Informal Poll Is Garrett a better Head Coach than Wade?

[ShiningStar]

Yep. One thing I do like about Garrett is that he's bringing in multiple high-potential players and letting them fight it out.

We're reportedly fairly interested in adding Sedrick Ellis to the DL. I think he and Hargrove would give us some veteran options there where we could use some competition.

We've added some depth at CB, WR, TE, and, as we've said, S, too.

I did think we needed to add a second quality player to the OL. Frederick made sense. I thought Brandon Moore and Clabo both made sense, as well, but apparently the team didn't agree.

But, overall, yeah, we're playing young players, drafting well, and creating competition and depth where we didn't have much before. I think things are actually pretty positive for Dallas, other than the fact that our underrated franchise QB is getting up there.

yes, it sucks it took the organization this long to come around to helping out Romo, but all teams have to deal with that. Thats why i always say we dont get to see every QB at their peak. But ROmo has had a lot to deal with.

If Monte and company can get safety play straightened out, i will feel so much better. Im not saying its a big problem, but its one of the problems that have hurt us on defense.

 

[cml750]

Wade was a BAD head coach, there is absolutely no doubt about that. The jury is still out on Garrett as a HC, but it was PAINFULLY obvious that he was in WAY over his head trying to be a HC and OC. Here's to hoping he proves to be an excellent HC when that is all he does. Thank you Jerry for stripping him of his OC and playcalling duties.

 

[ShiningStar]

Wade was a BAD head coach, there is absolutely no doubt about that. The jury is still out on Garrett as a HC, but it was PAINFULLY obvious that he was in WAY over his head trying to be a HC and OC. Here's to hoping he proves to be an excellent HC when that is all he does. Thank you Jerry for stripping him of his OC and playcalling duties.

what made wade so bad?

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I don't understand what you're saying here.

A GM's job is to fill the roster full of players so the HC can have the set of players he needs to put together a contender.

Now how can we not have a problem finding Safety talent? We haven't found any by and large. You say we haven't been aggressive enough in the FA and draft - well that's a GM's job not a HC's job.

I feel that finding talent on defense hasn't been a problem in the past 10 years. We've spent either good money or good draft picks at every position on defense besides safety and NT and have seen them perform well. And NT was a situation where we got a surprisingly good player out of Ratliff in the 7th round and there was no need to spend big money or make a high pick at NT in the draft.

At 3-4 DE, we picked Hatcher in the 3rd round and he's been a very good player for us, particularly in the past 2 years. At ILB we have Lee (2nd round pick), Carter (2nd round pick) and Bradie James (4th round pick). We have had Ware and Spencer, both 1st round picks, at the OLB spots. Newman was a 4th overall pick and generally played very well for us. We got some solid production out of Anthony Henry (FA). Jenkins at least showed that he could play well in this league (1st rounder), but Wade wasn't the right coach for him.

We get to the safety spot and we had Roy Williams who was a great safety until the league adapted to utilizing more athletic, pass receiving TE's.

My perspective is that defensively we do not have problems picking up talent if we either spend some money in FA or draft a player in the first 3 rounds. This is unlike the offense where we've had major struggles with the O-Line, regardless of where we have drafted them.

So I don't see it as a problem of spotting talented safeties, we have just refused to make safety as a priority. This is the first time we've made safety somewhat of a priority and we still have a 4th round pick in Johnson, a UDFA in Church and a 3rd rounder (who isn't ready) in JJ Wilcox.

I think Parcells did not want to spend much money at the safety spot. Wade was probably the same way as well. Oddly enough, I think Kiffin is the same way as well, but he's the one guy who has proven that he can create a defense that makes safeties look better than they actually are.





YR

 

[khiladi]

 

[Rockport]

what made wade so bad?

He let the players rule the roost. No discipline, no accountability.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

He let the players rule the roost. No discipline, no accountability.

How is that different from now?

 

[Rockport]

How is that different from now?

Just listen to the players talk. There's plenty of intangible evidence that it's not the same way as it was under Wade.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

No, there is no difference really.

 

[Rockport]

No, there is no difference really.

Yes, there is a difference. Have you seen the Cowboys players under Garrett quit on him?

 

[khiladi]

You've made some good points about staff hirings being more geard toward what Garrett wanted versus want Wade wanted (allegedly). Of course, they should have been, since Garrett was coaching the offense.

But on this point, now you're just making stuff up. This is the offensive stats from the first 6 weeks of the 2008 season - before we traded for RW, and more importantly, before Romo got hurt.

