I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

Kevinicus

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lol - then why did they include that in the scenario? Why not just set up the scenario so that the player goes to the ground regardless of whatever point in the play and whatever the reason? It would have simplified things to say it doesn't matter whether he was going to the ground on his own or not because there would be no judgment needed by the refs.

The only possible reason for including in the scenario that one foot was down, and then it was the contact that caused him to go to the ground would be if the intent was to differentiate it from a player going to the ground on his own. That's a very specific set of circumstances, and it's laughable to assume they would put those specifics into the casebook without there being a reason for it. Why would they even include those specifics if they intended for them to be ignored anyway?

Remember, this is the casebook, and the entire premise of a casebook is to give specific examples with specific circumstances, and provide the correct ruling for those specific examples and circumstances. Accordingly it's ridiculous to say the specifics of the examples set out in the casebook can be ignored. You don't get to pick which parts you like and which you don't - you don't get to alter the example to fit what you want.

So if they didn't include the contact you would then be saying that it only applied in cases where there was no contact. It's simply setting the stage. You're just being silly wanting a 100% example of every possibly imaginable scenario. Stop it.
 

MarcusRock

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You could say that. But the other language in the case play talking about gathering themselves isn't in the rule either. So are the case plays exceptions? And if so, is the exception to include only if they are contacted/forced to the ground? It's all up to interpretation because it's not clearly spelled out in an actual rule.

I think the case plays are just examples to try to show the application of the specific rule in question in different play scenarios, attempting to explain rulings in those scenarios.
 

KJJ

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I agree. I was in a way trying to make a point. Because in the end, if the WR doesn't maintain possession it's an incomplete pass. The going/falling to the ground is what has some confused and others not willing to except the rule. They consider his feet coming down after the catch a step and in the act of going to the ground a 3rd step. Which, as I understand it is all on the back burning when they are going to the ground. The lunge, steps, switching hands, adjusting jock, calling grandma etc....

There’s some who are confused with what exactly going to the ground means but I think a majority of fans have a pretty clear understanding of it but they either refuse to accept it or are in denial over it. There’s pictures that clearly show the ball on the ground but some are still in denial over that. Some won’t even accept the most obvious elements of the play. In my opinion a receiver leaping into the air over a defender and high pointing the football while making a catch is a football move.

Being able to bring the ball in and change hands while reaching for the endzone are all football moves in my book but the rule clearly stats that if a receiver is “going to the ground” they have to survive the ground or it’s an incomple pass. Football moves go out the window if the receiver is going to the ground.
 
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blindzebra

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There’s some who are confused with what exactly going to the ground means but I think a majority of fans have a pretty clear understanding of it but they either refuse to accept it or are in denial over it. There’s pictures that clearly show the ball on the ground but some are still in denial over that. Some won’t even accept the most obvious elements of the play. In my opinion a receiver leaping into the air over a defender and high pointing the football while making a catch is a football move.

Being able to bring the ball in and change hands while reaching for the endzone are all football moves in my book but the rule clearly stats that if a receiver is “going to the ground” they have to survive the ground or it’s an incomple pass. Football moves go out the window if the receiver is going to the ground.
And yet there are case plays that said an act common to the game ended going to the ground. Bravo you just admitted that Dez performed football moves making it a catch.
 

OmerV

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Kev does bring up a good point about this part of the rule, as do you. I'm not certain what the significance is of being contacted while going to the ground.

The case plays all do say that. I did mention it in a post a while back. Seems like they are trying to maybe say what you are implying. If so, then it makes the Dez play even less of a catch, since this regaining balance could only occur if he was knocked to the ground by contact, meaning he otherwise would have not gone to the ground. He was not forced to the ground and he was clearly going to the ground the entire time. That would then even negate the case plays. But since it's not real clear, even though the language is clearly used, to if this is the actual intent, I'm going with they just ignore if there is contact or not. Which then puts the case plays into play.

I could be wrong. Very, very poorly written.

