How would you feel about Henry Ruggs at 17?

cnuball21

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Well they do get hurt a lot which doesn't help. Tyreek and Fuller both were hurt this year and also Mahomes was hurt some bringing down Tyreek's numbers. Just look at how much better Deshaun Watson's numbers are when Fuller plays compared to when he's out over the past few seasons. I'd say Fuller is worth a late 1st for that no problem.

Julio Jones counts as a speed receiver because he's a 4.3 guy. Julio Jones is just a freak though, so yeah, the Megatrons and Julio's of the world are blue chip prospects that are worth top 5 picks.

Chark, McLaurin and DK Metcalf had great years and are on the rise. They may be in that top 15 soon enough.

It's complimentary. You need to pay up for the speed guy but he opens up the offense for everyone else. Emmitt & Irvin got all the numbers and accolades but Harper/Martin/Rocket Ismael or w/e were there to open things up for them. It's an important piece. You don't just line up 4 possession receivers, too obvious and easy to defend. It's about stretching the field. They are important enough to spend a decently high draft pick on. Should've taken Chark instead of Connor for that 2nd rounder but oh well.

Speed guys are usually smaller, which leads to durability issues.

Hill is the only legit, speed WR I can think of that’s actually a #1 in the entire NFL.

I love guys like Fuller...but he’s the definition of a compliment player to a legit #1 in Hopkins. They needed someone way worse than we did to take attention away from him.

Gallup is going into year 3, in which WRs are supposed to click, coming off a 1K yard season.

This why the thought of taking a WR at 17 makes me sick.
 

Jake0

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Speed guys are usually smaller, which leads to durability issues.

Hill is the only legit, speed WR I can think of that’s actually a #1 in the entire NFL.

I love guys like Fuller...but he’s the definition of a compliment player to a legit #1 in Hopkins. They needed someone way worse than we did to take attention away from him.

Gallup is going into year 3, in which WRs are supposed to click, coming off a 1K yard season.

This why the thought of taking a WR at 17 makes me sick.

Possession receivers will always be more consistent throughout a season, but you still need a guy that can catch bombs and have games where he explodes for 150-200+ yards and wins a game. D Coords see the threat and gameplan around that not happening. The threat is important.

17 for a 1 trick speed receiver is an overpay and not ideal. Just need to properly scout & evaluate Ruggs to see if he is a complete receiver that can be Tyreek Hill for a team. Gallup + Ruggs as your 1/2 would probably be fine or Gallup + Any speed receiver. Amari + Ruggs + Gallup would probably be ok but likely can't pay big money to Gallup once his rookie deal is up and have to replace him with some youth.

The Cowboys have had multiple chances to address the need with 2nd rounders in the past and failed unfortunately. 2nd round seems like a good spot for em recently.

Chark instead of Connor Williams, DK Metcalf/McLauren/Parris Campbell/Andy Isabella instead of Trysten Hill. Connor/Hill still have some time to prove themselves, but it's definitely not looking good right now.
 

cnuball21

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Possession receivers will always be more consistent throughout a season, but you still need a guy that can catch bombs and have games where he explodes for 150-200+ yards and wins a game. D Coords see the threat and gameplan around that not happening. The threat is important.

17 for a 1 trick speed receiver is an overpay and not ideal. Just need to properly scout & evaluate Ruggs to see if he is a complete receiver that can be Tyreek Hill for a team. Gallup + Ruggs as your 1/2 would probably be fine or Gallup + Any speed receiver. Amari + Ruggs + Gallup would probably be ok but likely can't pay big money to Gallup once his rookie deal is up and have to replace him with some youth.

The Cowboys have had multiple chances to address the need with 2nd rounders in the past and failed unfortunately. 2nd round seems like a good spot for em recently.

Chark instead of Connor Williams, DK Metcalf/McLauren/Parris Campbell/Andy Isabella instead of Trysten Hill. Connor/Hill still have some time to prove themselves, but it's definitely not looking good right now.