Team Points (offense) First Downs 3rd Down Conv Punts TOP
CLE 28 30 72% 2 37:29
PHI 34 20 60% 3 30:32
GB 27 22 50% 3 32:12
WAS 24 21 50% 6 21:51
CIN 31 18 60% 3 31:45
ARI 24 14 41% 5 27:45

So we scored at least 24 points on offense in each game, led in TOP in 4 of them, and converted at least 50% of 3rd downs in all but one of them. If you want to point to the WAS and ARI games as a "stagnating" offense, fine, but we're talking about two whole games, and against ARI, we weren't blocking anybody. And their 3rd down coversion % was still above league average in that game.

No, this move had everything to do with Romo getting hurt, JJ panicking, and the fact that JJ had long coveted RW, and now had a chance to get him.

Against Washington, Tony Romo didn't get sacked once. Washington controlled the TOP from 38 to 21 minutes. Between the 2nd and 3rd, Dallas was ineffective moving the ball, the only time they scored was on a field goal against the Skins on a one minute drive to end the half, with Romo making plays like normal to keep the drive alive. In fact, the Commanders were up 17 7 going into the half. Even in the 4th, the TD that the Cowboys got was a clean-up, the Commanders already up 26-17 with 3 and a half minutes to go, i.e. garbage time TD. 87 of the 300 yards Tony Romo threw came on that final useless drive, meaning Romo's numbers in the passing game were very deceptive.

Against Cincinatti. Tony Romo only threw for 176 yards. Between quarters 2 and 3, which was the staple of the Garrett offense that continues today, Dallas's drive were punt, fumble (56 seconds to go, typical put the pressure on Romo play with little time to score), punt, punt, intercepted pass. 4th quarter, Dallas scores twice. Agian, 4th quarter magic of Tony Romo.

Arizona, the first five possessions were all punts. The first 3 drives, were 3 and outs. During that stretch, Arizona fumbled and threw an INT, meaning kept giving the Cowboys chances. Romo threw for 321 yards, but 70 of those yards came from that busted play to Marion Barber with 2 minutes left to go. Agian, 4th quarter magic. The Cardinals game is when Romo got hurt, but as is evidenced by their performance, they weren't moving the ball pre-Romo getting hurt either. Romo didn't play the very next game, so you can't blame the push for RW was because of Tony Romo being out.

These were 3 scrub teams that year, the bottom dwellers.. Arizona didn't allow a team to score under 20 the whole season. That offense was going south pre Roy Williams, whether you want to admit it or not. It gets a lot worse 2009, cause the sample size for the passing game for Garrett gets a lot bigger. The prpoblem is, the injury to Tonr Romo gave Jason Garrett and excuse. But then again, he's the guy that brought in Brad Johnson to back up Romo, so he's also to blame for that.

 

[Picksix]

Against Washington, Tony Romo didn't get sacked once. Washington controlled the TOP from 38 to 21 minutes. Between the 2nd and 3rd, Dallas was ineffective moving the ball, the only time they scored was on a field goal against the Skins on a one minute drive to end the half, with Romo making plays like normal to keep the drive alive. In fact, the Commanders were up 17 7 going into the half. Even in the 4th, the TD that the Cowboys got was a clean-up, the Commanders already up 26-17 with 3 and a half minutes to go, i.e. garbage time TD. 87 of the 300 yards Tony Romo threw came on that final useless drive, meaning Romo's numbers in the passing game were very deceptive.

Against Cincinatti. Tony Romo only threw for 176 yards. Between quarters 2 and 3, which was the staple of the Garrett offense that continues today, Dallas's drive were punt, fumble (56 seconds to go, typical put the pressure on Romo play with little time to score), punt, punt, intercepted pass. 4th quarter, Dallas scores twice. Agian, 4th quarter magic of Tony Romo.

Arizona, the first five possessions were all punts. The first 3 drives, were 3 and outs. During that stretch, Arizona fumbled and threw an INT, meaning kept giving the Cowboys chances. Romo threw for 321 yards, but 70 of those yards came from that busted play to Marion Barber with 2 minutes left to go. Agian, 4th quarter magic. The Cardinals game is when Romo got hurt, but as is evidenced by their performance, they weren't moving the ball pre-Romo getting hurt either. Romo didn't play the very next game, so you can't blame the push for RW was because of Tony Romo being out.

These were 3 scrub teams that year, the bottom dwellers.. Arizona didn't allow a team to score under 20 the whole season. That offense was going south pre Roy Williams, whether you want to admit it or not. It gets a lot worse 2009, cause the sample size for the passing game for Garrett gets a lot bigger. The prpoblem is, the injury to Tonr Romo gave Jason Garrett and excuse. But then again, he's the guy that brought in Brad Johnson to back up Romo, so he's also to blame for that.

