How would you feel about Henry Ruggs at 17?

[cnuball21]

Don't think you're understanding what is being said. One of the 1st things I said was a pure speed receiver with no other receiving ability is not worth a 1st rounder. The quality speed receivers with actual skill do not drop past the 2nd round. Speed receivers aren't necessarily there to put up massive numbers. They just need to be good enough to prove they're legit threats on the field and then the impact will come in pre-snap. Just being able to run fast doesn't make you a good receiver, that is obvious. Teams won't fear a terrible speed receiver that can't catch a deep ball. How many DBs **** their pants when Randy Moss (4.25 guy btw) was going deep on em? How many DCoords see they're facing Moss and gameplan pre-snap around not getting destroyed by a Moss deep ball?

Yes it is about balance. Michael Irvin put up the numbers as the primary target, but having a speed guy on the opposite side helped open the field up for him to do work. Amari (or Gallup) can benefit similar to how Irvin did. Zeke as well.

I don't think you understand the scope of the speed if you're making random claims like "that's only about .07 seconds faster". It's more like an extra yard of separation on a Go route. That is a big deal.

You can't just plug in a trash receiver with speed into the roster. They barely get any playtime because there's no trust. Cowboys have been trying to plug this role in with UDFAs and it is an absolute waste of time.

It's about building a team that compliments each other. 1st rounder should lean more towards BPA than it does need. There's a decent chance that BPA at 17 or in a trade down scenario will be a speed WR. Dak has shown an improved deep ball to make use of the skillset as well.


Main Argument is ---> Having 1 Michael Irvin and 1 quality speed receiver on the opposite side is better than having 2 Michael Irvins. (Or 2 Dez Bryants)

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I'd much rather have 2 Michael Irvins, 2 Deandre Hopkins, 2 Michael Thomas', etc... than have 1 one them and a speed WR on the other side.

 

[Macnalty]

Yeah.. There is just so many quality receivers in this draft and we're kind of locked into Cooper and Gallup for awhile most likely.

I don't think Ruggs could ever validate the investment but that speed and the matchups he would get could be a heck of a weapon for us.

Do you think Ruggs has the potential to be a true #1 WR?

Also, was the Louisville offensive tackle on the board?


I struggle with evaluating D Ends who have that Joey Bosa look to them coming out of college. The athleticism just isn't that great so i'm not great at evaluating how that will translate with guys like them.

To me Taco, Greg Ellis, and Joey Bosa all kind of look the same and you never know which one you will get when you draft a Espenesa or Matos type.

If we do not draft him I know that the eagles would run to the podium with his name and be a nightmare for 7 years

 

[Future]

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I'd much rather have 2 Michael Irvins, 2 Deandre Hopkins, 2 Michael Thomas', etc... than have 1 one them and a speed WR on the other side.

It's not the 90s. You need speed. Size doesn't really matter at WR anymore.

Offenses who can't get vertical will struggle. We see it all the time...NE, NO, and even Dallas this year all struggled when they couldn't stretch the field. The Texans with Fuller are WAY better. Stretching the field vertically is THE single most important facet of every offense in today's NFL.

 

[CATCH17]

It's not the 90s. You need speed. Size doesn't really matter at WR anymore.

Offenses who can't get vertical will struggle. We see it all the time...NE, NO, and even Dallas this year all struggled when they couldn't stretch the field. The Texans with Fuller are WAY better. Stretching the field vertically is THE single most important facet of every offense in today's NFL.

Yep.

It's a speed game right now... Explosive plays win football games.

When DB's could mug WR's then the bigger guys were better.. Now they aren't allowed to touch them so the quick/shifty/fast guys are at a premium.

 

[beware_d-ware]

Frankly, both kind of guys can win, because the rules have hampered DBs so much. We see Hopkins back guys down every week and Michael Thomas box out smaller corners in the slot.

The fun thing about speed though is how you can use it to dictate coverage. I looked for the link the other day for this thread and can't find it, but there was a Kollmann video discussing some of the more innovative aspects of Andy Reid's offense. One play he had was an explosive Cover 1 beater.

Mecole Hardman runs a low 4.3; he's not Hill fast but he's not far off it either. The play call was for him to essentially run a very long slant route towards the FS deep in the middle. Few slot corners in the league can hang with Hardman in a footrace, so he has separation there. Then, the FS has to decide if he is going to carry Hardman deep. If he doesn't, Hardman is open for a potential touchdown. If he does, Reid knows he's taken out safety help, and he can use Hill and Kelce underneath against one-on-ones for easy completions.

On a side note, the reason I remember that part of the video so clearly isn't because "speed kills", it's because it made me realize how far ahead Andy Reid is compared to your average coach. I mean, we had a solid 500 passing attempts in 2018 under Scott Linehan, and if he ever called a slot dagger towards the FS, I missed it. He'd rather out-execute the defense on a triple curl route. And against our defense? We basically only play Cover 3 or Cover 1, so if I'm Mahomes, all I have to do is motion my RB out of the backfield before the snap. If a linebacker or Jeff Heath follows him in man, I already know I've got them dead. I just need the blocking to hold up. Andy Reid is offensive Bill Belichick.

