I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[CCBoy]

Ah, so you really don't think Dez was falling either. Clears things up.

I see where this trail went...

 

[percyhoward]

Did you even watch the video on the page? Blandino even says that the only act that can be performed while falling is to gather themselves and then lunge.

Of course I watched it, and he contradicted what he said the day before. You don't really explain it, you just say he "butchered" it. Somebody else said, "He was nervous." And yet, the idea of the reach being an act common to the game is consistent with his previous explanations of similar plays.

"Watch what Julius does. He's gonna get control, take two steps...and now reach for the goal line. He has established himself as a runner."

There's nothing about "gathering and lunging" there. Did he "butcher" it then also? Blandino was looking for control, two feet down, and an act common to the game. In that order. I know that because I went and found out. That's the value of research over speculation, and informed opinion over the other kind.

The NFL was still saying six days later that reaching for the goal line was an act common to the game. Did they "butcher" it too? Were they still "nervous" after six days?

But that is clear in the case play, which you continue to ignore.

We already know that the case book listed a lunge as an act common to the game prior to 2015. Are you saying there is a case play that said a reach was NOT an act common to the game prior to 2015?

 

[percyhoward]

Ah, so you really don't think Dez was falling either. Clears things up.

Yes, you can see Dez accelerate past Shields, who really was just falling.

Dez wasn't just falling, Shields was.

 

[CCBoy]

Dez wasn't just falling, Shields was.

Some posters just don't want to be defined by a weight class:

 

[BlindFaith]

Of course I watched it, and he contradicted what he said the day before. You don't really explain it, you just say he "butchered" it. Somebody else said, "He was nervous." And yet, the idea of the reach being an act common to the game is consistent with his previous explanations of similar plays.

"Watch what Julius does. He's gonna get control, take two steps...and now reach for the goal line. He has established himself as a runner."

There's nothing about "gathering and lunging" there. Did he "butcher" it then also? Blandino was looking for control, two feet down, and an act common to the game. In that order. I know that because I went and found out. That's the value of research over speculation, and informed opinion over the other kind.

The NFL was still saying six days later that reaching for the goal line was an act common to the game. Did they "butcher" it too? Were they still "nervous" after six days?


We already know that the case book listed a lunge as an act common to the game prior to 2015. Are you saying there is a case play that said a reach was NOT an act common to the game prior to 2015?

Case play clearly says the lunge is not the act that completed the catch. Regaining balance did.

Show me in the rules where it says that as a player is going to the ground that ALL they need to do is reach, take a step or lunge.

Again, what do you think the going to the ground part of the rule is for? Just for player's who don't move a muscle? Because virtually everything else is an act common to the game. Please answer.

 

[BlindFaith]

Dez wasn't just falling, Shields was.

What does Shields have to do with it? Going to the ground with or without contacting another player.

 

[BlindFaith]

Dez wasn't just falling, Shields was.

Oh, and does this mean that you do agree that he was falling? Hard to keep up since you seem to agree that he wasnt in one instance and then back track later.

 

[BlindFaith]

Some posters just don't want to be defined by a weight class:

Ok Yoda.

 

[CCBoy]

Ok Yoda.

Ever go one on one with Jeff Smith in a karate match?

 

[percyhoward]

Oh, and does this mean that you do agree that he was falling? Hard to keep up since you seem to agree that he wasnt in one instance and then back track later.

What does Shields have to do with it? Going to the ground with or without contacting another player.

Wow.

I said you could see Dez accelerating past Shields, which shows you that Dez lunged when he was falling, as opposed to just falling, like Shields was.

 

[percyhoward]

Case play clearly says the lunge is not the act that completed the catch. Regaining balance did.

I don't know what case play you're talking about, but the 2014 play that most resembles Dez's play is A.R. 15.95, and it doesn't have one word about regaining balance. Here it is in its entirety:

2014
A.R. 15.95
Act common to game
Third-&-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his 2nd foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.​

It does not say the act of lunging didn't complete the process of the catch. It says the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch, which it isn't. It's the act that shows that the player has satisfied the time requirement after control and two feet. Clearly the "act of lunging" is the "act common to the game" to which the heading refers. There is nothing about the act of "regaining balance." Those words are 100% yours, my friend.

