How To Fix It Jerry's Way

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And you keep buying your "9-7" T-shirts OK?

:laugh2:

I've been intentionally steering away from you brah cause I don't want last offseason redux. I do miss the fan club though.

All I am going to say is nothing is as good or as bad as it seems.

I kinda agree with theo when he says that if Romo doesnt break his hand we are in the playoffs and all of this is much ado about nothing. I am not going to say things are perfect. They never are.

At the same time I am not going to panic and start acting like an angry drunk like this board as a whole has for the last weeks.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't think you are hearing me. I KNOW that I don't know the first thing about scouting a prospect as a professional. I am not the one with illusions of grandeur, JERRY JONES IS.

And I have NEVER heard Shanahan, Fisher or Parcells say they have respect for Jerry Jones as a SCOUT. They respect him as someone who wants to win and is willing to spend to do it. Parcells babied Jerry Jones, gave him a pacifier, and allowed him the perception (though the public never completely bought it) that he "shared" talent evaluation with Jerry.

Do you really think that Parcells respected Jerry's opinion on a prospect more than his own? Really?

Innuendo and suppositions. I am done here. Have fun with your opinion.

His drafts and FA aquisitions have been top notch so what you think of Jerry is really immaterial.

 

[rcaldw]

Innuendo and suppositions. I am done here. Have fun with your opinion.

His drafts and FA aquisitions have been top notch so what you think of Jerry is really immaterial.

Adios and good day! Btw, just know that my opinion is shared by a whole lot of people that DO KNOW FOOTBALL.

I don't know of too many football people in the world who think that Jerry Jones should be in the middle of football operations the way that he is. I don't need to list all the people here who have gone on record about that, you hear them just like I do.

And again, they DO know professional football. Most of them did it for a living, unlike me, or you for that matter.

 

[Bach]

Nor is sitting in the stand with real scouts. To be a scout you have to know what you are looking at. We (and I include Jerry in this) know talent in general terms, real football people see things we don't see. Do you trust that Jerry sees things that you don't see? I don't.

Jerry is nothing more than a fan with a lot of money. A dumb fan at that. Most GM's were once scouts and personnel men who worked their way up. Jerry's just an oilman who bought a team and watch Jimmy and the scouts build a championship team and then get his ego hurt when he didn't get the credit for it.

He doesn't know the first thing about evaluating players, only what he's told. Our main hope now lies with the fact that Lacewell is no longer at Valley Ranch. During the Parcells/Ireland years we had a resurgence. Ireland was still here in '07 and didn't leave until last winter so we even had most of his legwork on the '08 class already done for us.

Now we can only hope that Ciskowski and the rest of the scouting dept. are up to snuff and Jerry listens to them.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Adios and good day! Btw, just know that my opinion is shared by a whole lot of people that DO KNOW FOOTBALL.

I don't know of too many football people in the world who think that Jerry Jones should be in the middle of football operations the way that he is. I don't need to list all the people here who have gone on record about that, you hear them just like I do.

And again, they DO know professional football. Most of them did it for a living, unlike me, or you for that matter.

Have any of them even met Jones much less sat and down and had a conversation with him?

 

[Bach]

Adios and good day! Btw, just know that my opinion is shared by a whole lot of people that DO KNOW FOOTBALL.

I don't know of too many football people in the world who think that Jerry Jones should be in the middle of football operations the way that he is. I don't need to list all the people here who have gone on record about that, you hear them just like I do.

And again, they DO know professional football. Most of them did it for a living, unlike me, or you for that matter.

Don't mind Fuzzy. I doubt he even believes half of what he posts. My theory is he just likes to play the "homer" on here and possibly is even someone's alias.

If he really is serious, then I can only laugh at him.

 

[rcaldw]

Have any of them even met Jones much less sat and down and had a conversation with him?

Fuzzy, let me ask you something, because even when I disagree with you, I think at times you put thought into your posts, and that you have reasons for what you say, which I respect, I think we should all have substantive opinions not just throw out something to get a reaction.

So let me ask you. Forget for a moment scouts, NFL people, and all the rest.

Do you personally believe that Jerry Jones, by himself, is qualified to be a good scout of NFL talent?

Do you believe that if you take Jerry away from his scouts and his numerous NFL contacts, and just leave him to his own views, his own opinions, his own powers of evaluation, he would be a good talent evaluator, and know how to put a roster together?

I'm not asking if you think Jerry is a good owner, or has done a good job listening to the right people (which IS praiseworthy, I'm not discounting that).

