If you've got Dog Questions I'm on my way to becoming a certified dog trainer...

[Juke99]

Really Juke, we have to have a few discussions on dogs ,dominance, alfa's and such ----I raise Aussies that are bred to be smart -tough -fearless and will become the boss if allowed. As you know that they are sneaky and problem solvers to boot..

My best piece of training advice for today is --Do not carry a gun to the cattle
pen when training a young dog.. That is free because I actually borrowed the line from one of the best cow dog trainers around (Ben Means).

And I will have a litter of pups coming Dec 26,2009...

I think the discussions of dominance, alphas has become a bit overdone...mostly because of that kucklehead Cesar Milan. The vast majority of dogs are not leaders, same as with people.

The Aussies are brilliant at reading the slightest of body movements and body language. That's why they almost seem to be mind readers. If you give them a command but don't truly mean it and your body language communicates otherwise, they'll follow your body language and not your command.

I often tell my students that I am very physical with dogs. That doesn't mean I lay a hand on them...but I do a lot of communicating with body language and energy. In fact, most of the commands my dog has learned (and I'm convinced she is part aussie) are hand signals.

It's all good stuff. You're lucky to have those Aussies...they're great dogs.

Oh...and Bob...just remember, whomever controls the food...the space in front of the dog...and the migration (walks) is the alpha. And there are some great ways to achieve this.

 

[justbob]

I think the discussions of dominance, alphas has become a bit overdone...mostly because of that kucklehead Cesar Milan. The vast majority of dogs are not leaders, same as with people.

The Aussies are brilliant at reading the slightest of body movements and body language. That's why they almost seem to be mind readers. If you give them a command but don't truly mean it and your body language communicates otherwise, they'll follow your body language and not your command.

I often tell my students that I am very physical with dogs. That doesn't mean I lay a hand on them...but I do a lot of communicating with body language and energy. In fact, most of the commands my dog has learned (and I'm convinced she is part aussie) are hand signals.

It's all good stuff. You're lucky to have those Aussies...they're great dogs.

Oh...and Bob...just remember, whomever controls the food...the space in front of the dog...and the migration (walks) is the alpha. And there are some great ways to achieve this.

I would swear she is part Aussie----You do have a good handle on the Aussie
breed... And the food (space in front is right ) and you have to have that space controlled first. Guess I don't know the trainer you are talking about.
If he is on Tv that would explain it(I don't watch much) My situation is different then a person controlling a house dog or a town dog.
My dogs have a deep bred desire to work livestock.. And I allow mine to dabble at it at a young age. That means they have to obey me over their instincts without thinking twice or they get hurt ...I do believe that starts when the dog excepts you as the alpha...doesn't mean beat them ...But a dog that works sometimes 2oo yards away from you has to realize that you are boss and realize it without a pocket full of treats...When I get a young pup I treat them much like the mother does --from holding them down by the neck to getting down to eye level and growling at them...They will, because I don't allow otherwise, look at me as the leader. This makes simple direction ,stop, down etc commands easy for them to accept when the time comes. My bloodlines come from the number 3 Aussie breeder in the US. My male was conceived using 20 year old frozen semen -so he is a throw back to breed that was even tougher and more aggressive then they are now.... Sorry to time so long--enjoy talking dogs and getting another prospective..

 

[justbob]

DO you work any with whistle commands --I have to start one female on the whistle because she will work so far ahead she intentionally goes deaf

 

[Juke99]

DO you work any with whistle commands --I have to start one female on the whistle because she will work so far ahead she intentionally goes deaf

I do a LOT of clicker training. Whistle commands are great for your dogs because of what they're doing...and you're on the nosey, it's a pitch that cuts through everything and can be heard at a long distance.

With regard to establishing leadership...I tell people all the time, it's all about TLC...Trust, Leadership and Clear Communication. The rest is a cake walk once that is established. Leadership isn't going to start without trust. "Dog Whisperer" my butt....people need to be Dog Listeners. Each one will tell you how to connect. So yep, you've got it nailed by knowing that once you establish leadership, the rest is easy. AND leadership can't be established through negative negative, and physical stuff because then the dog won't trust...and you know with yours, no trust, no leadership. If you behave in an irrational manner, as far as dog manners go, they're not going to follow you. Only humans are dumb enough to follow unstable leaders.

