Hitchens took all 1st team reps

[Szczepanik]

No. This is wrong on several fronts.

You're arguing that all players have the same anatomy and physiology as each other. That they all fall in exactly the same place on the range of human variation in terms of things like ligamentous laxity vs tautness, bone strength, speed and degree that they lay down scar tissue, integrity and strength of the connective tissue, muscle tone, etc. That doesn't fit what we know about human variation.

There's not a single human attribute that I can think of that doesn't have variation from one person to the next. If you have medical or health training, we could make a list of the attributes that exhibit variation, and it'd be a very very very long list that would take days or weeks to make and we'd still leave some out. Can you think of any attribute in which every person is exactly the same?

There is a really strong possiblity that some of those attributes - say ligamentous strength or tautness vs laxity - can show within normal ranges within the general population. But it's still not quite good enough under extreme conditions (like being an NFL player).. What's normal (not disease) for you and me may still not be adequate for an NFL player who is pushing the edge of the envelope in human performance. The idea that one player's "fragility" relative to his peers would automatically show up as 'disease', I can't buy that for a second. We don't have that level of sophistication of testing or understanding of all those variations.

I can get it that luck and randomness plays a part in why players get injured. Maybe Lee's history of soft tissue injuries dating back to college is purely randomness or luck. But you just can't say definitely that it's not related to any soft tissue weakness or instability or tendency to tear that he's got, that only shows up when playing a fast and violent game.

It is not wrong. We are both correct.

My argument was that there is no major anatomical or physiological difference between human beings playing a sport that would result him in being "injury prone".
<- There may be slight weaknesses in any structure, most likely the knee. What about his other injuries making him "prone"?->

While you bring up a valid point which is indeed true about ligament strength, elasticity, etc... this is all tested by team doctors and evaluated during physicals year round.

Scar tissue presents itself in repeat injuries TO REPEAT AREAS OF THE BODY. Lee's injury history is quite spread out in nature, and has no true pattern or correlation. So that term won't apply here.

Any weakness in ligament strength/tautness/laxity would be diagnosed or at least investigated as a possibility through one of the numerous team doctor visits, rehab visits, and physicals that the player is mandated to receive.

Do you really believe that the NFL team doctors would not be able to predict or assume the nature of one's ligaments with today's technology in one of the most violent sports played?

For example: DEXA scanning uses 2 high energy xray lasers that uses the characteristics of bone density/etc to measure the amount of body fat on an individual simply based on the adaptive nature of osteocytes and bone adaptability. So to say we don't have such technology available in the NFL to properly diagnose an athlete who has weaknesses in his ligaments is incorrect.

What is normal for you and me relative to our bodyweight? Our ligaments and bones adapt to the amount of force and resistance we put upon them. So are you implying that Sean Lee's physical makeup ignores common physiology, and refuses to adapt to the resistance placed upon it? Considering his knee , toe , neck, thumb , whatever you name it, is weakened structurally?

Now if it was completely and solely a nagging knee issue throughout his entire career, I would suggest you are correct in the sense that his knee has taken structural damage and the ligaments are therefore weakened. But considering his injuries are not connected to each other, and that Sean Lee does not have a diagnosed medical disorder..... the blame simply falls upon luck.

Unless we want to come to the conclusion that every joint, connective tissue, and bone in Sean Lee's body has some structural weakness.... which seems... improbable.

I agree that his knee could of checked out healthy in a evaluation, and when in a physical setting such as an NFL player is, his knee would give out due to the right angle and weight pressed upon it. BUT that would explain one of Lee's what...4 or 5 injuries he has had? He is a young linebacker, not a Jenga puzzle. It would not logically explain all of his other injuries. Which gives him the monicker "fragile".

I send a like on your quote, because I do love healthy debates! Gracias.

 

[Fredd]

Probably a zombie missing its ACL's.

that might just work!

 

[Szczepanik]

I agree.

Variation among species is a given.

I see patients all the time who simply cannot hold up to the daily rigors of their job without recurrent tendinitis or other maladies that their colleagues of the same age and build tolerate without any problem.

