Has the black QB debate died

[tyke1doe]

I know you don't believe this BS you spew.

I happen to be a black father that lives in a predominately white "affluent" area.... Yet my work takes me 45 minuters across a bridge and into a town that's mostly black. I have attended many sporting events in both areas. What do I see?

I see black, white, spanish, asian etc etc fathers contributing to the development of our children in the sporting arena where I live. I play a sport near the area in which I work and through that avenue I am privy to a number of different youth football league throughout the town. Black fathers and black men in general are very active in fostering the development of our young boys on the football field. At least that's my experience. You might need to get out more.

Against my better judgment I responded to your post. I know I will regret doing so but what the hay...

First, I'm African-American too.

Second, It was a generalization. No situation applies to everyone.

Third, I have had a chance to make observations also. I'm merely trying to make sense of situations, as any thinking person would do. I would also ask you to note the many African-American players who talk about absent fathers in the home, yet they made it despite their lacking. How many more suffer because of the absence of a father in the home.

It's nothing to get all sensitive about. Chill.

 

[Kilyin]

But sometimes people pin someone as a running QB without noticing the whole package. There were bozos saying David Garrard was a running QB, when really he is much more like a Big Ben....taking what the D gives him and only occasionally running by design. Garrard is very accurate (and has a gun)but it took awhile for people to see that.

He isn't that accurate, and that's why he saw such a huge dropoff in 08 vs. 07, getting sacked twice as much, producing a lot more turnovers, and putting up very pedestrian numbers.

 

[Hostile]

Fact Alert: 2001 Heisman Trophy Winner Eric Crouch, QB from Nebraska was not an NFL QB. He was drafted as a WR by the Rams and played Safety in NFL Europe while the property of the Chiefs.

He was known for his scrambling ability, not his arm or discipline in the pocket. Many considered him too small to play QB in the NFL but he was 3 inches taller than Doug Flutie.

His failure wasn't due to his skin color, it was that he played in an NCAA gimmick offense that does not translate well to the NFL game. Option QBs do not make it in the NFL very often, and those who do are not usually successful.

 

[Doomsday101]

Fact Alert: 2001 Heisman Trophy Winner Eric Crouch, QB from Nebraska was not an NFL QB. He was drafted as a WR by the Rams and played Safety in NFL Europe while the property of the Chiefs.

He was known for his scrambling ability, not his arm or discipline in the pocket. Many considered him too small to play QB in the NFL but he was 3 inches taller than Doug Flutie.

His failure wasn't due to his skin color, it was that he played in an NCAA gimmick offense that does not translate well to the NFL game. Option QBs do not make it in the NFL very often, and those who do are not usually successful.

Pretty much the same for Matt Jones

 

[Bleu Star]

I don't think the issue is color, i.e., black quarterbacks don't succeed because they're black.

I agree it's the style of quarterback. But the question remains, why does one style seem to "fit" black quarterbacks and not another style. And that has to do, in many situations, with race as pertains to upbringing, training and opportunities.

I'm going to offer another controversial statement, though I stress I'm generalizing and that this statement does not apply to every situation.

For the most part, black kids get into athletics to stay out of trouble. In many urban youth programs, the goal isn't coaching or teaching the finer points of the game but to give kids an outlet other than the streets.

For the most part, white kids get into athletics because their fathers are chasing a dream and are students of the game. They want their children to be the best, and they overcompensate for their kids' lack of abilities through teaching them technique.

Personal example: I've already stated I moved from a mostly urban neighborhood and sports program to a neighborhood predominantly white. We play in the same football league with that urban neighborhood, so I still know many of the coaches and families.
I tell my friends and the coaches their team, by far, has more talented than any team in our league. Big guys, fast guys. But they never beat us. Do you know why? Because their coaches aren't students of the game like ours. Our coaches send scouts to video tape other teams the Saturdays we're not playing them. And our coaches (I'm an assistant coach) study film and devise strategies to beat other teams.
Since I'm the videographer for our team, I too breakdown film with my son, showing him proper technique, how he should attack angles, etc.
My friends in the other program tell me their coaches don't do that.
I tell them "That's why despite talent, you'll never beat our team." The top teams in our league all have coaches who are students of the game.

And you can best believe that this dedication is passed on to their children.

Just my take.

Too much generalization and sterotypical thought IMO...

Personal example: My little brother and I both enjoyed a modest upbringing. We always had food on the table, good clothes, a decent roof over our heads, money, chores, mother, father, etc etc. We both got into sports not to get away from anything negative in our neighborhood.. We got into it because our father was a huge fan of certain teams and at certain ages he gave us presents that cemented certain images in our minds. At age 10, while living 3 hours away from Dallas, my father brought home an authentic Dallas Cowboys football signed by Roger Staubach (probably fake but what did I know. I was 10). That was all she wrote. My brother and I both went on to enjoy careers in football at various levels beyond HS (with him going much further than me) but we never chose to do so to get away from anything. We did it because we enjoyed it. We enjoyed roughing each other up in the back yard and playing street ball on the grassy field in from of the elementary school a block away with other kids from the neighborhood.

Every situation is different...