If we re-sign Coop and don’t get Cobb back just snag a slot guy.

I agree about last year...such a wiff in such great talent available when we took Hill. I didn’t want a WR in the 2nd, but Metcalf was too good a talent to pass on.
 

beware_d-ware

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Thornhill was the guy there if you follow Will McClay's usual formula, Metcalf was the guy there if you want to do the Jerry push-all-the-chips-to-the-center second round gamble. We went with with neither and did it Rod's way. Definitely frustrating.
 

cnuball21

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Thornhill was the guy there if you follow Will McClay's usual formula, Metcalf was the guy there if you want to do the Jerry push-all-the-chips-to-the-center second round gamble. We went with with neither and did it Rod's way. Definitely frustrating.

And both were clearly higher rated players in just about every source out there. Maddening.
 

SSoup

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Gallup is going into year 3, in which WRs are supposed to click, coming off a 1K yard season.

This why the thought of taking a WR at 17 makes me sick.
It really depends what our offense looks like. If we make up our minds to really feature the #3 WR, a late 1st rounder isn't too high a resource to spend there.

If you flip through the stat sheets on McCarthy's Packers teams during his time there, I noticed something: if the cupboard was bare at TE, he was fine treating them as an afterthought instead of force-feeding them as many targets as superior WR weapons.

When we hired McCarthy, there was a lot of chatter on the board about how he likes to feature the TE so we better go get a good one. But that's not exactly the case when you look at his time in Green Bay.

For years in Dallas, we featured a TE so much that he was more prominent than our #2 WR. McCarthy basically never did that ever (except the year he was fired). And when our TE wasn't featured more than the #2, he was usually more prominent than--or at the very least, at least roughly equal to--our 3rd WR. That's VERY rare in McCarthy's offenses in Green Bay. They usually featured a trio of WRs and the TE was an afterthought after them. We might have benefited from that mindset in 2019 if we hadn't been so locked-in on force-feeding Witten that we gave our broken-down old TE the same number of targets as we gave a much better weapon in our #3 WR.

Here's a season-by-season look at the usage of TEs in McCarthy's passing game during his time in Green Bay...

2006 - The Packers' top TE, Bubba Franks, was their 5th leading receiver with only 232 yards receiving on 25 catches with zero TD. 3 WRs and a RB ranked ahead of him as a receiving weapon.

2007 - Top TE Donald Lee was their 4th leading receiver with 575 yards (on 48 catches with 6 TD), behind a strong trio of WRs who were each given starting WR workloads. The receivers ahead of him got 122 targets, 84 targets, and 80 targets. Lee was targeted only 63 times. So their 3rd WR got a workload equivalent to a starting #2 WR, while the top TE was an appreciable rung lower on the ladder.

2008 - TE Donald Lee was again their 4th leading receiver behind 3 WR, this time with only 303 yards. Backup TEs chipped in 162 and 74 yards. Bad year for the TE position in that offense. Worth mentioning that the team added Jordy Nelson to the mix despite already being 3-deep at WR. So they now had 4 legit WR in Jennings, Driver, James Jones, and Nelson. Jennings and Driver got 140 and 116 targets. That's a lot. Nelson was targeted 54 times. TE Lee was targeted only 50 times.

2009 - For the first time in McCarthy's tenure, the TE becomes showcased enough to rank third in receiving yards. TE Jermichael Finley got 676 yards and 5 TDs on 72 targets and 55 catches. The two WR behind him, Jordy Nelson and James Jones, were both good, so they weren't hurting for weapons at WR. They just decided to feature the TE more. TE Donald Lee chipped in 260 yards and was targeted 54 times (more than Jordy Nelson and almost as much as James Jones, the #3 WR) himself. Lot of TE usage this year despite being so stacked at WR.