I'm asking do you really think that Jerry Jones can make a real, independent and knowledgeable contribution to talent evaluation and that he knows what he is doing to put together a winning football team?

Let me put it another way.

If tomorrow Jerry Jones lost his fortune and had no money. All he has now is the experience that he has gathered in his 20 years in the NFL.

And you owned an NFL team. Would you hire Jerry Jones to scout players for you?

I'm not asking if you would hire him as your PR guy. I'm not asking if you would hire him as a business consultant. I'm asking if you would hire him as a straightforward GM of your football team?

If your answer is yes, then fine, we disagree.
If your answer is an honest no, then why doesn't he stop pretending to be that?

 

[Stash]

I've been intentionally steering away from you brah cause I don't want last offseason redux. I do miss the fan club though.

All I am going to say is nothing is as good or as bad as it seems.

I kinda agree with theo when he says that if Romo doesnt break his hand we are in the playoffs and all of this is much ado about nothing. I am not going to say things are perfect. They never are.

At the same time I am not going to panic and start acting like an angry drunk like this board as a whole has for the last weeks.

I think it's all a matter of perspective.

You're right about it never being as good or as bad as it seems. The true answer is always somewhere in between.

But that's the case for everything we post around here anyway and there will always be drastically different opinions.

Not that one's right or one's wrong, just that they're different. And none more valuable than the other.

But I think given the disappointing end to what was to be a 'Super Bowl' season, I think folks have the right to complain. And worried that little seems to be changing to give us hope in '09.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy, let me ask you something, because even when I disagree with you, I think you put thought into your posts, and that you have reasons for what you say, which I respect, I think we should all have substantive opinions not just throw out something to get a reaction.

So let me ask you. Forget for a moment scouts, NFL people, and all the rest.

Do you personally believe that Jerry Jones, by himself, is qualified to be a good scout of NFL talent?

Do you believe that if you take Jerry away from his scouts and his numerous NFL contacts, and just leave him to his own views, his own opinions, his own powers of evaluation, he would be a good talent evaluator, and know how to put a roster together?

I'm not asking if you think Jerry is a good owner, or has done a good job listening to the right people (which IS praiseworthy, I'm not discounting that).

I'm asking do you really think that Jerry Jones can make a real, independent and knowledgeable contribution to talent evaluation and that he knows what he is doing to put together a winning football team?

Let me put it another way.

If tomorrow Jerry Jones lost his fortune and had no money. All he has now is the experience that he has gathered in his 20 years in the NFL.

And you owned an NFL team. Would you hire Jerry Jones to scout players for you?

I'm not asking if you would hire him as your PR guy. I'm not asking if you would hire him as a business consultant. I'm asking if you would hire him as a straightforward GM of your football team?

If your answer is yes, then fine, we disagree.
If your answer is an honest no, then why doesn't he stop pretending to be that?

I think that if you take any NFL person away from his scouting department that he is going to not be able to construct a quality roster.

I also think that Jerry Jones can go to a Senior Bowl practice and by himself be able to determine who is an NFL prospect and who is not much better than you or I.

we just disagree on the point. Its no big deal and I would like to add that I appreciate your attempt to put a new angle and a solution to what ails VR.

 

[2233boys]

You can talk all day long about 'how he talks' but do me a favor and speak for yourself. You can make assumptions about how Jones involves himself with the coaching staff off of media suppositions and innuendo. I don't care anymore.

As for Jerry the GM and chooser of personnell, he has done a stellar job the last few years. Sure he has made some mistakes but his successes are more prevalent especially the last couple of drafts and FA moves.

Thats what I love. General fan and media moron bash Jones as a football guy but the man has gone to the senior bowl, combine, pro days etc for 20 years. He has sat down and talked the subject with guys like Johnson, Fisher, Shanahan, and Parcells.

Jerry may smack his lips but to think that you know more about football than his is laughable. Don't fall into the same egotistical nonsense that 99% of DFW sports beat does.

You are fooling yourself if you think this team will win anything. With Jerry as GM. You would have to be an idiot to think that any of the drafts in the last few years weren't because of guys named Parcells and Ireland. He is an idiot, that thinks he knows how to run a team. All he knows is how to run a team into the ground. Until he hires a real GM the Cowboys won't win ****.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

"The Dallas Cowboys organization is NOT in disarray. Everything is fine.
Fine I say. We have everything under control. All the problems you see are just an illusion"

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You are fooling yourself if you think this team will win anything. With Jerry as GM. You would have to be an idiot to think that any of the drafts in the last few years weren't because of guys named Parcells and Ireland. He is an idiot, that thinks he knows how to run a team. All he knows is how to run a team into the ground. Until he hires a real GM the Cowboys won't win ****.

