Infatuated with some plausible creativity that could emerge with this RB cmte and this OC/HC

[Chasing6]

Its the formation. RBs are required. Can't put WR in place of RBs. A good, flexible and varied run attack would do wonders for this team.

Well that is pretty much exactly what NE did. They put WR's or small RB's with great hands at the RB position.

They used the short yard passing game as an extension of the run because they struggled running traditionally running the ball.

They had a RB by committee.

 

[Typhus]

It's the off-season of the off-season, of course, which means it's the time, if ever you're going to talk about nerdy things like offensive formation possibilities... mere possibilities... then this is that time.

So, for what it's worth... probably nothing... here's my vision of a new package that McCarthy could plausibly introduce this season, given the stable of RBs that we have, and their somewhat differentiated skill sets.

https://fortheblogy.com/inside-penn-states-playbook-diamond-formation/

Once you read, or at least scan that link... give some specific attention to the part that reads, "As it turns out, having a pocket full of “Aces” offered Yurcich play-calling options out of Diamond that were simply off the table at Oklahoma State. Within a limited 6-game trial run, it feels as if Yurcich only scratched the surface of what Diamond can do to opposing defenses when your entire Diamond backfield is filled with versatile athletes."

So, making application to our situation, I'm seeing a pocket full of aces.

Dare to imagine with me the idea of running this or very similar with a base of Rico as the head of the diamond, Zeke as the cowboy back to one side, and Luepke to the other side. All three are capable blockers. All three have been legitimate ball carriers.

Then, building on that, you've got some intriguing alternatives to that base.

Deuce can be the head of that diamond, and you can push Rico forward to a cowboy position, or not.

CeeDee can be the head of the diamond, or you can also position CeeDee at a cowboy position, either to flare out for a pass play, or to take an inside sweep handoff... or to act as a decoy for something completely different, perhaps a screen to the other side.

Trey Lance can be the head of the diamond, for any number of Taysom Hill-like possibilities.

Or, for 3rd and 1, your jumbo package can be Zeke as the head of the diamond, with Luepke paired with, say, TJ Bass as cowboy backs.

For those who mainly just want to see what I'm talking about, not necessarily read... here are a few clips...



Fun to think about, anyway. Again, just some stray thoughts for a lazy off-season Sunday afternoon.

Great now you exposed the entire Offensive secret to everyone....
On a serious note you are absolutely correct that we have the personal to play bigger and more physical 2024.
They had to, SF showed and proved that we were the weaker team, 49ers have been pushing us around for way too long.
That is about to change now, this OL has a very solid chance to come together quickly. so just start lining up the RBs and let the one finding the lanes get some snaps.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Um. No. Any formation at the college level could conceivably "work" due to disparity of talent. Any. Because, in that case, it's not about the formation in the first place, and so the success has nothing to do with how they line up.


So, your theory is, the Ravens haven't had ultimate playoff success because they used a formation that worked?

And. Exactly what is your perception of the percentage of plays that the Ravens used the diamond?

And. What is your evidence for saying, "they are trying to move away from using as often"... so, again, important to establish how "often" it was used, so we can assess the "trying" you allege.


I've posted in this thread now about a half dozen reasons why this conclusion is completely... completely... absurd. To the complete contrary, we have arguably as good a stable of weapons as one could imagine to make this formation highly highly effective. It's why the damn thread was ever started in the first place. So, "because I said so" might cut it for you and for a few others who perhaps come to this kind of conversation with a contrarian tilt... but for the rest of us, "because I said so" falls flat.

Frankly, you're the one going on with the "because I said so" responses. I admit I do not have the statistics or really the urge to search for them, but their use in the NFL or lack thereof speaks volumes. If these formations were really as successful as you want to lead us to believe, there would be widespread usage, but we just don't see that in the NFL. It does get used from time to time and if it could truly be used to scheme mismatches as effectively as you would have us believe then we would see professional NFL coordinators, that get paid and do this for a living, exploit it to it's fullest. At the NFL level, it's nothing more than an occasional creative wrinkle not a key to unlock an offense.

 

[_sturt_]

this OL has a very solid chance to come together quickly.

Appreciate the thoughts otherwise, but pardon my skepticism that we're going to find a smooth transition at LT or at C individually, let alone both. It normally doesn't work that way. But that's a whole other thread, of course, so that's as much as I'll dive-in here.

 

[_sturt_]

Frankly, you're the one going on with the "because I said so" responses.

Absolute BS.

Look, my friend, just because you're not so important to me that I'm going to repeat the half-dozen or so posts I've inserted into discussion in this thread doesn't mean that I've not provided some logical reasons... not fact-based, you're right, since that's excluded by the premise that we would be talking about use of this formation in past tense... for believing this could be a very productive addition to McCarthy's scheme for 2024.

Read. Or don't. I don't care. But logic is more compelling... much... than because-I-said-so.

then we would see professional NFL coordinators, that get paid and do this for a living, exploit it to it's fullest

I'll grant that, if you'll also grant that the read option wasn't always a staple of NFL offenses... that had to evolve over time to be something that gained regard... similar, tush-push... similar, empty sets... similar, shotgun... and again, some rosters have the personnel to make a given element work well, others do not. The premise of this thread is that... where the diamond formation is concerned... we do, and we do arguably as well if not better than any other offense in the league... for reasons already explained and that I'm just going to be a stubborn mule and not rehash in this post.

