marks because you simply failed to include the correct punctuation! Go back and read what you yourself wrote. Your poor use of grammar is no fault of mine.

Other comments I highlighted to show things you missed or did not understand, but seemed to blame us or the book for. Your response repeatedly varies from "yes, I do understand" or an insult to the book or the intellect of its readers.

Your move.

So how is saying the book is for the younger population an insult to the readers? Im sure even you would agree that it is a very easy read, especially for being in the 700 page range. I didn't put a question mark because they were not intended to be questions. Except for the one to brain paint like earlier stated. And like i also said before, they were comments.

My move?

check and mate

 

[Crown Royal]

I fail to see why 'easy to read' is a requirement for being a childrens book. In my experience, books that are difficult to read have failed.

 

[Mavs Man]

So how is saying the book is for the younger population an insult to the readers? Im sure even you would agree that it is a very easy read, especially for being in the 700 page range.

You say you understand it and yet you had numerous questions or questioning statements that illustrated clearly the opposite. You did not "get" (read: understand) how the Ron-Herm relationship progressed, where Aberforth came from, how Harry died and mastered death, how the Deathly Hallows were involved, how the Dumbledore conversation at the end explained so many of your questions (yet, you considered it "dumb"), Neville's progression, et. al.

Somehow, repeating over and over that a 12 year old can easily read and understand this, given your statements that clearly show your lack of understanding (and reading comprehension), does not help your argument.

I didn't put a question mark because they were not intended to be questions. Except for the one to brain paint like earlier stated. And like i also said before, they were comments.

Direct Questions:

How did he master death?

When he "died" it was voldemorts part of his soul that got hit, thats why voldemort fell down, am i right. (note: in the English language this is written as a question)

whos idea was it to pull aberforth out of nowher (note: in the English language this is written as a question)

Your other comments were certainly calling into question the story and how it ended, however you want to argue semantics.

My move?

check and mate

Wow.

 

[Mavs Man]

1 - I have enjoyed this series every bit as much as I would any other 'adult' novel. It was story based and epic, not truely character based, like a Plath or a Nabokov might be, but every bit as enjoyable. It was wrought full of imagery, linguistic device, etc., as any book would be, and more masterful than any Grisham, Barker, or Clancy could hope for.

2 - While book five wasn't my favorite, I feel you greatly underrate the importance of the prophecy. The prophecy gave so much insight into the character of Harry Potter and, to a lesser degree, Longbottom & Voldemort. It showed that Potter was not some demigod, some highly skilled born into his birthright character, but a normal uman being like everyone else. That alone enriched the character for me. And the Longbottom side story was one of the most touching in the novel.

3. The movies - they look great, but I don't know if I'll even see the rest.

No argument from me with any of those. And I see your point in #2.

I thought the fifth movie was the best so far, and it still left out a disturbing amount of material.

 

[locked&loaded]

You say you understand it and yet you had numerous questions or questioning statements that illustrated clearly the opposite. You did not "get" (read: understand) how the Ron-Herm relationship progressed, where Aberforth came from, how Harry died and mastered death, how the Deathly Hallows were involved, how the Dumbledore conversation at the end explained so many of your questions (yet, you considered it "dumb"), Neville's progression, et. al.

Somehow, repeating over and over that a 12 year old can easily read and understand this, given your statements that clearly show your lack of understanding (and reading comprehension), does not help your argument.



Direct Questions:

How did he master death?

When he "died" it was voldemorts part of his soul that got hit, thats why voldemort fell down, am i right. (note: in the English language this is written as a question)

whos idea was it to pull aberforth out of nowher (note: in the English language this is written as a question)

Your other comments were certainly calling into question the story and how it ended, however you want to argue semantics.





Wow.

Wow i guess ill explain myself one more time, Maybe your not to high on actually reading what i say, or you just like being annoying.

