If Hayden was replaced with a superior 1 Tech player

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh I know, I just remember how well he played in both the NYG and Philly games. He stopped Murray and Matthews on a load of plays.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the Giant's. They were able to run inside on us both games particularly the second one. Eagles run a perimeter cut back scheme as opposed to the right up the gut that Hayden sucks at defending. When the blocker loses leverage and Hayden can pursue he is okay. He is just godawful at the point of attack.

edit: nm you were talking about McClain

 

[kiheikiwi]

I don't agree here. Hayden is a 1. He's not a 3 so you are very unlikely to find a 1 who can really rush and/or push the pocket. Those are unusual players.

This thing about Hayden getting pushed around is the same as all the DL. The price you pay for playing gaps is a team can take you the way you are leaning if they have the right play at the right time. If you get blocked in your flank you are going to be driven. We don't play st8 up or even shaded much so you are going to see the entire line collapse at times and that is just part of the scheme. There are weaknesses in a D playing two gaps as well.

We don't want to pay a lot for a 1. Spend it on your 3s and 5s or your LBs/DBs.

Cause that's worked real well these last 4-5 years.
Sorry, I don't buy this line of Marinelli thinking at all. I believe they stuck their proverbial foot in their mouths with the whole Floyd debacle. And now have to live by that motto every year. Got caught with their pants down and spun a whole bunch of bull to cover themselves.
If the reason was really because every 1-tech that has come available when we have picked - wasn't the "quick twitch" Marinelli likes, then there is no excuse this year at all !
If someone like Nkemdiche is there when we pick - by their own words, he should be the choice. We will see, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[NoLuv4Jerry]

Not that I think much of our GM.....who happens to be a great owner. But as a GM....if his coaches cannot win games without steak at every position...then you have the wrong coach/scheme/game plan etc...But you would have to be a competent GM to recognize this.

 

[reddyuta]

Not that I think much of our GM.....who happens to be a great owner. But as a GM....if his coaches cannot win games without steak at every position...then you have the wrong coach/scheme/game plan etc...But you would have to be a competent GM to recognize this.

Jerry rarely overrules the coaches.this is Marinellis fault,he has been preaching from day 1 that he doesnt value the 1 tech and we dont have have put draft resources there.If Jarry does some introspection then he would start with Marinellis scheme.

 

[jobberone]

Cause that's worked real well these last 4-5 years.
Sorry, I don't buy this line of Marinelli thinking at all. I believe they stuck their proverbial foot in their mouths with the whole Floyd debacle. And now have to live by that motto every year. Got caught with their pants down and spun a whole bunch of bull to cover themselves.
If the reason was really because every 1-tech that has come available when we have picked - wasn't the "quick twitch" Marinelli likes, then there is no excuse this year at all !
If someone like Nkemdiche is there when we pick - by their own words, he should be the choice. We will see, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm talking basic football with a one gap scheme. And I'll stand by what I said about that including not spending big bucks on a pure 1 in a one gap D. Doesn't really matter who is coaching it. It's the 3, overall pressure, WLB, tackling DBs, and a very good S who make that work.

I agree Hayden can be updated but we had bigger priorities and/or injuries which kept him on the field. He's not as bad as some here think but he can certainly be upgraded. I just would put that position at a lower priority unless you could get a 1/3 who could push the middle.

We need a CB maybe two, a real live S and some more competition, a WLB (Lee cannot be counted on-if healthy he starts and tutors), and maybe a DL or so. Unless there's another playmaker 3 that is available then you draft or pick him up otherwise you draft a more pressing needs.

 

[kiheikiwi]

I'm talking basic football with a one gap scheme. And I'll stand by what I said about that including not spending big bucks on a pure 1 in a one gap D. Doesn't really matter who is coaching it. It's the 3, overall pressure, WLB, tackling DBs, and a very good S who make that work.

I agree Hayden can be updated but we had bigger priorities and/or injuries which kept him on the field. He's not as bad as some here think but he can certainly be upgraded. I just would put that position at a lower priority unless you could get a 1/3 who could push the middle.

We need a CB maybe two, a real live S and some more competition, a WLB (Lee cannot be counted on-if healthy he starts and tutors), and maybe a DL or so. Unless there's another playmaker 3 that is available then you draft or pick him up otherwise you draft a more pressing needs.

