Infatuated with some plausible creativity that could emerge with this RB cmte and this OC/HC

[_sturt_]

If teams like Indiana and Maryland were on the schedule I'd be all for it. I simply don't see it working out well against NFL defenses though. The Cowboys basically ran this a few years ago when they introduced the Hulk package, and that worked with decent amount of success. Replacing better blockers with skill players typically wont work at this level. You really don't see many 2RB packages these days, moving to 3 doesn't seem like a great idea IMO. I could see some value in this package if you wanted to run it maybe 1-2 times per game. As the year goes on you could start to play off of it if there is any sort of success, and possibly be able to catch a matchup issue in the receiving game as you motion a player out, but I think that is about it.

What I think might be more realistic for the Cowboys to do is use a similar formation, but with TEs on the field, or possibly Luepke if he is able to make the roster this season. The Cowboys have the bodies to do something like this but in the NFL this is more of a power formation, where as in college it could be ran as more of a combo of power & finesse plays. This is the type of formation in the NFL that you hit teams with power run,run,run,run,run....play action to sneak a TE out for a pass uncovered. This with a bunch of finesse and misdirection is likely only going to work once or twice before teams catch on, and honestly may get blown up several times unless your Oline is top tier.

Disagree with some of this, not all of it though... appreciate the extensive thought and comment given. Would debate a little here, but at this point in time, it's just for shucks and giggles anyway... until we'd see some evidence in preseason that this or something like this is a thing, I'm not going to get especially annoyed (nor enthusiastic) when someone gives their own take. I'll only mention that there's a lot of college innovation that made its way into the NFL over time... not everything, but not nothing either.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Disagree with some of this, not all of it though... appreciate the extensive thought and comment given. Would debate a little here, but at this point in time, it's just for shucks and giggles anyway... until we'd see some evidence in preseason that this or something like this is a thing, I'm not going to get especially annoyed (nor enthusiastic) when someone gives their own take. I'll only mention that there's a lot of college innovation that made its way into the NFL over time... not everything, but not nothing either.

Agree to a certain extent, the college game and NFL games are looking more and more similar every year, you're absolutely correct. I'll even admit that you do see some similar packages on occasion with teams like Baltimore and Philly who have very run heavy QBs. I'd have to go back and really look at the film but I believe these teams have used the QB as that "Ace" position so they still have the extra blocker in there so the math checks out.

To me when I look at it in relation to the Cowboys I just don't see as good of a fit. Dak can run, but not nearly like those other guys, and now north of 30 your probably don't want him taking as many shots if you plan on resigning him for another 4+ years. The backs they have now are more power & inside zone types of players outside of Deuce who I imagine will get some touches in creative ways this season. You also have Turpin who could be an interesting gadget player out of the backfield. Personally I just feel that blocking at the NFL level is twice as important as misdirection and decoy players. In college you can get around this at times as you have athletes who can outrun defenders. In the NFL that gap is closed too much as even a 1T like Mazi Smith has a 4.8 40 time on the books.

I really dont think you're too far off though, as I mentioned I could absolutely see something similar happening, but with less speed on the field. I just look at what does these team have in terms of roster construction to utilize creativity with. Turpin/Deuce are obvious ones to watch, but neither is offering much as a blocker and it might be dangerous to have them both on the field at the same time unless they really develop as pass catchers. Lamb has lined up out of the backfield before, that's one to keep an eye on. I think Leupke + the TE depth will be something to really watch out for though. McCarthy loves those tweener bodies on offense who can have the ball in their hands or block, and the Cowboys have a large amount of those guys in camp this year. This is what really brings balance to an offense. Thats the type of formation that could force teams to stay in their base alignment on defense, and if they bring a safety in the box can get you some 1v1 looks for Lamb on the outside.

Good offseason conversation though. I enjoy looking at different ideas way more than another Dak/Lamb/Parsons contract thread lol

 

[75boyz]

I'll settle for the basics myself.
And that refers to what are we with regards to blocking scheme and execution.
Inside zone, outside zone or man?

I lack confidence in Solari, Schott and McFraud figuring this out to the point of not having an effective cohesive run game plan from week to week.
Offensive run blocking scheme and execution regressed last year and not just because of Pollard's slow knee injury recovery time.

I fear the offensive run game philosophy will continue to be a failure for the reasons above.

jmo

 

[thunderpimp91]

I'll settle for the basics myself.
And that refers to what are we with regards to blocking scheme and execution.
Inside zone, outside zone or man?

I lack confidence in Solari, Schott and McFraud figuring this out to the point of not having an effective cohesive run game plan from week to week.
Offensive run blocking scheme and execution regressed last year and not just because of Pollard's slow knee injury recovery time.

I fear the offensive run game philosophy will continue to be a failure for the reasons above.

jmo

I can't argue with you too much as everything you're saying is pretty accurate, however it's interesting to look back at the league in general last season and see the trends. Aside from the elite run teams the league overall was down in run production. As bad as the Cowboys were a season ago they ranked right in the middle by almost every metric. YPC, yards before first contact, yards after contact, expected points off rushes, etc. The only area they were really bad in comparison to the rest of the league was in short yardage/goal line situations.

This will be an area to watch to see how or if the league adjusts to how they ran the football from 2023. Teams have really started to reprioritize interior players on the defense....well except for the Cowboys.

 

[Hawkeye0202]

they were really bad in comparison to the rest of the league was in short yardage/goal line situations.

Dak lead all QBs in TD passes...............

 

[thunderpimp91]

Dak lead all QBs in TD passes...............

What does that have to do with converting in the run game? Dak had a great 2023 season....The run game still struggled in short yardage situations though.