The case book example doesn't talk about being contacted while going to the ground, it talks about the contact being the reason for going to the ground. The difference is between a player who is truly going to the ground while trying to establish possession, and one that is only going to the ground after coming down in control and then being forced to the ground by a tackle. The fact there is an intended distinction between a player going to the ground on his own is the reason Item 1 exists in the rulebook, and that is part of what AR 8.12 is clarifying.
 

blindzebra

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They didn't set up the scenario and circumstances in the case play as they did by accident, and you can't pretend the scenario and circumstances in the case play don't apply because it doesn't suit you. It makes a difference because they are distinguishing between a player who was upright after the first foot came down, and would have remained upright if not for a defender knocking him to the ground, from one who was going to the ground from the moment his first foot came down regardless of contact. The ruling is different in those cases.
Case plays are an example of ONE possible scenario, not the ONLY scenario under the rules.
That is why you have to take an act common to the game, going to the ground case plays and apply rules 8.1.3.c and 3.2.7 to them as well, you know the rules that give other examples of acts common to the game.
 

OmerV

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And yet there are case plays that said an act common to the game ended going to the ground. Bravo you just admitted that Dez performed football moves making it a catch.

This works as long as you cherry pick what parts of the case play to pay attention to and what to ignore.
 

blindzebra

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You could say that. But the other language in the case play talking about gathering themselves isn't in the rule either. So are the case plays exceptions? And if so, is the exception to include only if they are contacted/forced to the ground? It's all up to interpretation because it's not clearly spelled out in an actual rule.
Case plays give one of many possible plays that can happen. They are not all inclusive, they are just examples which is why you have to combine the rule language and the case play to understand all possible applications.

The case plays in question cover acts common to the game and going to the ground, which means the examples under 8.1.3.c and 3.2.7 ALL APPLY TO THE CASE PLAY.
It is not just the gather and lunge nonsense that Blandino pulled out of his butt, that you guys fixate on, it is all football moves.
 

blindzebra

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This works as long as you cherry pick what parts of the case play to pay attention to and what to ignore.
Just because you have no clue how officials read and study rules does not make it cherry picking, but that is your go to when facts don't fit the argument, so I will take that to mean that my point hit home and you can't refute it with anything factual.
 

KJJ

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Nothing ends going to the ground. Going to the ground puts an end to everything else. The rule is clear a receiver has to complete the process if they’re going to the ground.
 

blindzebra

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Lets break this down:

A.R. 15.95 Act common to game—COMPLETE PASS
1. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and
( We get what this means. )
2. then still in control of the ball ( This is the confusing part, a "time" element or what I think they are trying to refer to is some action that kind of stops them from falling or regaining their balance. )
3. he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed. ( According to the wording of the ruling, the lunge is NOT part of the process. So if they determined this to be a catch, it was either due to the "time" element, or that the lunge, while not technically part of the process, is something that can demonstrate point number 2 above. )
Ruling: the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS
1. controls the ball and gets one foot down, he goes to the ground, gets his second foot down, ( We get what this means. )
2. with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself with his left hand
( This is less confusing, but still not really clear. This is the "time" element or more precisely, some action that kind of stops them from falling or regaining their balance.)
3. simultaneously lunges ( According to the wording of the ruling, the lunge is NOT part of the process. So if they determined this to be a catch, it was either due to the "time" element, or that the lunge, while not technically part of the process, is something that can demonstrate the act of trying to regain his balance. An act that could only be performed if one wasn't technically falling. )
Ruling: it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch.

A.R. 8.13 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS

1. before he completes the catch
( We get what this means. )
2. keeps his balance, gets both feet down, ( This is the clearest this part of the case play is written. The "time" element has been clearly been defined as "Keeps his balance. And remember, per the case play this is while going to the ground. But just as the other two case plays demonstrate, it is some act the interrupts or delays the act of falling. )
3. lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground.
( And gain, the use of the lunging act is to try and confirm that the act of falling had been interrupted and they made an act that could only be performed if one wasn't technically falling. )
Ruling: The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch.


So lets break these down even further. I'm only going to be talking about the points 2 and 3 from each case play.

2. Clearly the case plays are trying to interject another component of going to the ground that is not in the actual rules themselves. Something of this magnitude should be clearly called out and defined. Because there is no rule language, we are left to assume the intent. Big no no and is exactly why we are still talking about this 3 years later.