AS I STATED BEFORE, HOW DID HE MASTER DEATH was a question towards brain paint, because i didnt think he did. When i said whos idea was it to pull aberforth out of nowhere, it didnt have a question mark, i thought that would be enough for people to understand it wasnt a question. But evidently we have english professors in here, who refuse to believe it was a statement. The one about where harry "died" Was also a question to a poster, it wasnt a question about the book. I wish i had the book my side, id really like to re- read where dumbledoor explained "everything". I remember him explaining the elder wand, i remember him telling how he didnt trust people, and he didnt want to tell harry everything or he might not carry on. I remember harry asking him if he was dead, i remember Dumbledoor saying its pretty much up to him if he is dead. But evidently i missed a whole much more.

You said next move, since im so clever i said check mate. like chess, its a game.

On a lighter note im reading The name of the wind anyone read it?

Edit- sorry forgot to respond to the 12 year old comment, i just want to know if you agree. Is the harry potter series a pretty easy read? Not to many big words in it? Not a ton of characters where it is hard to keep up, right? I mean honestly for a 600 to 700 page book its pretty easy or i think. My nieghbors little brothers read it, Its an enjoyable story. I seem to think its for the younger population. If you think its for adults i guess its up to you.

 

[Crown Royal]

Edit- sorry forgot to respond to the 12 year old comment, i just want to know if you agree. Is the harry potter series a pretty easy read? Not to many big words in it? Not a ton of characters where it is hard to keep up, right? I mean honestly for a 600 to 700 page book its pretty easy or i think. My nieghbors little brothers read it, Its an enjoyable story. I seem to think its for the younger population. If you think its for adults i guess its up to you.

Like I said elsewhere - I fail to understand how big words makes a book 'adult.' I read all kinds of books, and unless it is an older text, I generally feel it is a failure on the part of a book if it is overly difficult. Rowling's use of language is one of her best assets.

 

[Kevinicus]

1 - I have enjoyed this series every bit as much as I would any other 'adult' novel. It was story based and epic, not truely character based, like a Plath or a Nabokov might be, but every bit as enjoyable. It was wrought full of imagery, linguistic device, etc., as any book would be, and more masterful than any Grisham, Barker, or Clancy could hope for.

2 - While book five wasn't my favorite, I feel you greatly underrate the importance of the prophecy. The prophecy gave so much insight into the character of Harry Potter and, to a lesser degree, Longbottom & Voldemort. It showed that Potter was not some demigod, some highly skilled born into his birthright character, but a normal uman being like everyone else. That alone enriched the character for me. And the Longbottom side story was one of the most touching in the novel.

3. The movies - they look great, but I don't know if I'll even see the rest.

The prophecy may be useful for character development and insight, but as a plot device, how it was used in book 5, it was completely 100 percent useless. In the book it is presented as something that needs to be protected. To be kept away from Voldemort. That by having the prophecy, Voldemort would somehow have an advantage. They make such a big deal out of when it really has no use at this point in the story. Voldemort gains nothing from the prophecy, and really in the end, had he not received the prophecy, probably would have won, and Harry would be dead.

In book 5, they could have been fighting to save a $5 bill and it would have had the same importance.

The only real use of the prophecy is for character development, to show motivations for what happened in the past to Harry's parents, and Snape's turn, etc., but not as the central motivating plot device that people are willing to risk life and limb to keep out of someone's hands.


The movie fails mostly because it can't overcome the shortcomings of the story of Phoenix. Though it also fails because it leaves a lot of the more interesting aspects out or barely touches on them. Easily the worst movie so far. I expect HBP will be a much better movie. And I hope very much that Deathly Hallows is as great a movie as it can be. I also pray they leave in Mrs. Weasley's moment at the end, in its full glory.

 

[Mavs Man]

Wow i guess ill explain myself one more time, Maybe your not to high on actually reading what i say, or you just like being annoying.