And on a longer side note, if you want a lazy-coach example of what a dangerous vertical receiver can do though, look at Scott Linehan sending Dez up the sideline 200 times a game from 2014 until defenses no longer respected him. Romo and prime Dez could destroy CBs one on one, so Bryant would be double-teamed by a safety almost every snap. Taking that safety out of the box gave us a numbers advantage when we wanted to run the ball with Murray, and it opened up high-percentage throws for all the other receivers underneath. And when defenses decided to test Dez and leave him open, Romo made them pay. "Dez caught it" in 2014? Romo bombed it downfield on 4th and 1 because it was one of the few times all game that Dez was single-covered, and it damn near worked.

Anyway, back to the thread, that's why I'm so high on Ruggs. Speed receivers are the polar opposite type of athlete from the fat NTs all the fans crave, but they can function a similar type of way on offense. They can basically give themselves up on the play and run a wind sprint, and if their threat of burning DBs deep is credible, they can eat up a double-team in coverage.

And the league's smartest coaches are using 2 or 3 Ruggses to just screw with defenses like putty and dictate whatever they want to them. When Reid sends three sub-4.4 WRs and Travis Kelce on long routes, you can't double-cover them all, and you can't run with them one on one. The Ravens have one of those sub-4.4 guys lining up under center, so when you bail deep on the other guys' vertical routes, Lamar Jackson will smoke your linebacker who can't run with him and have a free 10 yard carry.

Speed kills. Ruggs has it in spades, and he's actually good at playing football too. I think he's a DeSean Jackson, Hill-ish 1,000 yard receiver on his own in any functional offense, and even if your OC is Scott Linehan, he will make your entire offense better. There's no chance he fails IMO outside of injury. He should be a top-15 lock.

 

[CATCH17]

And the league's smartest coaches are using 2 or 3 Ruggses to just screw with defenses like putty and dictate whatever they want to them. When Reid sends three sub-4.4 WRs and Travis Kelce on long routes, you can't double-cover them all, and you can't run with them one on one. The Ravens have one of those sub-4.4 guys lining up under center, so when you bail deep on the other guys' vertical routes, Lamar Jackson will smoke your linebacker who can't run with him and have a free 10 yard carry.

Speed kills. Ruggs has it in spades, and he's actually good at playing football too. I think he's a DeSean Jackson, Hill-ish 1,000 yard receiver on his own in any functional offense, and even if your OC is Scott Linehan, he will make your entire offense better. There's no chance he fails IMO outside of injury. He should be a top-15 lock.

Yep.. I just can't help but think how much a guy like Ruggs would improve everyone on the field just by his ability to stretch out the defense.

Teams can box us up with players like Witten on the field..

Put Ruggs on the field and have him run clear outs all game or drag him across the field.. He's going to create space for everyone else and if they ignore him then he will torch defenses.

I want defense but if I have to choose someone like a tier 2 corner, or Safety then give me Ruggs.

I'll take Chaisson > Ruggs though.

 

[cnuball21]

It's not the 90s. You need speed. Size doesn't really matter at WR anymore.

Offenses who can't get vertical will struggle. We see it all the time...NE, NO, and even Dallas this year all struggled when they couldn't stretch the field. The Texans with Fuller are WAY better. Stretching the field vertically is THE single most important facet of every offense in today's NFL.

Sure, but you don’t have to be a 4.3 players to be a great TE. Bigger guys like those listed caught a ton of balls and made/make a great living not being blazers.

 

[Future]

Sure, but you don’t have to be a 4.3 players to be a great TE. Bigger guys like those listed caught a ton of balls and made/make a great living not being blazers.

TEs are only effective when they are faster than linebackers.

You can be a good WR and not be fast. You can't have a good passing offense without speed.

 

[CATCH17]

TEs are only effective when they are faster than linebackers.

You can be a good WR and not be fast. You can't have a good passing offense without speed.

It's gotten to the point that I will take 3 fast WR's that run routes well and get to the spots they are supposed to be in over the #1 Michael Thomas, Hopkins, Julio, Devante Adams types.

I loved our WR's last year when they were all on cheap deals but Amari getting a ton of money kinda sways me in the other direction of wanting to get cheap again there.

I do think Amari does have a rare skill set but rumblings about him being a selfish player and unraveling when the chips are down make me reluctant to pay him like Michael Thomas.

Especially when the team has came out and said they pulled him in the Eagles game and wished they had got Cobb in sooner.

High end elite #1 receivers are clearly a luxury if you look at Superbowl teams in the last 10-15 years.. Just like RB's.

 

[Jake0]

Sure, but you don’t have to be a 4.3 players to be a great TE. Bigger guys like those listed caught a ton of balls and made/make a great living not being blazers.

Good TE that can both block well and be a good receiver are what you are going for, nothing surprising there.
Definitely don't want to keep burning 2nd round picks trying to find a 2nd one when you already have a prime Witten on your team though. That is a waste of a premium draft pick with a minimal usage player.