I get your point on the basic scheme etc. I just think that for what ever reason, this defensive coaching staff is talking out their proverbial --s. Yes, Hayden is the scapegoat for a lot of wrongs on the defensive front. He is what he is, an average, try hard player who gives you everything he has. He should not have been put in the position he is in. We have heard every year that they want him in a rotation with lesser snaps - yet here we are again with them having to rely on him, 3rd most defensive snaps on the team. They cut a bunch of DT's this year, one got hurt. And all they have done is put a big ugly on the PS. And in reality it looks like he is just there to simulate a 3/4 NT in practice. Its just dumb.
Any one of the last 4 years he could have been upgraded. A 3rd, 4th, or 5th rounder over the last 4 years would have accomplished that. But no, they don't value the position - we can use 7th rounder's and a bunch of UDFA ! How the hell has that worked.
Our just paid 3-tech can't be the player he could be/should be, due to being handcuffed by the 1-tech. I'm tired of listening to the same old FO bullpucky.
Marinelli doesn't want a "pure 1-tech" he wants everybody to get up the field and attack the QB. It's the reasoning for not taking Floyd or any number of DT's in lower rounds over the last 4-5 years. Brown last year is another example of what they say they don't want.
Love having Martin, but would have been real interesting if Donald had been available that year..... So, by their logic if a quick twitch DT only comes along every so often - here we go this year. Or take a god-damn real 1-tech in the 3rd or something. Stop holding this D-line hostage with their stupid logic ....

 

[jobberone]

I get your point on the basic scheme etc. I just think that for what ever reason, this defensive coaching staff is talking out their proverbial --s. Yes, Hayden is the scapegoat for a lot of wrongs on the defensive front. He is what he is, an average, try hard player who gives you everything he has. He should not have been put in the position he is in. We have heard every year that they want him in a rotation with lesser snaps - yet here we are again with them having to rely on him, 3rd most defensive snaps on the team. They cut a bunch of DT's this year, one got hurt. And all they have done is put a big ugly on the PS. And in reality it looks like he is just there to simulate a 3/4 NT in practice. Its just dumb.
Any one of the last 4 years he could have been upgraded. A 3rd, 4th, or 5th rounder over the last 4 years would have accomplished that. But no, they don't value the position - we can use 7th rounder's and a bunch of UDFA ! How the hell has that worked.
Our just paid 3-tech can't be the player he could be/should be, due to being handcuffed by the 1-tech. I'm tired of listening to the same old FO bullpucky.
Marinelli doesn't want a "pure 1-tech" he wants everybody to get up the field and attack the QB. It's the reasoning for not taking Floyd or any number of DT's in lower rounds over the last 4-5 years. Brown last year is another example of what they say they don't want.
Love having Martin, but would have been real interesting if Donald had been available that year..... So, by their logic if a quick twitch DT only comes along every so often - here we go this year. Or take a god-damn real 1-tech in the 3rd or something. Stop holding this D-line hostage with their stupid logic ....

I hear you. Maybe they don't value it enough.

 

[kiheikiwi]

I hear you. Maybe they don't value it enough.

True, and that's the problem. It's that very thought process that has hurt the team.
Surely if something is not working - you change it.... yes ?
And just another little rant to add to this conversation - how come none of the reporters EVER question Marinelli, Garret, Jones etc. Week after week, draft after draft no one has the balls to call them out. "We don't value the 1-tech" and it's just dropped, like that's gospel or something. Just because they are coaches etc. dosen't make their philosophy correct, in fact I would say it has proven false. And I would call them on it !
Can you tell I'm a little "heated" about this topic : )

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm talking basic football with a one gap scheme. And I'll stand by what I said about that including not spending big bucks on a pure 1 in a one gap D. Doesn't really matter who is coaching it. It's the 3, overall pressure, WLB, tackling DBs, and a very good S who make that work.

I agree Hayden can be updated but we had bigger priorities and/or injuries which kept him on the field. He's not as bad as some here think but he can certainly be upgraded. I just would put that position at a lower priority unless you could get a 1/3 who could push the middle.

We need a CB maybe two, a real live S and some more competition, a WLB (Lee cannot be counted on-if healthy he starts and tutors), and maybe a DL or so. Unless there's another playmaker 3 that is available then you draft or pick him up otherwise you draft a more pressing needs.

The Bucs spent a first on booger mcfarland. Vikings trotted out a series of top 100 picks. Looking at the Bears roster, Tommie Harris and Melton were both good players.