AS I STATED BEFORE, HOW DID HE MASTER DEATH was a question towards brain paint, because i didnt think he did. When i said whos idea was it to pull aberforth out of nowhere, it didnt have a question mark, i thought that would be enough for people to understand it wasnt a question. But evidently we have english professors in here, who refuse to believe it was a statement. The one about where harry "died" Was also a question to a poster, it wasnt a question about the book. I wish i had the book my side, id really like to re- read where dumbledoor explained "everything". I remember him explaining the elder wand, i remember him telling how he didnt trust people, and he didnt want to tell harry everything or he might not carry on. I remember harry asking him if he was dead, i remember Dumbledoor saying its pretty much up to him if he is dead. But evidently i missed a whole much more.

I think we've finally stumbled upon the problem. Apparently when I said you were "questioning the book" you took that quite literally, as if I had suggested that you had directed your questions AT the book itself. That is the only explanation I can think of in how you are rationalizing yourself. Your questions (and questions missing a question mark) are most certainly about the content of the book, and how you didn't get what happened or why it happened or how it came about with little progression, regardless of WHO it is that you are asking.

And if I am considered the standard bearer for the English language, then we really have dumbed English down to an appalling level.

You said next move, since im so clever i said check mate. like chess, its a game.

Thank you for explaining that. That was a new one for me.

(note to self: a lesson on sarcasm is probably next)

Edit- sorry forgot to respond to the 12 year old comment, i just want to know if you agree. Is the harry potter series a pretty easy read? Not to many big words in it? Not a ton of characters where it is hard to keep up, right? I mean honestly for a 600 to 700 page book its pretty easy or i think. My nieghbors little brothers read it, Its an enjoyable story. I seem to think its for the younger population. If you think its for adults i guess its up to you.

Yes, it is fairly easy to read, though as Crown Royal continues to point out that does not in itself determine its level. "Adult" fiction is supposed to be easy to read, otherwise few would take the time to plow through one.

And yes, a child can read and understand the basic concepts of this series. But as you have clearly shown, grasping the basic concepts and understanding the finer details is far from one and the same.

Your first statement that started this little discussion displayed so much ignorance on the book that I couldn't help myself responding. Through mine and other posters' responses you have still not grasped why certain things have happened.

In reading over this thread I see that my earlier responses have been at times rude and arrogant, or at least past the point that I should be, and I apologize for that, though as can be seen likewise in your comments this has been a frustrating argument for both of us.

If you truly want to know why things happened in this book and how the story fits together very nicely, how Book Seven is an excellent wrap-up to the series, then I would suggest you re-read not only this book but the entire series from start to finish so you can see it for yourself.

But if you wish to remain where you are (that the book "blows", that the talk with Dumbledore was "dumb", that a lot of the storyline basically came out of nowhere, etc.), then by all means stay there, but let me know so we can end this increasingly useless discussion.

 

[Mavs Man]

The prophecy may be useful for character development and insight, but as a plot device, how it was used in book 5, it was completely 100 percent useless. In the book it is presented as something that needs to be protected. To be kept away from Voldemort. That by having the prophecy, Voldemort would somehow have an advantage. They make such a big deal out of when it really has no use at this point in the story. Voldemort gains nothing from the prophecy, and really in the end, had he not received the prophecy, probably would have won, and Harry would be dead.

In book 5, they could have been fighting to save a $5 bill and it would have had the same importance.

The only real use of the prophecy is for character development, to show motivations for what happened in the past to Harry's parents, and Snape's turn, etc., but not as the central motivating plot device that people are willing to risk life and limb to keep out of someone's hands.

The movie fails mostly because it can't overcome the shortcomings of the story of Phoenix. Though it also fails because it leaves a lot of the more interesting aspects out or barely touches on them. Easily the worst movie so far. I expect HBP will be a much better movie. And I hope very much that Deathly Hallows is as great a movie as it can be. I also pray they leave in Mrs. Weasley's moment at the end, in its full glory.

My complaint with the way the prophecy was used is mostly due to the hype that was involved. IT REVEALS A SECRET ABOUT HARRY POTTER! I was expecting something more than the revelation that we got, which in most ways was more than obvious. Not Rowling's fault it was made out to be something it wasn't.

The quote by Mrs. Weasley at the end of Deathly Hallows was priceless.

And kind of scary. Do not go between a mother and her cubs.