Show me in the rules where it says that as a player is going to the ground that ALL they need to do is reach, take a step or lunge.

Acts common to the game weren't ALL spelled out in the rules in 2014, and still aren't. Reaching for the goal line and lunging were both acts common to the game in 2014, and you can follow those links to videos in which Blandino says so. "Taking additional steps" was added in 2016, although there's no reason to assume that wasn't a football move in 2014. An act common to the game completed the catch process in 2014. A player who had completed the catch process didn't have to control the ball when he hit the ground in 2014. That's why Blandino had to say he looked for an act common to the game here, and here, and here.

Again, what do you think the going to the ground part of the rule is for?

It's for players who go to the ground in the process of catching a pass, as opposed to players who complete the catch process before they go to the ground, as Dez did, and as Thomas did.

Just for player's who don't move a muscle? Because virtually everything else is an act common to the game. Please answer.

The best tutorial on "going to the ground" and how it was treated prior to 2015 can be found here.

Blandino: "The process of the catch is a three-part process: control, two feet down, and then have the ball long enough to perform an act common to the game. If you can perform all three parts in that order, you have a catch. If not, and you're going to the ground, you must control the ball when you hit the ground.
Watch what happens when Calvin hits the ground. The ball comes loose. He did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line, so this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass."

Note that he did not say, "He wasn't upright." He didn't say, "A reach doesn't trump going to the ground." If those things were true, then that's all he had to say. Just like in the interview the day of the overturn. Did he butcher it? Was he nervous?

How do you explain this?

 

[BlindFaith]

Ever go one on one with Jeff Smith in a karate match?

No. Why? Do you guys break boards together?

 

[BlindFaith]

I don't know what case play you're talking about, but the 2014 play that most resembles Dez's play is A.R. 15.95, and it doesn't have one word about regaining balance. Here it is in its entirety:

2014
A.R. 15.95
Act common to game
Third-&-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his 2nd foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.​

It does not say the act of lunging didn't complete the process of the catch. It says the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch, which it isn't. It's the act that shows that the player has satisfied the time requirement after control and two feet. Clearly the "act of lunging" is the "act common to the game" to which the heading refers. There is nothing about the act of "regaining balance." Those words are 100% yours, my friend.


Acts common to the game weren't ALL spelled out in the rules in 2014, and still aren't. Reaching for the goal line and lunging were both acts common to the game in 2014, and you can follow those links to videos in which Blandino says so. "Taking additional steps" was added in 2016, although there's no reason to assume that wasn't a football move in 2014. An act common to the game completed the catch process in 2014. A player who had completed the catch process didn't have to control the ball when he hit the ground in 2014. That's why Blandino had to say he looked for an act common to the game here, and here, and here.


It's for players who go to the ground in the process of catching a pass, as opposed to players who complete the catch process before they go to the ground, as Dez did, and as Thomas did.


The best tutorial on "going to the ground" and how it was treated prior to 2015 can be found here.

Blandino: "The process of the catch is a three-part process: control, two feet down, and then have the ball long enough to perform an act common to the game. If you can perform all three parts in that order, you have a catch. If not, and you're going to the ground, you must control the ball when you hit the ground.
Watch what happens when Calvin hits the ground. The ball comes loose. He did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line, so this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass."

Note that he did not say, "He wasn't upright." He didn't say, "A reach doesn't trump going to the ground." If those things were true, then that's all he had to say. Just like in the interview the day of the overturn. Did he butcher it? Was he nervous?

How do you explain this?

Ask him. Or Stephen Jones. Or the countless others who understand the rule. I'm done.

 

[DogFace]

Thats the smoking gun? lol

He at no point was ever going to the ground. If you can't see that then it's hopeless. How a still photo from this being used to try and support anything is laughable. I mean I literally laughed...out loud.

No buddy. Never said it’s a smoking gun. It’s an example where a player lost his balance and regained it.

Try looking at the Dez catch before the trip. You’ll see he wasn’t going down. Which is kind of why in the first photo(GB play) he’s nearly up right right before the trip, that is barley leaning at all. Then the picture which was shown in the video his chest is parallel to the ground. Which is closer to the ground and therefore closer to falling. Judging what position a persons chest and head is in is a good indication of what kind of balance they are experiencing.