OLine comes first, but once you have that.... skill positions template should be something a little like -
1 elite #1 all around WR.
1 quality speed receiver that has versatility
1 great route running chain mover slot WR
1 TE that can both block and catch
1 RB that can abuse teams for trying to use lineups that are pass defense heavy. Someone like Derrick Henry is ideal I'd say. Zeke is great too.

Every spot doesn't have to be a 4.3 blazer. You definitely at least need 1. Having multiple isn't bad and gives coaches more options.

 

[Future]

It's gotten to the point that I will take 3 fast WR's that run routes well and get to the spots they are supposed to be in over the #1 Michael Thomas, Hopkins, Julio, Devante Adams types.

I loved our WR's last year when they were all on cheap deals but Amari getting a ton of money kinda sways me in the other direction of wanting to get cheap again there.

I do think Amari does have a rare skill set but rumblings about him being a selfish player and unraveling when the chips are down make me reluctant to pay him like Michael Thomas.

Especially when the team has came out and said they pulled him in the Eagles game and wished they had got Cobb in sooner.

High end elite #1 receivers are clearly a luxury if you look at Superbowl teams in the last 10-15 years.. Just like RB's.

Agreed to some extent, but having a guy who wins his matchup every time makes those 3 guys more effective. The Saints offense was at its best when Graham and Colston would win at the LOS so that Henderson and whoever could just run fast. The #1 doesn't need to be big, but they have to command attention every play.

Amari makes a guy like Ruggs valuable, because defenses can't win picking one of them. Ruggs isn't as effective on, say, the Commanders.

Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce are both high-end, elite receivers. As was Gronk. Those guys have to be doubled every single play. The Pats are a bit of an anomaly b/c they used their TE as WR1, but they very much played off of him in the passing game.

 

[CATCH17]

Agreed to some extent, but having a guy who wins his matchup every time makes those 3 guys more effective. The Saints offense was at its best when Graham and Colston would win at the LOS so that Henderson and whoever could just run fast. The #1 doesn't need to be big, but they have to command attention every play.

Amari makes a guy like Ruggs valuable, because defenses can't win picking one of them. Ruggs isn't as effective on, say, the Commanders.

Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce are both high-end, elite receivers. As was Gronk. Those guys have to be doubled every single play. The Pats are a bit of an anomaly b/c they used their TE as WR1, but they very much played off of him in the passing game.

Yeah Ruggs in this offense would present a ton of problems for defenses. The matchups he would get or the matchups he could get for other receivers are almost endless.

I hope our 1st pick is Brown, Kinlaw, or Chaisson but after those guys I think he is top of my list as of now.

 

[cnuball21]

TEs are only effective when they are faster than linebackers.

You can be a good WR and not be fast. You can't have a good passing offense without speed.

whoops...my typo, meant to say WR.

 

[cnuball21]

Yeah Ruggs in this offense would present a ton of problems for defenses. The matchups he would get or the matchups he could get for other receivers are almost endless.

I hope our 1st pick is Brown, Kinlaw, or Chaisson but after those guys I think he is top of my list as of now.

I’m fine with the concept, and can buy into adding a speed threat to the O to help open things up but I have zero desire using the pick in the 1st. I’d consider it in the 2nd, but would be much more comfortable in the 3rd and on. A guy like Darius Slayton who could fly coming out last year but wasn’t polished went mid rounds last year.

 

[DanA]

Happy to take Ruggs in the following scenario
1. Cobb isn’t re-signed or Amari is franchised
2. We sign a DT and CB in FA

 

[unionjack8]

I'm on for a WR if they let cooper walk...

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I'm on for a WR if they let cooper walk...

Would like to see Cee Dee Lamb in a Cowboys uniform; just seems right.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

So many quality prospects at WR coming out this year.

I’ve been watching a lot of Tee Higgins lately. He fits the mold of what the Cowboys have traditionally like at the position: tall, angular, straight-line guys.

That said, I don’t know what McCarthy and company will be looking for at the position.

Higgins is surprisingly a tough, hard-nosed player whereas you may think he’s a finesse guy when first looking at him.

In this draft I see him taken somewhere late in the 1st or second round.

 

[CATCH17]

So many quality prospects at WR coming out this year.

I’ve been watching a lot of Tee Higgins lately. He fits the mold of what the Cowboys have traditionally like at the position: tall, angular, straight-line guys.

That said, I don’t know what McCarthy and company will be looking for at the position.

Higgins is surprisingly a tough, hard-nosed player whereas you may think he’s a finesse guy when first looking at him.

In this draft I see him taken somewhere late in the 1st or second round.

I almost wonder if Tee Higgins is another Michael Thomas that is right under our nose but is getting overlooked because he's a bigger WR.

 

[Miller]

It's not the 90s. You need speed. Size doesn't really matter at WR anymore.

Offenses who can't get vertical will struggle. We see it all the time...NE, NO, and even Dallas this year all struggled when they couldn't stretch the field. The Texans with Fuller are WAY better. Stretching the field vertically is THE single most important facet of every offense in today's NFL.

Yup! We have discussed this in the Reagor thread but the SB teams both had smaller, speedy WRs. There was a decade where the big, tall guys were the thing but now they are getting guys in space and doing different things.

On another note, I'd love a WR in the first but found this interesting