My view is that the "time" element relates directly to cases where a player attempts to or actually interrupts the action of falling. That interruption, based on the case play language, in of itself completes the process of the catch, but only if they attempt to lunge. Even though the act of lunging is not part of the process. This is one of the most poorly written things I've ever seen. They don't clearly say what the time element requirement is and they don't clearly say that its some interruption of falling. They purposely keep it ambiguous. But its' clear that this is the intent because of the other language they use to setup the lunge. But it goes from:
then still in control of the ball TO
with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself with his left hand TO
keeps his balance, gets both feet down

3. I believe these are references to how one can interrupt the act of falling and complete the process of the catch, but only if there is an additional action confirming that they aren't really on the ground ( the lunge ). If that makes sense? And it is really, really hard to make sense of this rule if I haven't said it before.

Now the big question is, are there any other acts that can be performed besides a lunge? I think they chose a lunge because you can only lunge if you are already on the ground or if you have some sort of balance. Switching the ball in your hands - you can easily do that while falling. Reaching - easily do that while falling. Taking a step - still can be done while falling. Lunging - I still think you could, but it's much harder to do. But maybe not so much for these super athletes. And is yet another total judgement call.

Why the rule itself only talks about maintaining possession through contacting the ground, but yet buried away in the case play is some mysterious "time/interruption" factor is just wrong. Something that important needs to be clearly defined.

Now, I still stand by the Dez call as made. I don't see at any point while he is going to the ground that he ever regains his balance or braces or interrupts his fall and THEN performs a lunge. He performs the lunge while still falling. I think that's what Blandino was trying to explain. I emphasize trying. But that two part process which they try to say aren't part of the same process is a complete judgement call.

Even if they don't change the rule they absolutely need to clarify and rewrite it.
Nice write up but there is no physical act like gather needed to interrupt going to the ground, any act common to the game does it. Blandino made up that crap to explain the overturn, it did not exist in the rules at the time. It is called CYA.
 

kskboys

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I'm well aware of the fact that we all repeat ourselves. But, Geeeezzzzzzz
 

KJJ

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And yet there are case plays that said an act common to the game ended going to the ground. Bravo you just admitted that Dez performed football moves making it a catch.

WzuVW0.jpg
 

blindzebra

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Nothing ends going to the ground. Going to the ground puts an end to everything else. The rule is clear a receiver has to complete the process if they’re going to the ground.
The case plays says different. Yes a RECEIVER must but an act common to the game makes you a RUNNER.
 

OmerV

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Case plays are an example of ONE possible scenario, not the ONLY scenario under the rules.
That is why you have to take an act common to the game, going to the ground case plays and apply rules 8.1.3.c and 3.2.7 to them as well, you know the rules that give other examples of acts common to the game.

lol - I never said it was the only possible scenario in the realm of all possible football scenarios, but it was the scenario you were hanging your hat on. Or are you telling me now that the scenario in the case book you are going off of is the one in which the receiver never even loses possession of the ball is the one you want to go by? Hmmm - that doesn't help you out now does it? We discussed the scenarios in the playbook yesterday, and none of them help you out without you cherry picking what you want to talk about and ignoring the rest, which has been your MO throughout this entire discussion.
 

MarcusRock

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Case plays give one of many possible plays that can happen. They are not all inclusive, they are just examples which is why you have to combine the rule language and the case play to understand all possible applications.

The case plays in question cover acts common to the game and going to the ground, which means the examples under 8.1.3.c and 3.2.7 ALL APPLY TO THE CASE PLAY.
It is not just the gather and lunge nonsense that Blandino pulled out of his butt, that you guys fixate on, it is all football moves.

Do any other football moves interrupt a player going to the ground? This is the question BF asks that you can't overcome.

This is why the Jesse James catch is not a catch. He was going to the ground and a reach out of the ball, way more demonstrative than Dez', mind you, didn't save him. It was a football move, right? Right?
 

OmerV

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Just because you have no clue how officials read and study rules does not make it cherry picking, but that is your go to when facts don't fit the argument, so I will take that to mean that my point hit home and you can't refute it with anything factual.

This is your most humorous post yet. You are now, on the one hand, arguing that your opinion is supported by the way officials read and interpret rules, and on the other hand saying the officials in the game got it wrong in how they read and interpreted the rules.
 
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