Great insight there. You should have just typed 'Jerry sucks' because that was about how much this post brought to the discussion.

 

[rcaldw]

"The Dallas Cowboys organization is NOT in disarray. Everything is fine.
Fine I say. We have everything under control. All the problems you see are just an illusion"

I loved that guy, the minister of propaganda. Talk about a clown. And yes, Jerry needs to hire him.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Hey rcaldw, just a point... I don't think Jerry does look at film and evaluate players. I think he 90% listens to his scouts and coaches. He's surely not putting the draft board together or anything like that.

The problem IMO is that in the past, Jerry was surrounded by incompetents like Lacewell. And his coaches didn't know personnel, either. Now I do think that where players are roughly equal and his people are arguing for one or another, he grabs for "potential" too often instead of good, solid football players... Just like with Alan Ball vs. Courtney Brown. But overall, the draft last year was outstanding. I think that's because Ciskowski is pretty good and Jerry listened to him. I also think Wade knows a little about talent on defense, too. For sure more than Campo did.

If we just draft 75-80% as well as we did last year with an emphasis on OL, LB, and DL, we're going to be in good shape for several years.

 

[Dodger12]

Hey rcaldw, just a point... I don't think Jerry does look at film and evaluate players. I think he 90% listens to his scouts and coaches. He's surely not putting the draft board together or anything like that.

The problem IMO is that in the past, Jerry was surrounded by incompetents like Lacewell. And his coaches didn't know personnel, either. Now I do think that where players are roughly equal and his people are arguing for one or another, he grabs for "potential" too often instead of good, solid football players... Just like with Alan Ball vs. Courtney Brown. But overall, the draft last year was outstanding. I think that's because Ciskowski is pretty good and Jerry listened to him. I also think Wade knows a little about talent on defense, too. For sure more than Campo did.

If we just draft 75-80% as well as we did last year with an emphasis on OL, LB, and DL, we're going to be in good shape for several years.

Jerry's done better and had some solid drafts, although 2007 is looking questionable when your best pick is a kicker.

If this season's shown us anything, it's that drafting is only half the battle, especially if you're going to draft guys with allot of tallent but a questionable work ethic like Spencer or Bennett. Jerry still needs to let his coaches coach and not undermine them or coddle his players.

 

[Jon88]

The drafts from 1994 to 2001 were terrible and were a big reason why the team was run into the ground.

 

[rcaldw]

Hey rcaldw, just a point... I don't think Jerry does look at film and evaluate players. I think he 90% listens to his scouts and coaches. He's surely not putting the draft board together or anything like that.

The problem IMO is that in the past, Jerry was surrounded by incompetents like Lacewell. And his coaches didn't know personnel, either. Now I do think that where players are roughly equal and his people are arguing for one or another, he grabs for "potential" too often instead of good, solid football players... Just like with Alan Ball vs. Courtney Brown. But overall, the draft last year was outstanding. I think that's because Ciskowski is pretty good and Jerry listened to him. I also think Wade knows a little about talent on defense, too. For sure more than Campo did.

If we just draft 75-80% as well as we did last year with an emphasis on OL, LB, and DL, we're going to be in good shape for several years.

I don't disagree with you at all. And I have no problem (like it would matter if I did ), with Jerry acting as the GM in that kind of way. It just drives me nuts to hear him talk about players as if he is a scout or a coach when you know he is just parroting what he has heard someone else say, or his view is absolutely ridiculous because he is revealing HIS OWN "knowledge".

But, yes, a very good draft this past year and we certainly all hope for of that in the future.

 

[Idgit]

Jerry Jones doesn't get the credit he deserves on this board, and much of the criticism of him is empty. He's an immensely talented man who's prone to taking calculated risks.

If you're going to be critical of him, I think the criticism should take a couple of important factors into consideration. One, he's put himself in a very difficult role, because the requirements for an NFL owner and the requirements for an NFL GM are very different. At times, what's good for the organization is not the same thing as what's good for the team and when the decision making process for both roles is inside the head of one man, then Jerry needs to be very careful that he's got good boundaries and good balance between his responsibilities. For example, TO is a huge, huge player for the organization. The free press he brings alone is enormous. He keeps other teams' message boards talking about the Cowboys in the offseason. He sells merchandise, and has a direct contribution to the popularity of the Cowboys. His play on the field or effect in the locker room may or may not undermine his positives to the organization, but Jerry's asking a lot of himself in representing both sides of the issue in trying to make the right decision.