 

[Hostile]

Pretty much the same for Matt Jones

Good point.

 

[Bleu Star]

First, I'm African-American too.

Second, It was a generalization. No situation applies to everyone.

Third, I have had a chance to make observations also. I'm merely trying to make sense of situations, as any thinking person would do. I would also ask you to note the many African-American players who talk about absent fathers in the home, yet they made it despite their lacking. How many more suffer because of the absence of a father in the home.

It's nothing to get all sensitive about. Chill.

No sensitivity... I just think it's a cop out argument.

 

[juck]

Poor decision making."run,run.run,maybe i should pass,no just RUN!!!!

Why are there no good white CBs or RBs?or any for that matter?

 

[Bleu Star]

I would also ask you to note the many African-American players who talk about absent fathers in the home, yet they made it despite their lacking. How many more suffer because of the absence of a father in the home.

Noted. Then I would also ask you to note the number of black players that also enjoy wholesome homes with fathers that absolutely were around for the duration of their adolescent lives. Those stories don't tend to hit the airwaves as often as the others... Obviously because they don't garner as much attention as the "I was raised with no father" stories.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Seems like at the beginnng of the decade their was all this talk about how the black QB would soon dominate the league like most of the other positions. You has players like McNabb, Culpepper, Leftwich, McNair, Carter all starting for teams. Now only McNabb and the last few years you don't see black QB's getting drafted. What's your opinion on the change?

The black or white QB debate lives and dies with the media. It has nothing to do with facts. If it did there would never be a debate(per Hostile's post)

WHEN/IF they want to resurrect the story - they will.



Since Vick did what he did. It got quiet. Well except for Donovan McDumb and lack of knowledge of the rule book.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

This type of talk can be traced to our traditional view of some athletes as better in some positions and worse in others.
Football has always thought of the QB position as the leader, the "thinking man's" position that, naturally, through our Jim Crow view of things, excluded the black man.

This has changed.
Teams now draft and position to win, not to segregate or pigeonhole.
When we started seeing many bllack QBs in the league and leading college teams, we naturally saw a shift and began talking about it.

Much the way we'd talk about a white cornerback or RB.

So, let us move on.
Mobile or staying in the pocket. It don't make no nevermind to be discussing this no more.
Just play the athlete where he excells. That's all.

 

[tyke1doe]

Too much generalization and sterotypical thought IMO...

Personal example: My little brother and I both enjoyed a modest upbringing. We always had food on the table, good clothes, a decent roof over our heads, money, chores, mother, father, etc etc. We both got into sports not to get away from anything negative in our neighborhood.. We got into it because our father was a huge fan of certain teams and at certain ages he gave us presents that cemented certain images in our minds. At age 10, while living 3 hours away from Dallas, my father brought home an authentic Dallas Cowboys football signed by Roger Staubach (probably fake but what did I know. I was 10). That was all she wrote. My brother and I both went on to enjoy careers in football at various levels beyond HS (with him going much further than me) but we never chose to do so to get away from anything. We did it because we enjoyed it. We enjoyed roughing each other up in the back yard and playing street ball on the grassy field in from of the elementary school a block away with other kids from the neighborhood.

Every situation is different...

A few problems with your example:

1. We're not talking about all kids who play sports or even all blacks kids who play football. We're talking primarily about all black kids who ultimately play in the NFL and become quarterbacks. We're trying to analyze why black quarterbacks aren't pocket passers like many white quarterbacks.

2. You picked a poor example to argue "every situation is different." With respect to this issue, you either have ... fathers who spend time with their sons helping them to develop their athletic skills (in particular quarterbacking skills) and those who didn't. Situations are going to fall into one category or the other, eliminating the "every situation is different" mantra.

3. I'm glad you prefaced your statement of me generalizing and stereotyping with "In My (Your) Opinion," because the facts which I use to draw a conclusion support my contention, not yours. According to statistics nearly 70 percent of black children are born out out wedlock and more than 58 percent of black children are raised by a single parent, mostly mothers. If more than half of our population are raised without the guidance of a male, I hardly think my observation is a stereotype. And I haven't even factor the dramatic increase of those percentages when we talk about black boys who play sports and those who go on to play on the college and pro level. Furthermore, single-parent families are more likely to be poor and raise poor children and have children who are more likely to get into trouble. Sports has traditionally been viewed as an avenue out of poverty and out of the streets. So when I say that many black families see sports as a way to keep their kids out of trouble, considering that most of our families are headed by single parents, I'm not far off the mark - your personal example notwithstanding.

4. You probably don't realize it, but you've just made an argument for every racists who thinks blacks don't have the mental capacity to be quarterback.
Think about it. You're basically saying that it's more normal for black boys to have fathers helping them and guiding them in sports. (This is the only conclusion I can draw by your statements that I'm generalizing and stereotyping.) If this is so, then how would you explain why blacks aren't generally viewed as pocket passers? One could conclude (erroneously I would say but nevertheless without a thorough evaluation of social dynamics which play a part in this discussion) that black athletes "Just don't get" the quarterbacking condition.
But it's deeper than that. It's a social issue that goes beyond mere athletics. And as I've pointed out, it has to do with the coaching black kids receive as well as the presence of a father (and a father involved in athletics) that plays a huge role in this discussion.