While it is not as likely in sports that an individual will have multiple injuries opposed to one chronically injured joint, it certainly does happen, and it doesn't require a definitive connective tissue or bone disease or steroid use.

I find that ironic because your default picture is a result of inbreeding dogs, which is homogenizing the genetic information of that species lol. Homogenization is taking the variation out of something more or less.

There are differences between the average Joe vs the average NFL player in regards to evaluations, and testing. As well as general health of ligaments. Over time of course they take such a beating, as evident by the NFL players of the past. I do think the policies and evaluations are quite different in that area though.

 

[Doc50]

I find that ironic because your default picture is a result of inbreeding dogs, which is homogenizing the genetic information of that species lol. Homogenization is taking the variation out of something more or less.

There are differences between the average Joe vs the average NFL player in regards to evaluations, and testing. As well as general health of ligaments. Over time of course they take such a beating, as evident by the NFL players of the past. I do think the policies and evaluations are quite different in that area though.

My analogy was chosen to point out the variation in tolerance of simple tasks, which would highlight the more likely extreme variance of tolerance in difficult tasks, some resulting in more serious injury.

I routinely evaluate high school and college athletes as well, and as we have come to learn, some are just more frequently injured than others.

 

[Clove]

regardless how we feel about him being injury prone or whatever, this is something that sets this man apart.

a lot of guys would sulk and feel sorry for themselves...this man the very next day is already helping a rookie with plays to make sure he still is helping the team in any way that he can.

he is the epitomy of "bad things happen to good people"

Tell me exactly how you know others don't do this? Because it's not reported? You do know that guys do good things all the time, but good news is not necessarily money makers. Please stop acting like he's the only one that does stuff like this. AT the end of the day, we need guys who can play, we have enough coaches.

 

[honyock]

I send a like on your quote, because I do love healthy debates! Gracias.

No problemo, a good argument can kill some time until the pads come on.

My argument was that there is no major anatomical or physiological difference between human beings playing a sport that would result him in being "injury prone".

Your argument seems to be that his injury history is a result of nothing more than luck. No other factors. That includes not only physiological factors, but temperament, approach to the game, workout habits, drive. Here's what I'm saying: Any of those attributes alone might not make someone more prone to injuries than others. Taken in combination, it's not so clearcut. It was the 100%, unequivocal nature of your statements that his string of injuries is absolutely not anything but luck that I'm disagreeing with.

Lee has had injuries in - I believe, without checking the history for the moment - seven straight years, counting college. Here's what you seem to be saying: it's random That's absolute. No other possibilities, no combination of factors that would make it anything else. If there were anything that indicated anything other than just luck, it would have easily been found by now.

And further, these things can be predicted and tested for. An NFL team will have pretty much the best orthopedists, best joint specialists, best trainers, soft tissue experts, access to state of the art testing, and they would know by now better than anyone, if it is as self evident to the medical profession as you say it is, that it is just plain bad luck.

So according to the "it's just bad luck" theory, coming into this year, Sean Lee had no more or less chance than anyone else to get injured. Next year, the same will be true. He's just equivalent to the unlucky guy who bet on heads and flipped the coin 50 times and had the bad fortune to have it be tails 50 straight times.

So if that's the case, and the team would obviously know this, and Lee, having access to all the same clearcut info that it is just luck...then why the need for the injury/playing time clauses in his contract? There's no need for those if it was just a run of bad luck. Why would the Cowboys feel a need for that? Why would Lee agree to it? It's not necessary if both are clear that it's just bad luck, and he has no more chance than any other player to be injured again. So with all that information, why would they agree to that totally unnecessary contract?

Do you really believe that the NFL team doctors would not be able to predict or assume the nature of one's ligaments with today's technology in one of the most violent sports played?

I do. There's no reason to think that small differences in soft tissue makeup, combined with other factors like playing style, tempermant, a frame that might have difficulty supporting muscle strength beyond a certain level, and who knows what other factors, can add up to being prone to injuries in ways that doctors can't predict from their testing. I'm not saying with certainty that that's the case with Lee. But I don't believe you can say with certainty that it's not the case, or at least a partial contributor to a series of injuries for him or anyone else.