 

[Typhus]

Agree to a certain extent, the college game and NFL games are looking more and more similar every year, you're absolutely correct. I'll even admit that you do see some similar packages on occasion with teams like Baltimore and Philly who have very run heavy QBs. I'd have to go back and really look at the film but I believe these teams have used the QB as that "Ace" position so they still have the extra blocker in there so the math checks out.

To me when I look at it in relation to the Cowboys I just don't see as good of a fit. Dak can run, but not nearly like those other guys, and now north of 30 your probably don't want him taking as many shots if you plan on resigning him for another 4+ years. The backs they have now are more power & inside zone types of players outside of Deuce who I imagine will get some touches in creative ways this season. You also have Turpin who could be an interesting gadget player out of the backfield. Personally I just feel that blocking at the NFL level is twice as important as misdirection and decoy players. In college you can get around this at times as you have athletes who can outrun defenders. In the NFL that gap is closed too much as even a 1T like Mazi Smith has a 4.8 40 time on the books.

I really dont think you're too far off though, as I mentioned I could absolutely see something similar happening, but with less speed on the field. I just look at what does these team have in terms of roster construction to utilize creativity with. Turpin/Deuce are obvious ones to watch, but neither is offering much as a blocker and it might be dangerous to have them both on the field at the same time unless they really develop as pass catchers. Lamb has lined up out of the backfield before, that's one to keep an eye on. I think Leupke + the TE depth will be something to really watch out for though. McCarthy loves those tweener bodies on offense who can have the ball in their hands or block, and the Cowboys have a large amount of those guys in camp this year. This is what really brings balance to an offense. Thats the type of formation that could force teams to stay in their base alignment on defense, and if they bring a safety in the box can get you some 1v1 looks for Lamb on the outside.

Good offseason conversation though. I enjoy looking at different ideas way more than another Dak/Lamb/Parsons contract thread lol

Good post, you focus on Turp/Deuce which will be interesting to watch, but that is our light package, both great to have.
As you had stated in your post of Luepke and the depth at TE, we have a fully loaded TE room heading into camp.
Not enough talk IMO about how this TE group can enhance the running game.

 

[DuncanIso]

Good post, you focus on Turp/Deuce which will be interesting to watch, but that is our light package, both great to have.
As you had stated in your post of Luepke and the depth at TE, we have a fully loaded TE room heading into camp.
Not enough talk IMO about how this TE group can enhance the running game.

Will Deuce even crack 100 yds rushing for the entire season?

I can’t see him as RB3.

they are going to feed Zeke the football.

 

[Typhus]

Will Deuce even crack 100 yds rushing for the entire season?

I can’t see him as RB3.

they are going to feed Zeke the football.

I bet he matches or is close with his reception yards, probably 100 on the ground and the same with reception yards.

 

[_sturt_]

Given some more road trip time yesterday... you know, when you get to just zone out and think of unimportant, for-the-heckuvit things...

In the parallel universe where ol' sturt is the OC for the Dallas Cowboys, I'm inclined to make heaviest use of the diamond formation for any down in which a call for a run is reasonable (and thus, the defense has to respect the possibility of either a run or a pass out of the formation)... so 1/10 or less, 2/7 or less, and/but especially for 3rd and short.

It occurs to me that one of the three backs you put on the field each should have some regard as a runner, a receiver, and a blocker... all three... let's call him the Swiss (Army Knife) back.

Another doesn't need to be much of a blocker, but should be a legit running and receiving threat. Pretty much every play, the design calls for that guy to either to take touch the ball in the backfield, to run a route, or to be a decoy. Let's call him the Emmitt back, the intended tribute being obvious.

And the last guy needs to be the opposite of that--good blocker, but being a good runner is optional, as is being a good receiver. And you're surely ahead of me. We'll call him the Moose back.

Oh. And the guy under center or in the shotgun? Why of course, we don't call him a quarterback. We call him the Stau back. (Knew you'd like that.)

Here's one vision of that, then...

Of course, depending on a variety of factors, you may have reason to want to line-up on a given play with Zeke and Rico, plus one of the Emmitt Backs, or plus one of the Moose Backs. Especially on 3/2 or less, you may want to choose Zeke plus two of the Moose Backs.

Too, there are variations of the formation where you may want to have the upbacks in the formation wider than normal, or the head of the diamond deeper than normal. As mentioned, you may want to have the QB take the snap from under center... as I've learned that ARZ sometimes has run it... or in the shotgun, as the Ravens have run it. And creating total chaos, you could even put a receiver in motion but instead of straight down the line, circling back through the backfield to receive a WR screen from a QB rolling out the other way. Another effect, you're routinely going to get 8 guys in the box, so that presents some opportunities for a Brandon Cook downfield.

Good stuff. Over here in my parallel universe, anyhow.