In summary, I doubt very seriously I'm stereotyping or generalizing "too much." All you've given me is ancedotes with no connection to the broader picture. I'll entertain a response fitting your personal example into a larger context.

 

[tyke1doe]

No sensitivity... I just think it's a cop out argument.

I really don't think you've understand the implication of your statement. See my point #4 in the above post.

 

[Bleu Star]

A few problems with your example:

1. We're not talking about all kids who play sports or even all blacks kids who play football. We're talking primarily about all black kids who ultimately play in the NFL and become quarterbacks. We're trying to analyze why black quarterbacks aren't pocket passers like many white quarterbacks.

2. You picked a poor example to argue "every situation is different." With respect to this issue, you either have ... fathers who spend time with their sons helping them to develop their athletic skills (in particular quarterbacking skills) and those who didn't. Situations are going to fall into one category or the other, eliminating the "every situation is different" mantra.

3. I'm glad you prefaced your statement of me generalizing and stereotyping with "In My (Your) Opinion," because the facts which I use to draw a conclusion support my contention, not yours. According to statistics nearly 70 percent of black children are born out out wedlock and more than 58 percent of black children are raised by a single parent, mostly mothers. If more than half of our population are raised without the guidance of a male, I hardly think my observation is a stereotype. And I haven't even factor the dramatic increase of those percentages when we talk about black boys who play sports and those who go on to play on the college and pro level. Furthermore, single-parent families are more likely to be poor and raise poor children and have children who are more likely to get into trouble. Sports has traditionally been viewed as an avenue out of poverty and out of the streets. So when I say that many black families see sports as a way to keep their kids out of trouble, considering that most of our families are headed by single parents, I'm not far off the mark - your personal example notwithstanding.

4. You probably don't realize it, but you've just made an argument for every racists who thinks blacks don't have the mental capacity to be quarterback.
Think about it. You're basically saying that it's more normal for black boys to have fathers helping them and guiding them in sports. (This is the only conclusion I can draw by your statements that I'm generalizing and stereotyping.) If this is so, then how would you explain why blacks aren't generally viewed as pocket passers? One could conclude (erroneously I would say but nevertheless without a thorough evaluation of social dynamics which play a part in this discussion) that black athletes "Just don't get" the quarterbacking condition.
But it's deeper than that. It's a social issue that goes beyond mere athletics. And as I've pointed out, it has to do with the coaching black kids receive as well as the presence of a father (and a father involved in athletics) that plays a huge role in this discussion.

In summary, I doubt very seriously I'm stereotyping or generalizing "too much." All you've given me is ancedotes with no connection to the broader picture. I'll entertain a response fitting your personal example into a larger context.

I've never been into writing short stories on here to argue a point and I am not about to start now. That said, I don't see racists. I know they're out there but recognition is the first false step IMO. I try to follow a more positive thought process and, thus far, that has served me well.

If someone were to cross me they would get dealt with. I would like to think the power of positive thinking and making good choices has something to do with the fact that people don't cross that line.

Stats are often deconstructed in many many ways.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

no black on black crime

Bleu Star

tyke

that means you!

 

[Bleu Star]

I really don't think you've understand the implication of your statement. See my point #4 in the above post.

I really don't think you understand my stance. At some point in time we have to move beyond #4. I prefer to think we've made progress and are moving in a positive direction.

 

[Bleu Star]

no black on black crime

Bleu Star

tyke

that means you!

:

 

[superpunk]

I feel like saying something really racist to give this thread the kick in the pants it so desperately needs if it is to ever reach it's full potential.

First I will alert kartr to it's presence.

 

[tyke1doe]

I really don't think you understand my stance. At some point in time we have to move beyond #4. I prefer to think we've made progress and are moving in a positive direction.

And I don't think you understand mine. It's not a matter of moving past #4. It's a matter of evaluating why things are the way they are in an attempt to solve problems.

It's kind of like me saying, many blacks make less money than whites and saying the reason why is because blacks (because of social factors such as single-parent families being a precursor to poverty) are less educated.

Then you argue, "That's a stereotype and generalization" and then give your personal example of how you went to college.

Your personal example is great, but it doesn't explain a societal phenomenon.

You can't "get over" the dynamics that lead to certain situations.

You have to acknowledge them, understand them and deal with them.

You appear to be confusing racism and racial stereotypes with social dynamics which impact race. I'm dealing with the latter.

 

[tyke1doe]

Noted. Then I would also ask you to note the number of black players that also enjoy wholesome homes with fathers that absolutely were around for the duration of their adolescent lives. Those stories don't tend to hit the airwaves as often as the others... Obviously because they don't garner as much attention as the "I was raised with no father" stories.

But you're using an example as a statistic. You can't do that.

If 60-70 percent of all African American children hail from single-family homes, why would you think that the lesser percentage of 30-40 percent would make up the majority of NFL players and quarterbacks for that matter?

My observation comes from statistics. Yours comes from examples. You do understand you can't argue anecodate to disprove a statistical phenomenon don't you?