2010 - This was their Super Bowl winning season (though not a division-winning one -- probably thanks to losing Finley). TE Jermichael Finley only played 5 games this year, with 303 yards, and he *still* got more receiving yards than their next TE who played 13 games. Yikes, that's bad. So clearly the TE position went down the crapper after Finley. Their leading TEs finished behind 4 WRs and a RB in receiving yardage. Of course, with 4 starting-caliber WRs, they were able to weather the storm.

2011 - Jermichael Finley is plays 16 games, and he is the 3rd leading receiver behind the top two wideouts. 767 yards on a whopping 92 targets. He averaged 13.9 yards per catch, which is great for a TE. Real showcase season for Finley. (Though interesting that, at this high-water mark, he's still not more prominent in their offense than their #2 WR. McCarthy's offenses just didn't go there like some offenses with weapons at TE do.) Finished ahead of James Jones and Donald Driver in targets, catches, yards, and TDs. Worth mentioning that Randall Cobb was also in the fold this year as a rookie, with 31 targets and 375 yards despite obviously never starting a game and being at the bottom of the depth chart. They were legitimately 5-deep at WR this season. So many weapons at WR and one really good one at TE. Their backup TEs were basically non-existent, managing single-digit catches and less than a hundred yards, but that's understandable when you have 5 great WRs. Not surprisingly, with all those weapons, this was a banner year for their QBs. Rodgers threw 4600 yards, 45 TDs and only 6 INT. 9.2 yards per attempt. BONKERS. A passer rating of 122.5. And would you believe their backup QB had an even higher rating with 124.8? Matt Flynn threw for 500 yards and 6 TDs against 2 INT, given only one start. He threw 10 yards per attempt. Small sample size, but it earned him the contract he fetched on the open market. This is why teams usually pay handsomely to keep their QB from exploring the market, because the market is crazy. The open market will almost always pay your QB more than you would have, even if your QB is a product of your system and only really that useful to your team.

2012 - Finley is back to being their 4th leading receiver behind 3 WRs with 667 yards and only 2 TDs. No 1000 yard receivers on the team this year. Greg Jennings missed half the year and only started 5 games. Jordy Nelson dealt with some injuries too. So James Jones, normally 3 or 4, was elevated. But it was Cobb, previously their 5th WR, rocketing up the stat sheet to lead the team with 104 targets. Backup TEs are still largely invisible, with Tom Crabtree managing only 8 catches as the 2nd leading TE -- but he made the most of it with 203 yards (a 72 yard TE will really boost that yards per catch -- 25 yards per catch) and 3 TDs. That's a lot of production for only 8 catches (12 targets).

2013 - Another disaster season for the TE position as Finley again only plays 5 games and manages 300 yards. This time, though, the other TE at least managed to out-produce him with 313 yards. Still not good. Randall Cobb missed most of the season with injuries too. And they were without Donald Driver by now. Which led to Jarret Boykin (who?) being their 3rd leading receiver, coming out of nowhere to get 83 targets for 681 yards. Their top 4 receiving yardage leaders were WRs, including Cobb, who only started 4 games and spent the season injured. Their backup TE was their 5th leading receiver.

2014 - Finley's gone. Quarless and Rodgers are their top TEs this year. They finish 5th and 6th on the team in receiving yards behind a strong WR trio (now featuring Davanta Adams -- they just don't stop adding good WRs even when they already had good ones) and a RB. Very top-heavy passing attack. Nelson and Cobb at the top got 151 and 127 targets.

2015 - TE Richard Rodgers was their 3rd leading receiver behind two WRs with only 510 yards. He averaged less than 9 yards per catch, so he really was a generic warm body most of the time. His 8 TDs suggests he was valuable in that part of the field even if he was mediocre elsewhere. If Jordy Nelson hadn't missed the season, I imagine the TE position would've remained an afterthought like it was the previous season. Nobody went over 1000 yards for them. Without Nelson to suck up attention, Cobb went from 1200 yards and double-digit TDs last year to 829 yards and 6 TD.