And you're right that the injuries haven't been all in one location or one joint. But there have been a lot of joint issues, connective tissue issues, injuries that when taken as a whole sure make me suspicious that it may not be JUST bad luck.

What is normal for you and me relative to our bodyweight? Our ligaments and bones adapt to the amount of force and resistance we put upon them. So are you implying that Sean Lee's physical makeup ignores common physiology, and refuses to adapt to the resistance placed upon it? Considering his knee , toe , neck, thumb , whatever you name it, is weakened structurally?

When you're in a profession that pushes your body to it's limits, it's entirely possible to push it to the point that things start to fail because it just can't adapt anymore. We're very adaptive creatures, but there are limits. I think that's part of why we hear of more injuries like Achilles, biceps and pectoralis tendons detaching these days. As a group, I think that they're pushing the limits of how much muscle mass and strength the human frame can adapt to. So yes, I think that there is a point probably for everyone where their body refuses to, or simply can't, adapt anymore. That point may be very different for each of them.

That end of the road for the ability to adapt is not going to show up for you and me as frequently as it is for a high performance athlete. But some of them, probably based on a number of variables, including some luck like you say, won't be able to handle it.

Unless we want to come to the conclusion that every joint, connective tissue, and bone in Sean Lee's body has some structural weakness.... which seems... improbable.

I'm going to emphasize this again. It could be a "structural weakness" only relative to his peers. This isn't really just Lee, but any player. A slow safety is still faster than almost all of us. A small defensive tackle is still big relative to most of us. A football player who is "prone to run slowly" is only slow relative to his peers, but it might help lead to costing him a long career. World class competition can reveal weaknesses that aren't weaknesses anywhere else in life.

And yes, if any athlete has ligaments that are a little on the lax or a little on the taut end of the range, or soft tissue that is more or less pliable or have less or greater fiber matrix than others, then that can certainly show up in every joint, connective tissue and bone in their body. That's not improbable at all, I've seen it in any number of athletes and in the general population. In some professions that might be a slight advantage, in others a slight disadvantage. What good for the Cirque du Soleil performer may not be so good for the NFL player or rodeo cowboy.

I agree that his knee could of checked out healthy in a evaluation, and when in a physical setting such as an NFL player is, his knee would give out due to the right angle and weight pressed upon it. BUT that would explain one of Lee's what...4 or 5 injuries he has had? He is a young linebacker, not a Jenga puzzle. It would not logically explain all of his other injuries. Which gives him the monicker "fragile".

We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. A pattern of injuries to the same or related tissue, even if it's not always in the same area of the body, could very well imply relationship. Again, I'm not saying with anything near certainty that this is the case with Lee. But my argument here is with your assertion that it can be said with certainty that it's only luck and nothing but luck.

I agree with you that there is some luck and randomness involved with injuries. I just can't go as far in saying with certainty that it's nothing but luck.

 

[Doc50]

It is not wrong. We are both correct.

My argument was that there is no major anatomical or physiological difference between human beings playing a sport that would result him in being "injury prone".
<- There may be slight weaknesses in any structure, most likely the knee. What about his other injuries making him "prone"?->

While you bring up a valid point which is indeed true about ligament strength, elasticity, etc... this is all tested by team doctors and evaluated during physicals year round.

Scar tissue presents itself in repeat injuries TO REPEAT AREAS OF THE BODY. Lee's injury history is quite spread out in nature, and has no true pattern or correlation. So that term won't apply here.

Any weakness in ligament strength/tautness/laxity would be diagnosed or at least investigated as a possibility through one of the numerous team doctor visits, rehab visits, and physicals that the player is mandated to receive.

Do you really believe that the NFL team doctors would not be able to predict or assume the nature of one's ligaments with today's technology in one of the most violent sports played?