I do think there is a psychological effect when the OC, QB or the like sees someone blowing up the middle of their formation. I would love to see someone abandon the run and let our pass rushers go to work. I haven't seen that since Wade Phillips coached here.

From what I can tell though you would prefer Ramsey over Nkemdiche? Or are you thinking QB or something else? LB? I get the impression Marinelli might prefer a LB like Shazier but I haven't seen anyone like that this year. First round I mean.

 

[jobberone]

True, and that's the problem. It's that very thought process that has hurt the team.
Surely if something is not working - you change it.... yes ?
And just another little rant to add to this conversation - how come none of the reporters EVER question Marinelli, Garret, Jones etc. Week after week, draft after draft no one has the balls to call them out. "We don't value the 1-tech" and it's just dropped, like that's gospel or something. Just because they are coaches etc. dosen't make their philosophy correct, in fact I would say it has proven false. And I would call them on it !
Can you tell I'm a little "heated" about this topic : )

I don't think it's always simple but if you're not winning you need to take an assessment.

It's okay to get hearted and even rant some as long as you have an argument to make which you do.

 

[jobberone]

The Bucs spent a first on booger mcfarland. Vikings trotted out a series of top 100 picks. Looking at the Bears roster, Tommie Harris and Melton were both good players.

I do think there is a psychological effect when the OC, QB or the like sees someone blowing up the middle of their formation. I would love to see someone abandon the run and let our pass rushers go to work. I haven't seen that since Wade Phillips coached here.

From what I can tell though you would prefer Ramsey over Nkemdiche? Or are you thinking QB or something else? LB? I get the impression Marinelli might prefer a LB like Shazier but I haven't seen anyone like that this year. First round I mean.

I just talk mostly Xs and Os. I don't follow the college ranks much so I'd defer to others' preferences. I just have preferences for filling needs.

 

[nalam]

Losing McClain and Scandrick really hurt this defense.

Scan drink was an important piece of the secondary , not only good player , but played with an attitude , now look at Carr , plays with no pride ....

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Scan drink was an important piece of the secondary , not only good player , but played with an attitude , now look at Carr , plays with no pride ....

I agree. I always really liked how he attacked pulling linemen. He played the slot and was key to the defense in the middle of the field. If Patmon could hold onto the ball. . .

 

[SportsGuru80]

I think losing Terrell McClain hurt us more then people realize. He was our run stuffer. Without him, teams have been able to gash us up the middle.

He was really coming on too....

 

[LocimusPrime]

Losing McClain and Scandrick really hurt this defense.

Losing romo hurt the defense even more. Physically and psychologically

But somehow through manipulation of numbers and wizardry, the cowboys defense is currently ranked 8th in total defense. Absurd! But true my friends.

 

[gmoney112]

The Bucs spent a first on booger mcfarland. Vikings trotted out a series of top 100 picks. Looking at the Bears roster, Tommie Harris and Melton were both good players.

I do think there is a psychological effect when the OC, QB or the like sees someone blowing up the middle of their formation. I would love to see someone abandon the run and let our pass rushers go to work. I haven't seen that since Wade Phillips coached here.

From what I can tell though you would prefer Ramsey over Nkemdiche? Or are you thinking QB or something else? LB? I get the impression Marinelli might prefer a LB like Shazier but I haven't seen anyone like that this year. First round I mean.

Jaylon Smith is probably the LB we'll be looking at. Dont be surprised to hear his name more, especially if we win a few more games and lose out on Ramsey

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Jaylon Smith is probably the LB we'll be looking at. Dont be surprised to hear his name more, especially if we win a few more games and lose out on Ramsey

Thanks man. I'm in a similar boat as jobber. I do other things on Sat and don't have that basis to start with. I've got a few games to watch it seems.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Jaylen Smith reminds me of Carter in space. No instincts at all for balls over his head and out in space. Anything other than short zones was an adventure. No ball skills or instincts. Other than that he is awesome. speed, quickness, physicality taking on blocks, ease in finishing tackles, can blitz and finish off edge and middle, you can see him making calls and adjustments.

I don't think he helps us with what we need most though.

 

[Jack Burton]

This is clearly a trick question. Everyone knows there are no superior 1 Tech players to the mighty Golden Cock Hayden.

 

[LUVDABOYS]

I think our biggest issue on defense is LBs. they are average across the board.

Guards are getting to the second level, blocking our LBers because the D-line isn't tying them up or getting penetration. Better d-line = lbers able to move to the ball better. jmo