You should check out books or dvd's by Patricia McConnell....she's a trainer...one of the best...and she owns aussies who do herding for her on her farm in Wisconsin.

 

[Sarge]

so if any of you have any questions about behavioral problems, training issues...feel free to ask. I'll gladly give you advice that is 3/4 correct.

Good for you Sally. I just may take you up on that. I never thought I'd get any use outta you - whoda thunk?

 

[YosemiteSam]

When a dog takes a poop in the house are you supposed to rub their nose in it and quote Confucius?

Dog who **** in house, always have **** on nose and around mouth.

:laugh2:

 

[Juke99]

When a dog takes a poop in the house are you supposed to rub their nose in it and quote Confucius?



:laugh2:

I'm assuming this is a joke..or at least I'm hoping it is. :

But in case it isn't, zero zero zero effectiveness doing that.

Tons of studies have been done that show the longer the duration between the reward/correction and the action, the less effective it is...and get this, at five to seven seconds, it has no impact at all.

In house training, if the dog "makes a mistake" it's the owner's fault, not the dog's.

 

[Yeagermeister]

I'm assuming this is a joke..or at least I'm hoping it is. :

But in case it isn't, zero zero zero effectiveness doing that.

Tons of studies have been done that show the longer the duration between the reward/correction and the action, the less effective it is...and get this, at five to seven seconds, it has no impact at all.

In house training, if the dog "makes a mistake" it's the owner's fault, not the dog's.

What do you do when Bob poops in the house? I say beat the **** out of him with whatever you can get your hands on.

 

[justbob]

Juke will you please explain that Yeag is talking about that other Bob --I have
a rep to protect..

 

[Yeagermeister]

Juke will you please explain that Yeag is talking about that other Bob --I have
a rep to protect..

Rep? What rep? :laugh2:

 

[YosemiteSam]

What do you do when Bob poops in the house? I say beat the **** out of him with whatever you can get your hands on.

Bob who **** in house, always have **** on nose and around mouth. :laugh2:

 

[justbob]

Rep? What rep? :laugh2:

I don't know whether to be crushed by such a remark or to be embarrassed for you because you were not aware of my sterling reputation and high standing in the community -nation --heck probably the world --nothing like the other Bob

Back to dogs ---Not sure about the clicker training for my dogs Juke --although I do agree with the general idea of cue and then reward for positive results... I think it is the difference in training an acceptable behavior and molding natural instincts where the can controlled and used...My wife and I have similar conflicting ideas on horses--there is the cowboy way and the horse trainer way---both bring around the same results and both have extremest on both sides.

 

[Juke99]

I don't know whether to be crushed by such a remark or to be embarrassed for you because you were not aware of my sterling reputation and high standing in the community -nation --heck probably the world --nothing like the other Bob

Back to dogs ---Not sure about the clicker training for my dogs Juke --although I do agree with the general idea of cue and then reward for positive results... I think it is the difference in training an acceptable behavior and molding natural instincts where the can controlled and used...My wife and I have similar conflicting ideas on horses--there is the cowboy way and the horse trainer way---both bring around the same results and both have extremest on both sides.

Clicker training is great. The philosophy behind it is somewhat Pavlovian.

The shorter the interval between the command and the reward, the more powerful the reward is.

So, we command and the dog responds...we say "good dog" and then reach down with a treat and maybe 2-3 seconds has passed.

Once a dog is conditioned to the clicker (by simply click and treat, click and treat...over and over until the dog looks at the hand with the clicker rather than the hand with the treat) the CLICKER becomes the reward so it allows you to very quickly mark the behavior you're looking for and you can follow with the reward in three seconds and it doesn't matter...much more effective way of training.

You start by saying the command, clicking the behavior you want, treat...and then eventually, just say the command and no clicker.

The other thing that is cool about clicker training is you can "free" train the dog. The dog will know that the clicker means it's training time. So ya begin each session with a few clicks and a treat. Then you can simply let the dog roam and when you see something you like, you can click it.