For example: DEXA scanning uses 2 high energy xray lasers that uses the characteristics of bone density/etc to measure the amount of body fat on an individual simply based on the adaptive nature of osteocytes and bone adaptability. So to say we don't have such technology available in the NFL to properly diagnose an athlete who has weaknesses in his ligaments is incorrect.

What is normal for you and me relative to our bodyweight? Our ligaments and bones adapt to the amount of force and resistance we put upon them. So are you implying that Sean Lee's physical makeup ignores common physiology, and refuses to adapt to the resistance placed upon it? Considering his knee , toe , neck, thumb , whatever you name it, is weakened structurally?

Now if it was completely and solely a nagging knee issue throughout his entire career, I would suggest you are correct in the sense that his knee has taken structural damage and the ligaments are therefore weakened. But considering his injuries are not connected to each other, and that Sean Lee does not have a diagnosed medical disorder..... the blame simply falls upon luck.

Unless we want to come to the conclusion that every joint, connective tissue, and bone in Sean Lee's body has some structural weakness.... which seems... improbable.

I agree that his knee could of checked out healthy in a evaluation, and when in a physical setting such as an NFL player is, his knee would give out due to the right angle and weight pressed upon it. BUT that would explain one of Lee's what...4 or 5 injuries he has had? He is a young linebacker, not a Jenga puzzle. It would not logically explain all of his other injuries. Which gives him the monicker "fragile".

I send a like on your quote, because I do love healthy debates! Gracias.

The reference you make to DEXA scanning and bone strength is not really valid in this discussion of Lee because his injuries have been of ligaments and tendons, not bone. And though you readily assume that the strength and durability of these tissues can be readily assessed, the microscopic and physiologic variations that may be present would require a biopsy to evaluate. Research is in fact ongoing on surgical specimens and in animals in order to better understand variations in connective tissue strength and pliability. Likewise, clinical studies on cartilage durability have been in progress for many years.

Answers for these medical dilemmas will be a bit late for Lee and Spencer.

 

[Szczepanik]

No problemo, a good argument can kill some time until the pads come on.



Your argument seems to be that his injury history is a result of nothing more than luck. No other factors. That includes not only physiological factors, but temperament, approach to the game, workout habits, drive. Here's what I'm saying: Any of those attributes alone might not make someone more prone to injuries than others. Taken in combination, it's not so clearcut. It was the 100%, unequivocal nature of your statements that his string of injuries is absolutely not anything but luck that I'm disagreeing with.

Lee has had injuries in - I believe, without checking the history for the moment - seven straight years, counting college. Here's what you seem to be saying: it's random That's absolute. No other possibilities, no combination of factors that would make it anything else. If there were anything that indicated anything other than just luck, it would have easily been found by now.

And further, these things can be predicted and tested for. An NFL team will have pretty much the best orthopedists, best joint specialists, best trainers, soft tissue experts, access to state of the art testing, and they would know by now better than anyone, if it is as self evident to the medical profession as you say it is, that it is just plain bad luck.

So according to the "it's just bad luck" theory, coming into this year, Sean Lee had no more or less chance than anyone else to get injured. Next year, the same will be true. He's just equivalent to the unlucky guy who bet on heads and flipped the coin 50 times and had the bad fortune to have it be tails 50 straight times.

So if that's the case, and the team would obviously know this, and Lee, having access to all the same clearcut info that it is just luck...then why the need for the injury/playing time clauses in his contract? There's no need for those if it was just a run of bad luck. Why would the Cowboys feel a need for that? Why would Lee agree to it? It's not necessary if both are clear that it's just bad luck, and he has no more chance than any other player to be injured again. So with all that information, why would they agree to that totally unnecessary contract?



I do. There's no reason to think that small differences in soft tissue makeup, combined with other factors like playing style, tempermant, a frame that might have difficulty supporting muscle strength beyond a certain level, and who knows what other factors, can add up to being prone to injuries in ways that doctors can't predict from their testing. I'm not saying with certainty that that's the case with Lee. But I don't believe you can say with certainty that it's not the case, or at least a partial contributor to a series of injuries for him or anyone else.