A second consideration is that maybe the role of NFL GM is just one where extreme risk takers are unlikely to succeed. Clearly, some risks and some luck are involved in putting together a championship team, but it may just be the case that this positions lends itself towards personality types who typically make sound reasonable decisions and then occasionally go way out on a limb with a calculated risk. Where maybe you have the luxury of taking risks with, say, 5% of your decisions rather than 20%, and that with the handful of other stable, consistent teams at the top of the league, the Cowboys just can't afford the added uncertainty Jerry brings to the table.

This is all just theoretical, but the point of it is that Jerry shouldn't be immune to criticism because he's the guy that makes the ultimate decisions and his decisions haven't gotten the results we expect. The form that criticism takes, though, should be sensible. The guy's not an idiot. He's not by any reasonable estimate ingorant about football operations. He's dedicated and willing to spend his money. He's also very willing to change--sometimes dramatically--if he thinks its in the best interest of both the team and the organization. If we can just manage to criticize the guy in perspective, I think almost everybody on the board can agree on what we have--and don't have--in Jerry Jones.

 

[bysbox1]

Jerry Jones doesn't get the credit he deserves on this board, and much of the criticism of him is empty. He's an immensely talented man who's prone to taking calculated risks.

If you're going to be critical of him, I think the criticism should take a couple of important factors into consideration. One, he's put himself in a very difficult role, because the requirements for an NFL owner and the requirements for an NFL GM are very different. At times, what's good for the organization is not the same thing as what's good for the team and when the decision making process for both roles is inside the head of one man, then Jerry needs to be very careful that he's got good boundaries and good balance between his responsibilities. For example, TO is a huge, huge player for the organization. The free press he brings alone is enormous. He keeps other teams' message boards talking about the Cowboys in the offseason. He sells merchandise, and has a direct contribution to the popularity of the Cowboys. His play on the field or effect in the locker room may or may not undermine his positives to the organization, but Jerry's asking a lot of himself in representing both sides of the issue in trying to make the right decision.

A second consideration is that maybe the role of NFL GM is just one where extreme risk takers are unlikely to succeed. Clearly, some risks and some luck are involved in putting together a championship team, but it may just be the case that this positions lends itself towards personality types who typically make sound reasonable decisions and then occasionally go way out on a limb with a calculated risk. Where maybe you have the luxury of taking risks with, say, 5% of your decisions rather than 20%, and that with the handful of other stable, consistent teams at the top of the league, the Cowboys just can't afford the added uncertainty Jerry brings to the table.

This is all just theoretical, but the point of it is that Jerry shouldn't be immune to criticism because he's the guy that makes the ultimate decisions and his decisions haven't gotten the results we expect. The form that criticism takes, though, should be sensible. The guy's not an idiot. He's not by any reasonable estimate ingorant about football operations. He's dedicated and willing to spend his money. He's also very willing to change--sometimes dramatically--if he thinks its in the best interest of both the team and the organization. If we can just manage to criticize the guy in perspective, I think almost everybody on the board can agree on what we have--and don't have--in Jerry Jones.

This is exactly on the mark. And the most objective insight I have heard about this team in weeks (and yes that's coming from me who has blased everyone on this team for the last month.

It also supports the issue that the Dallas Cowboys desperately needs a GM. Heck, Jerry could keep it in the house and even give the task to his Stephen Jones. Stephen is well respected in the NFL and has that "calculated risk" mentality. But the GM position would more than like be better suited to someone outside the organization who can put a fresh set of eyes on the situation.

 

[Bach]

Hey rcaldw, just a point... I don't think Jerry does look at film and evaluate players. I think he 90% listens to his scouts and coaches. He's surely not putting the draft board together or anything like that.

That's why him being the GM is a joke. Most GM's can actually evaluate talent. All Jerry has ever done is give himself a title and then make the final call (or rubberstamp someone else's decision). The GM should be able to look at film and evaluate as well and not just take the info someone else gives him and then make a decison between player A, B, or C.

But I do agree that as long as he surrounds himself with good personnel men and listens to them, then we can have good drafts. It's just kind of dumb to have the man in charge be the weakest link.