 

[Hawkeye0202]

What does that have to do with converting in the run game? Dak had a great 2023 season....The run game still struggled in short yardage situations though.

I am actually agreeing ..........running game struggle = Dak passing for more TDs (redzone)

 

[thunderpimp91]

I am actually agreeing ..........running game struggle = Dak passing for more TDs (redzone)

Gotcha, I just wasn't understanding the connection. Hopefully this area is improved this year. Can't expect Dak to come through that often again.

 

[charron]

If teams like Indiana and Maryland were on the schedule I'd be all for it. I simply don't see it working out well against NFL defenses though. The Cowboys basically ran this a few years ago when they introduced the Hulk package, and that worked with decent amount of success. Replacing better blockers with skill players typically wont work at this level. You really don't see many 2RB packages these days, moving to 3 doesn't seem like a great idea IMO. I could see some value in this package if you wanted to run it maybe 1-2 times per game. As the year goes on you could start to play off of it if there is any sort of success, and possibly be able to catch a matchup issue in the receiving game as you motion a player out, but I think that is about it.

What I think might be more realistic for the Cowboys to do is use a similar formation, but with TEs on the field, or possibly Luepke if he is able to make the roster this season. The Cowboys have the bodies to do something like this but in the NFL this is more of a power formation, where as in college it could be ran as more of a combo of power & finesse plays. This is the type of formation in the NFL that you hit teams with power run,run,run,run,run....play action to sneak a TE out for a pass uncovered. This with a bunch of finesse and misdirection is likely only going to work once or twice before teams catch on, and honestly may get blown up several times unless your Oline is top tier.

I was thinking this reminded me of the hulk package a little bit.

 

[ColoradoCowboy]

That video had 4 plays. In three out of the four, the RB was met at the LOS by an unblocked defender and had to make him miss.

 

[fivetwos]

Let’s see what they actually decide to do.

Most around here seem to be ok with Elliott returning….largely under the assumption that he has a lesser role.

I really don’t think that’s going to be the case and that word will come from upstairs (man if there isn’t 25 different things that are time bombs for this team this year).

 

[Cowboys5217]

Dak lead all QBs in TD passes...............

Which promptly dried up when it was playoff time as usual.............

 

[Cowboys5217]

Let’s see what they actually decide to do.

Most around here seem to be ok with Elliott returning….largely under the assumption that he has a lesser role.

I really don’t think that’s going to be the case and that word will come from upstairs (man if there isn’t 25 different things that are time bombs for this team this year).

That's called copium, and it will be in short supply as soon as Zeke gains less than 40 yards on 20 carries against the Browns week one.

 

[_sturt_]

That video had 4 plays. In three out of the four, the RB was met at the LOS by an unblocked defender and had to make him miss.

The video was just one of several clip packages that are cited on the Penn State blogger's page about the formation. It was a randomly chosen one, only cited in order to give visitors to this thread a picture of what's being discussed.

Even so... your point sounds like you're being disparaging, but the point is actually the exact opposite... sure, if formations grew on trees that allowed your skill player no defenders to get in on the play, yes, pick those formations... they do not, of course.

So, a formation and play out of that formation that allow your skill player to get one on one with a defender... not two, not three, and certainly no gang tackling force... one should wish that could happen in 3 out of every 4 plays ran, to be sure. The reality is that idyllic scenario is a lot to ask.

 

[Rockport]

This RB situation is no different than the slop they tried to get by with at WR before trading for Amari Cooper.

It will be completely blown up after the season.

As the roster stands now.

 

[_sturt_]

For the record, I'm sure Risen Star would be a lot of fun to sit at a bar and watch a game with, and I do appreciate that he's so quick to get new information posted here... but his Eeyore thing is just tedious. Too predictably cynical/pessmistic for me to even care.

Now, on to what I came back here to post...

Really like this example of how you can use the formation as a basis for passing plays as well...



Seems could be particularly effective given that CeeDee became established as an occasional ball carrier out of the backfield last season... so, conceivably, this very same play could be ran with Cee Dee and your best two receiving RBs, with Cooks and Fergy taking more normal in-line positions.

 

[_sturt_]

Just discovered that the Ravens apparently have made some use of it...

 

[_sturt_]

Continuing to build on the thought... I'm a little fascinated by the though of running this with the variation that the QB is under center. With that, you would seem to create more opportunity for using the two upbacks as ball carriers, and at the same time, if you have a backup QB highly regarded for running the ball, you create opportunity to pitch the ball back to him and create some roll-outs in which he can either pass or run.

 

[gimmesix]

Hunter will be a surprise. Though it may take our coaches to week 10 to figure it out.

I'm hoping that we primarily run 1-TE, 1-FB sets when we're not in three-WR. My reasons for that are if we're going to run inside zone with our big backs, then it would be better to have a FB leading them into the hole and getting low to root out LBs than a TE, and Luepke offers more of a skill-set than any of our backup TEs. He can be handed the ball on a dive or run a pattern.

 

[_sturt_]

Might be important to make the distinction that while the formation certainly provides a platform from which 2 blockers in the backfield (presumably a FB and a TE) can operate and have effect, it does not demand any particular position mix. There's flexibility there. So, while the base might be Rico at tailback with Zeke and Fergy as upbacks, could totally opt out of that for a passing play that deploys Turpin in the tailback slot, and then CeeDee and Fergy in upback slots... with Cooks and Tolbert on the line at each side. What's prone to happen is that the defense is caught flat footed with that--leaving LBs on the field--in which case you run the passing play as-intended... but if they do get DBs on the field after all, you opt in to a running play after all, employing CeeDee or Turpin as ball carrier.

In short, the versatility of the formation is compelling.