Again, you're taking a couple of fragments of a couple of games, and making sweeping generalizations about the offense. Against WAS and ARI, they struggled at times, but shoot, you can look at any offense and pick out parts of games where they didn't do anything. And you've conveniently discounted or discarded all the times during those games where the offense was killing it. No team scores repeatedly for an entire game, game after game. Every offense has dry spells.

Don't give me this 4th quarter magic stuff against Cincinnati. We had two good drives that led to TD's. And turnovers aren't a sign of a stagnating offense. They're mistakes. Overall, they were above average in points, yards, first downs, 3rd down conversion rate, and punts.

If that's your definition of a stagnating offense, then every team at some point has a stagnating offense. This isn't arena ball, and it ain't Madden.

 

[khiladi]

Again, you're taking a couple of fragments of a couple of games, and making sweeping generalizations about the offense. Against WAS and ARI, they struggled at times, but shoot, you can look at any offense and pick out parts of games where they didn't do anything. And you've conveniently discounted or discarded all the times during those games where the offense was killing it. No team scores repeatedly for an entire game, game after game. Every offense has dry spells.

Don't give me this 4th quarter magic stuff against Cincinnati. We had two good drives that led to TD's. And turnovers aren't a sign of a stagnating offense. They're mistakes. Overall, they were above average in points, yards, first downs, 3rd down conversion rate, and punts.

If that's your definition of a stagnating offense, then every team at some point has a stagnating offense. This isn't arena ball, and it ain't Madden.

Funny how a 'two game' spread shows a powerful offense and 'killing it' against the Browns and a Green Bay team that year which was average, but a 3 game spread doesn't.

I gave you the three game spread in which their offense started stagnating right prior to the Roy Williams trade, and that too against teams that were LOUSY in defending the pass. Struggling agianst lousy teams consistently isn't the sign of a good offense no matte how you try and spin it.

The Commanders, who were awful that year, totally dominated the TOP and the last TD and drive is nothing but 80 plus yards that obscures actual reality of yardage gained as well as TOP. Cincinatti, Romo couldn't put up plus 200 yards. Cincinatti was awful that year. And the Arizona game, Romo was getting hammered, broke his ribs, the game was pretty much out of reach till that miraculous 70 yard scamper by Barber on like a five yard dump off on a busted play by the horrific Arizona defense. Iornically, the very first possession in overtime, the Arizona defense killed the Cowboys offense that couldn't move and got lucky on that scamper, which led to a punt that was blocked leading to the Cardinals victory.

Then Brad Johnson entered the fold and we know who got him as a backup. Like I said, too bad Romo got hurt, because it gave Garrett the excuse he needed for his horrific offensive play-calling that year, but even then he couldn't hide his own incompetence.

Then Dallas, after their second horrendous showing against the Commanders again offensive, had a couple of good games against a pathetic Seahawks team and the 49ers, which obscured the reality. It was the same year TO beat the 49ers coverage against SF and had like 217 yards catching with Romo and TO proclaimed as evidence he never lost it. The lights were on TO as the reason the offense was in decline. This is when he was blamed for being the cancer on offense and the reason the offense was slowing down. Then came the infamous Steelers and ravens games, the latter when Ravens players called out how predictable Jason Garrett was. The Steelers game, criticism about the offensive lack of dynamism was being framed in the context of TO and Romo not being on the same page.

This was the very same year that TO shot off his mouth and was then released in March of 2009. TO, Crayton and everybody else was implicating Garrett. The idea that the offense wasn't struggling during this whole context is absurd.

 

[tantrix1969]

Yes, there is a difference. Have you seen the Cowboys players under Garrett quit on him?

technically yes they have, if they quit on Wade then JG gets some of the blame as well since he was oc/assistant hc/hc-in-waiting for not getting on his guys then for the subpar effort....or maybe JG quit on Wade too

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Just listen to the players talk. There's plenty of intangible evidence that it's not the same way as it was under Wade.

The players spoke well of Wade when he was here, too. Does that mean there was accountability and discipline when Wade was here? lol

Im not sure why you'd mention intangible evidence, but im waiting to see some tangible evidence.. on the field.. of accountability and discipline. Last year, as far as im concerned, was alot more of the same stuff we saw under Wade that was blamed on "camp cupcake" in the past.