And you're right that the injuries haven't been all in one location or one joint. But there have been a lot of joint issues, connective tissue issues, injuries that when taken as a whole sure make me suspicious that it may not be JUST bad luck.



When you're in a profession that pushes your body to it's limits, it's entirely possible to push it to the point that things start to fail because it just can't adapt anymore. We're very adaptive creatures, but there are limits. I think that's part of why we hear of more injuries like Achilles, biceps and pectoralis tendons detaching these days. As a group, I think that they're pushing the limits of how much muscle mass and strength the human frame can adapt to. So yes, I think that there is a point probably for everyone where their body refuses to, or simply can't, adapt anymore. That point may be very different for each of them.

That end of the road for the ability to adapt is not going to show up for you and me as frequently as it is for a high performance athlete. But some of them, probably based on a number of variables, including some luck like you say, won't be able to handle it.



I'm going to emphasize this again. It could be a "structural weakness" only relative to his peers. This isn't really just Lee, but any player. A slow safety is still faster than almost all of us. A small defensive tackle is still big relative to most of us. A football player who is "prone to run slowly" is only slow relative to his peers, but it might help lead to costing him a long career. World class competition can reveal weaknesses that aren't weaknesses anywhere else in life.

And yes, if any athlete has ligaments that are a little on the lax or a little on the taut end of the range, or soft tissue that is more or less pliable or have less or greater fiber matrix than others, then that can certainly show up in every joint, connective tissue and bone in their body. That's not improbable at all, I've seen it in any number of athletes and in the general population. In some professions that might be a slight advantage, in others a slight disadvantage. What good for the Cirque du Soleil performer may not be so good for the NFL player or rodeo cowboy.



We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. A pattern of injuries to the same or related tissue, even if it's not always in the same area of the body, could very well imply relationship. Again, I'm not saying with anything near certainty that this is the case with Lee. But my argument here is with your assertion that it can be said with certainty that it's only luck and nothing but luck.

I agree with you that there is some luck and randomness involved with injuries. I just can't go as far in saying with certainty that it's nothing but luck.

Yeah I agree with the majority of the points made. I just have a rough time labeling him as "fragile" . If there is any pattern concerning his injuries, the knees would be it. I almost would of classified it as a vehicle who's tire goes out, then the following week gets rear ended and takes a ton of damage, followed by the next week having the battery go out, followed by... you get the idea!

In the end, it is probably a combination of a weakness in tissues + unfortunate circumstance .

 

[Szczepanik]

The reference you make to DEXA scanning and bone strength is not really valid in this discussion of Lee because his injuries have been of ligaments and tendons, not bone. And though you readily assume that the strength and durability of these tissues can be readily assessed, the microscopic and physiologic variations that may be present would require a biopsy to evaluate. Research is in fact ongoing on surgical specimens and in animals in order to better understand variations in connective tissue strength and pliability. Likewise, clinical studies on cartilage durability have been in progress for many years.

Answers for these medical dilemmas will be a bit late for Lee and Spencer.

I no where in my argument compared DEXA to ligaments, it was merely an example for the other readers serving the purpose to show how far technology has come. Fun facts for people who don't have knowledge in the area make for better arguments when their are observers reading!

 

[honyock]

Yeah I agree with the majority of the points made. I just have a rough time labeling him as "fragile" . If there is any pattern concerning his injuries, the knees would be it. I almost would of classified it as a vehicle who's tire goes out, then the following week gets rear ended and takes a ton of damage, followed by the next week having the battery go out, followed by... you get the idea!

In the end, it is probably a combination of a weakness in tissues + unfortunate circumstance .

We're in agreement on that.

 

[DallasDW00ds0n]

I love how people are excited about Hitchens because he's taking first team reps. It's not like he was going to be taking first team reps with Lee playing, he's taking them now simply because there is no one else.

 

[Carolina Cowboy]

This guy has to play because we have no one else.

Great pick!

Beat me too it. Not a question of can, because out of need he will.