I taught mine to roll a football with her nose that way. I had a few things in the back yard...one a kids football...she started to move toward it...i clicked and rewarded...she sniffed it, I clicked and rewarded...and eventually, she pushed it, probably by accident....and I clicked and rewarded. In this case, THEN I started to add the words "Roll the ball"

Too much fun.

 

[justbob]

Clicker training is great. The philosophy behind it is somewhat Pavlovian.

The shorter the interval between the command and the reward, the more powerful the reward is.

So, we command and the dog responds...we say "good dog" and then reach down with a treat and maybe 2-3 seconds has passed.

Once a dog is conditioned to the clicker (by simply click and treat, click and treat...over and over until the dog looks at the hand with the clicker rather than the hand with the treat) the CLICKER becomes the reward so it allows you to very quickly mark the behavior you're looking for and you can follow with the reward in three seconds and it doesn't matter...much more effective way of training.
Please don't take this as arguing the method --but Classical Pavlovian -I understand..Just trying to as for as the behavior- reward ---Just gathering info that will help dealing with a strong minded aussie in the future--just can make the jump in my where the classic treat clicker would work
You start by saying the command, clicking the behavior you want, treat...and then eventually, just say the command and no clicker.

The other thing that is cool about clicker training is you can "free" train the dog. The dog will know that the clicker means it's training time. So ya begin each session with a few clicks and a treat. Then you can simply let the dog roam and when you see something you like, you can click it.

I taught mine to roll a football with her nose that way. I had a few things in the back yard...one a kids football...she started to move toward it...i clicked and rewarded...she sniffed it, I clicked and rewarded...and eventually, she pushed it, probably by accident....and I clicked and rewarded. In this case, THEN I started to add the words "Roll the ball"

Too much fun.

For how long do you add the treat---if my dog looks back for a treat or reward they get their head kicked by a mad cow--they have to work for the desire of working and be willing to obey commands without looking back or wanting a reward ---not arguing with the method ---just trying to figure out how any of it can be blended into my training.My have to work of of voice ,hand or whistle from a distance. How dependent do they become to the "treat'

 

[justbob]

Juke please don't take this as me disagreeing --just trying to educate myself

I understand the ask -behavior -treat reward... trying to figure out how to mix it in my training ----

 

[Juke99]

For how long do you add the treat---if my dog looks back for a treat or reward they get their head kicked by a mad cow--they have to work for the desire of working and be willing to obey commands without looking back or wanting a reward ---not arguing with the method ---just trying to figure out how any of it can be blended into my training.My have to work of of voice ,hand or whistle from a distance. How dependent do they become to the "treat'

Well, yeah, yours is a specialized training. For the most part, the reward for your dogs IS the work they are doing. They LOVE what they do.

I'm sure there are basics, even things like "lie down" "sit" etc...and I'd be pretty sure that the first time your dog interacts with livestock, he has to be pretty excited....which is something I'm sure you don't want...so teaching a calming signal, vocal and hand, with the clicker would be good

I'm don't know much about teaching a herding dog...the only thing I'd suggest is that the clicker is a strong reinforcer for all the basics that you'd be teaching the dog when it's away from the herd...ya know, before you introduce it to herding.

Yep, it's not like you can stand there with a clicker in your hand while the dog is in the middle of a herd of cows.

But for all the basics, it's a great tool. Hey, it's still a dog that needs to behave in the house...have good manners....etc.

 

[Juke99]

Juke please don't take this as me disagreeing --just trying to educate myself

I understand the ask -behavior -treat reward... trying to figure out how to mix it in my training ----

Oh hey, I don't see it as disagreeing at all. It's all a learning experience....for me as well.

There's a saying, the only thing you can get two dog trainers to agree on is that a third trainer is wrong.



I think how you apply it to your training will be specific to you...and how creative you want to get.

For instance, I truly didn't like having to call my dog in late at night...just didn't feel like calling out in the back yard. So I started calling her to come AND flicking the light switch...sure enough, now I only have to flick the switch and she comes.

So it's all about being creative with any tool you can use.