Well, now Wade is gone, and the stuff is still going on. Players not knowing where to line up, how to adjust for the audible, not having the right packages on the field or not enough players on the field, poorly timed penalties, sloppy play, etc... that's not playing with focus or discipline when you have things like that going on.

And as for accountability, have you EVER seen JG bench someone or sit them for a series even for doing something stupid in a game? Making an awful play? Taking a bad penalty?

Nope.. i know Jason preaches these things all the time, accountability and discipline, but we really need to see that start manifesting itself on the field this year for this team to become successful.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

Going into the season, if I had to pick one, Wade without hesitation.

 

[IrishAnto]

You can judge the HC based on his ability to develop the talent that he is given and use the talent to win games.

Nevertheless, this is all predicated on having someone higher up bring in a pool of decent players for the coach to choose from.

So is there some way we can compare how Garrett and Wade wold fare coaching the same group of players.

Oh yeah, there was that 2010 season where Wade got the whole offseason to put in his plans for the year and develop his defense. He got to start with Romo, an elite QB with Kitna an established veteran backup QB behind him. Meanwhile Garrett got that same team but after Romo was injured with the aged Kitna as his QB and Stephen McGee as his backup. Garrett also couldn't rely on having one of the best DCs in the game in his fold but had to hire one of Wade's lieutenants, a failed college HC named Paul P who had a week with Garrett to try and re-design a porous defense that just gave up 83 points in the last two weeks under the defensive genius of Wade Phillips.

Wade: 1-7
Jason: 5-3

Verdict: Garrett in a landslide

Now add on other things a HC can bring to a team like discipline, organization, culture, player development, coach recruitment, draft guidance. On these measures it is also Garrett in a landslide.

Phillips inherited a very talented roster that BP gave up on. Wade immediately saw the opportunity to build a great team by putting the offense in Romo's hands and fixing some of Parcells defense of the 80s and bring it into the modern game and voila - an explosive offense and a decent defense leading to a 13-3 record with brilliant play on the field. That very easily could have been a SB team. Then the next year things start to fall apart as Wade can't keep the team in check, Jerry has gone wild after the success of the "TO experiment" and brings in guys like Tank Johnson and Pacman Jones and drafts a guy like Marty B and Choice. The team gets off to a slow start and he can't quell the mutiny. Finally Romo gets hurt. Things get even worse when he doesn't talk Jerry out of the RW11 trade where a first and third rounder are given up for a mediocre ex-Longhorns player. Finally Romo comes back but the OL struggles with Proctor in there since Wade can't convince Jerry to invest in the OL beyond all those high paid vets who are playing mediocre ball. This ultimately culminates in the 44-6 collapse against the Eagles. But that team still had a lot of talent and with a healthy Kosier the OL is back to being pretty decent again most of the time until Colombo gets hurt but this time there is a decent backup in Free so things continue to be okay and we win the division going away and cream Philly. But then Wade decides to put Colombo back in and he struggles a bit. Then he gets demolished against the Vikings and loses us the game. Then Flo gets hurt and he can't even pull Colombo and sub in Free anymore. Then finally there is the disaster that is the 2010 season with the team in freefall.

The end analysis is Wade started with a veteran team with a rising young core of Romo, Witten, Barber, Rat, TNew, Bradie and Ware. The problem is that he only wanted to play vets but those vets got old, we got tight against the cap and couldn't buy new ones and the cupboard was bare in the developing propspect ranks. That's what happens when guys like Ware, Barber, RW11, Flo, TNew, Bradie, Hamlin, Miles and Bigg are all playing on their second contracts and not on their cheaper rookie deals. If you can't develop young players to step in for a lot of your vets and you have to pay free market payscale for Jerry's hype machine causing your players to be overrated around the whole league you're going to hit a wall at some point in time. We hit that wall in 2010 when all those previously signed players were already released and creating dead cap space or were about to be released due to fall in level of play.

Now Garrett came in charge at a different time. Most of the talent on the roster had already peaked (Ware, Witten, Romo, Spencer, Austin) or was nascent (Lee had yet to start a game, Dez was a returner and #3 WR who could only run 3 routes, AOA busted, 2009 busted, 2008 never developed). So the fundamentals needed to turn a team around weren't there - very little in the way of young and developing players, no cap space, no extra draft picks. Everyone thinks it is a given that Lee and Dez were going to be great but Lee only played 5 games last year and Dez faced numerous cries to be traded or outright release by this fan base after the 2010 offseason, the inconsistent 2011 season and the bad 2011 offseason followed by a slow start to the 2012 season. In other words, if Garrett was going to rebuild this team he had to do it the hard way - get some of the vets to play better, develop his own draft picks and UDFAs, scrape the bottom of the vet FA barrel and hope for some luck. Unfortunately the luck didn't come in 2011 with late key injuries to Holland, Murray, Austin "losing the ball in the lights", TNew's legs giving out down the stretch, Kosier's legs giving out down the stretch, JPP's blocked FGA, Bailey's misses against AZ and Balt, Dez's finger against NYG.