2016 - New TE Jared Cook is their 4th leading receiver with only 377 yards. A strong trio of WRs leads the way again with Nelson, Adams, and Cobb getting 152, 121, and 84 targets. TE Cook got only 51 targets and 1 TD, but his 12.6 yards per catch is pretty fine. The other TE, Rodgers, was their 6th leading receiver with 271 yards. A ho-hum season for the TEs while the WR trio dominated (although Cobb missed time with injuries).

2017 - Aaron Rodgers only started 7 games, so Brett Hundley was their main QB this season. For what it's worth. TE Martellus Bennett, who only played 7 games, was their leading TE. He was their 6th leading receiver with 233 yards. TE Lance Kendricks was their 7th leading receiver with 203 yards. Richard Rodgers chipped in another 160 as a backup. Bad year for tight ends and for their passing game as a whole. No 1000 yard receivers despite Adams, Cobb and Nelson all staying healthy enough to play 14 or 15 games. To be fair, the wheels are probably falling off Nelson by this point whether he suits up or not. Adams and Cobb are both better weapons than him by now, though Nelson is probably still more valuable than Cobb in the redzone.

2018 - McCarthy gets fired during the season this year. TE Jimmy Graham is technically their 2nd leading receiver in yardage, which sounds great. But he did it with only 636 yards. Which is not great. They were very invested in giving him chances though, as they forced 89 targets his way. The 2nd most targets on the entire offense. Davanta Adams was targeted 169 times! That's bananas. Randall Cobb played 9 games but only started 6 -- he was hurt. WR Marquez Valdes-Scantling was their 3rd leading receiver with 581 yards on 73 targets.
 

CATCH17

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Speed guys are usually smaller, which leads to durability issues.

Hill is the only legit, speed WR I can think of that’s actually a #1 in the entire NFL.

I love guys like Fuller...but he’s the definition of a compliment player to a legit #1 in Hopkins. They needed someone way worse than we did to take attention away from him.

Gallup is going into year 3, in which WRs are supposed to click, coming off a 1K yard season.

This why the thought of taking a WR at 17 makes me sick.

We can’t fully draft on need.

I want defense too. I much prefer it over offense. I just don’t pass on a better player for a none difference maker to plug a hole.

The thing I like about a WR like this is if we can get teams focusing on Zeke again then a WR like Ruggs is going to get some very favorable matchups and if he doesn’t get the matchup then Cooper or Gallup will.

We desperately need more explosive plays on offense as well.
 

cnuball21

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We can’t fully draft on need.

I want defense too. I much prefer it over offense. I just don’t pass on a better player for a none difference maker to plug a hole.

The thing I like about a WR like this is if we can get teams focusing on Zeke again then a WR like Ruggs is going to get some very favorable matchups and if he doesn’t get the matchup then Cooper or Gallup will.

We desperately need more explosive plays on offense as well.

I'm 100% with you on not drafting need over a player that is clearly a better talent on offense.

IMO - you don't draft a WR in the 1st round unless he you think he can be a legit #1 WR. Jeudy/Lamb are the only #1s in the draft for me. Ruggs would be a great #2, but I really believe we already have one in Gallup. He's not as explosive, but he's a great route runner and has a better catch radius and is a better red zone target.
 

Daygoboy6191

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I'm 100% with you on not drafting need over a player that is clearly a better talent on offense.

IMO - you don't draft a WR in the 1st round unless he you think he can be a legit #1 WR. Jeudy/Lamb are the only #1s in the draft for me. Ruggs would be a great #2, but I really believe we already have one in Gallup. He's not as explosive, but he's a great route runner and has a better catch radius and is a better red zone target.