Those are simply two separate views of Dez in balance. In one he’s further off balance. You saying he was further off balance before being tripped is in direct opposition to the definition balance.


The smoking gun is the rule. Control-two feet-time for a football move.

Blandino looked for a football move. Why would he if he didn’t matter. Was he unsure he was going to the ground? Because you say that trumps the 3 step process.

I’d bet at least one on your side of the debate does believe global warming is a hoax. Hint CONSPIRACY!!

 

[BlindFaith]

No buddy. Never said it’s a smoking gun. It’s an example where a player lost his balance and regained it.

Try looking at the Dez catch before the trip. You’ll see he wasn’t going down. Which is kind of why in the first photo(GB play) he’s nearly up right right before the trip, that is barley leaning at all. Then the picture which was shown in the video his chest is parallel to the ground. Which is closer to the ground and therefore closer to falling. Judging what position a persons chest and head is in is a good indication of what kind of balance they are experiencing.

Those are simply two separate views of Dez in balance. In one he’s further off balance. You saying he was further off balance before being tripped is in direct opposition to the definition balance.


The smoking gun is the rule. Control-two feet-time for a football move.

Blandino looked for a football move. Why would he if he didn’t matter. Was he unsure he was going to the ground? Because you say that trumps the 3 step process.

I’d bet at least one on your side of the debate does believe global warming is a hoax. Hint CONSPIRACY!!

I seriously can't debate this any longer if you can't see how dramatically different those two catches are.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I know how the rule will be enforced by the NFL and its the same as it was before.

 

[Aviano90]

This going to the Supreme Court for a ruling yet?

 

[Kevinicus]

I'm just waiting for once from you. This is your standard fallback - just claim you've already said something to cover for the fact you never have. It's laughable how many times you've done that, and here I gave you a chance to make up for it, and you still have to default to this. .

I have said some, but others have said so much more. Everything has been told to you repeatedly and you just don't understand it. It's clear why with your inability to get what I said right. What good would repeating what Percy, Zebra, or many others have said? Would it somehow click because I said it? You don't get what they say, you don't get what I say, you don't get what Blandino says, you don't get what the rule says, you don't get what the case play says. What is the point? You have proven yourself incapable of umderstanding.

 

[DogFace]

I seriously can't debate this any longer if you can't see how dramatically different those two catches are.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I know how the rule will be enforced by the NFL and its the same as it was before.

Of course they’re different. Very. The point is before Dez is tripped is where you claim to already know he’s going to fall. I’m not sure what that’s based on because as you can see in the photo he’s upright.

In the other photo he’s leaning far more than he is in the other catch where you claim to be sure he will fall.

If you were shown both pics at that point(before the trip and when you knew he was falling) in which one would you say he’s more likely to fall? Again, Not based on what you know will happen, but based on their body positions.

This is a tangent you wanted to go on and I’m exploring it with you. It really has very little to do with the rule that only the ref 10 feet from the play knew.
That’s why it was ruled down by contact.

Blandino wouldn’t have said he was looking for a move during his fall if it didn’t matter because he was going to the ground. He said that because it did matter.

 

[DogFace]

Ask him. Or Stephen Jones. Or the countless others who understand the rule. I'm done.

You should be.

That was summed up as well as it possibly good be.

I was waiting for a response. It would be interesting.

Maybe @OmerV will attempt it.

I don’t see how any of that can be reasonably argued against. He gave several examples which contradicted the ruling.

He also pointed out that your “regain balance” was something you added to try to defend the case play being a contradiction to Dez’s catch being ruled incomplete.

 

[Kevinicus]

Case play clearly says the lunge is not the act that completed the catch. Regaining balance did.

Show me in the rules where it says that as a player is going to the ground that ALL they need to do is reach, take a step or lunge.

Again, what do you think the going to the ground part of the rule is for? Just for player's who don't move a muscle? Because virtually everything else is an act common to the game. Please answer.

It is impossible to regain balance when going to the ground. If you regain your balance, then you didn't go to the ground and thus never were going to the ground.

Unless you are admitting that to really "go to the ground" you must hit the ground, and thus if you complete the catch process before hitting the ground, then you have done so before "going to the ground?"