I think the thing that has me most convinced that Garrett is gong to be good though is the way his players are developing and the way his players fight. Everyone was convinced that Church was going to bust in 2012 but he looked great until he got hurt. People thought Costa was terrible but he looked like he had turned the corner last year when he got hurt. Mo looked good for a rookie. The lights really turned on for Dez. Spencer set a personal record for sacks in a season and really picked up his play after Ware got hurt. Hatcher picked up his play the last two seasons after Rat's play tailed off. Lee looked like an All-Pro before he got hurt in 2012. Carter looks like a future Pro Bowler after many worried he would bust and insisted a backup plan be in place (re: wasted cap dollars on Connor). Look at Hanna develop when everyone insisted that he couldn't catch the ball. Look at how Harris turned himself into a dangerous punt returner and amazing RAC WR after being released in 2011. Players all across the roster seem to be stepping up now that they have been in the system surrounded by players who work really hard and follow the leaders that have developed. Guys like Lee, Witten, Romo and Ware show these guys what it takes to be a professional on and off the field and act as models for success. This rubs off on those behind him who no longer have the goofballs and misfits to look up to anymore (TO, MartyB, Choice, Hurd, Tank, Pacman). Lee takes Carter under his wings and then he is out there flying around after Lee gets hurt keeping us in games. The other thing I admire is the fight these players have in them. The way they came back against Cinci when they were badly outmatched on the talent front after Brown's death. Or how about the way they fought back to take the lead in Cleveland, then come back after Rob Ryan blew the coverage and then won it in OT. How about how they came back against the Skins (35-3) and the Giants (23-0) or the Ravens in the second half or the Saints down 2 scores with 5:00 to go. This team just doesn't quit no matter the score and no matter how outclassed they are in talent on the field. They just keep fighting and clawing.

The way I see things the seeds of success have been planted with all the drafts and the nurturing of these players to develop them into excellent pro football players with great ability and work ethic. The next wave of Cowboys stars is going to explode so long as the injury bug goes back to its historical norm. I believe in the players we have assembled and now with Rob Ryan gone and Kiffen/Marinelli in place I believe in the coaches, too.

I so look forward to this season. An average OL should put is in the second round of the playoffs with a chance to play one of the league's best teams.

The best part of all is that I think they have developed a sustainable model of talent acquisition and player development. The last key cog will be the development of young defensive coaches to mold as the future after Kiffen and Marinelli retire. We all saw with Jimmy Robinson that even great coaches can suddenly decide they need to hang them up. Neither Eberfluss or Henderson will be ready for a couple of years. I think Eberfluss is special and is going to be a great DC - I am so happy he decided to stay here and learn under Kiffen and Marinelli.

I think we have entered a new age where this FO is thinking about sustainability instead of gambling that they are one vet away from a shot at the SB. This is a mentality that lead to moves like Bigg's signing, RW11 trade, Galloway for 2 firsts and accepting the risk of cancer with TO and Pacman. I still could see us signing a premier vet at the right price and at the right position but I think it is more likely to be on favorable terms for the team. That is how you build a sustainable winner and play for something year after year. This is the way Tex/Brandt/Landry did things and that is how you stay successful for a long time. You need to develop a core and then you need to keep renewing it. Jerry's problem has been that when he has found success he has stayed stagnant but that model will never work in football with the short shelf-lives of players and the minimal impact any one non-QB has on the team of 27 starters.

Very well put and I agree with you point of view.

I do hope Garrett is given sufficient time to allow this methodology to take effect.

 

[Rockport]

technically yes they have, if they quit on Wade then JG gets some of the blame as well since he was oc/assistant hc/hc-in-waiting for not getting on his guys then for the subpar effort....or maybe JG quit on Wade too

That's a ridiculous statement.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

That's a ridiculous statement.

How so?

By all accounts, Wade was the coach of the defense, and JG was the coach of the offense. At the very least, he was still OC.. so if his guys respected him as much as we think, you would think he'd be able to get them to work hard for him on the field. There was no accountability then, either. If i were JG and i saw my guys playing like that, i'd start sitting guys down and putting a few 2nd string guys out there for a series or two for starters, at least.