I don't see the need to take Ruggs at 17 when we can get a Hamler, Aiyuk, KJ Hill, Mims or someone like that in the second or third round.
 

cnuball21

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I don't see the need to take Ruggs at 17 when we can get a Hamler, Aiyuk, KJ Hill, Mims or someone like that in the second or third round.

ding ding ding

The draft is loaded at WR. I love Hill as a slot for us...and I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s available in the 4th round.
 

mathew1184

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I like Ruggs, but I do wonder if he is going to be able to beat some of the better press corners in the league.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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There’s no way I’d spend the 17th pick on Ruggs. There are a ton of similar sized guys with speed in the draft.

I don’t know if he has Ruggs speed, but I like SMU’s James Proche more in terms of a pure receiver. He reminds me a bit of Antonio Brown.

 

CATCH17

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Speed guys are usually smaller, which leads to durability issues.

Hill is the only legit, speed WR I can think of that’s actually a #1 in the entire NFL.

I love guys like Fuller...but he’s the definition of a compliment player to a legit #1 in Hopkins. They needed someone way worse than we did to take attention away from him.

Gallup is going into year 3, in which WRs are supposed to click, coming off a 1K yard season.

This why the thought of taking a WR at 17 makes me sick.

This is probably a unpopular opinion but I’m starting to think the #1 WR is overrated in that you’re better off having a group of good receivers that create problems and know where to be and how to get open.

Tyreek Hill is a #1 but their team speed at WR is pretty crazy too.

The tippity top WRs just don’t win championships that often anymore. I can’t remember the last guy besides Tyreek Hill who did.
 

morasp

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Thornhill was the guy there if you follow Will McClay's usual formula, Metcalf was the guy there if you want to do the Jerry push-all-the-chips-to-the-center second round gamble. We went with with neither and did it Rod's way. Definitely frustrating.
Either of those players would have been better. Thornhill was the ballhawk and I think he had three interceptions with the Chiefs before he got hurt. I was really hoping they might take Zach Allen also. He was starting and making plays until he got hurt.
 

Floatyworm

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What do you see his overall potential as? Potentially a #1? Tyreek Hill type?

I think if all of the players we like are off the board then he is on my short list of players I would draft.

If we keep Cooper and we get back to running the ball like we used to then the matchups Ruggs would get with the speed he has would put a huge amount of pressure on defenses to defend.

I'm sure Jeudy and Lamb will be long gone by 17.

I question how much of an impact the DE's Espenesa Iowa and the Penn State guy will have at the next level.

I don't think Dallas would take Ruggs. I think they'll let Byron walk and take a corner over a lot of these other guys anyways.

I think I'd rather have Pittman in the 2nd...if we are gonna draft a WR high.....:popcorn:
 

CATCH17

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I think I'd rather have Pittman in the 2nd...if we are gonna draft a WR high.....:popcorn:

I like Pittman a lot.

So many good WRs it’s too tough to choose.

That KJ Hamler guy could be a good slot...He’s small but man does he have some quickness and agility.

 

Daygoboy6191

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Man all these WR I want nothing to do with Coopers contract and we can trade him for some draft capital and use his money to rebuild this roster it would be great!!
 

LatinMind

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What do you see his overall potential as? Potentially a #1? Tyreek Hill type?

I think if all of the players we like are off the board then he is on my short list of players I would draft.

If we keep Cooper and we get back to running the ball like we used to then the matchups Ruggs would get with the speed he has would put a huge amount of pressure on defenses to defend.

I'm sure Jeudy and Lamb will be long gone by 17.

I question how much of an impact the DE's Espenesa Iowa and the Penn State guy will have at the next level.

I don't think Dallas would take Ruggs. I think they'll let Byron walk and take a corner over a lot of these other guys anyways.

If it was a guarantee they would get him at 17 or trade up to get him I would let cooper walk. I would feel comfortable with Gallup, riggs, Cobb, Devin Smith and another rookie later in the draft. With an offense that gets players open by design instead of having the try to win every route would make all the difference in the world.
 
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