Informal Poll Is Garrett a better Head Coach than Wade?

[ShiningStar]

Watched that '09' game in Vegas, with money on the line, with my business partner, who's a lifelong Minny fan. I was trying to hard not to be smug going in--and he appreciated that because he secretly thought we were going to spank them, too. Man, that second half with our tackles collapsing was the worst. Ray Edwards? Are you kidding me?

yeah, that was brutal.

 

[Zekeats]

Is Garrett a better Head Coach than Wade?

Slim pickin

 

[Eskimo]

The final chapter in the comparison story will be written this season. Until then, the book is incomplete.

I cann't tell you how many times I have said it over the past few years...

"Garrett was in over his head from day one with HC and OC responsibilities handed to him on a silver platter".

Now that he is being made to fit into a more holistic strategizer role that may lend more opportunity for success, I will be very interestd to see how he uses the opportunity.

I agree.

Garrett got stuck as OC/HC in 2010 and managed to turn the thing around. I think he got over-confident that he could continue on in that role year after year. IMO, each is a full-time if both are to do be done properly. If you focus too much on the offense the rest of the team suffers from your focus on offense. If you focus too much on HC duties then the offense suffers from not having enough oversight.

I think we have seen in 2011 and 2012 some evidence of Garrett partially succeeding in each role but not fully succeeding in either role.

Now he has handed off OC and playcalling to Callahan and Callahan has handed off most of the day-to-day coaching to Pollack. This is a much more sustainable arrangement and I hope things work out better for all this year.

The big problem last year was that with the loss of the top 3 Centers, the two OGs battling injuries and the two OTs just playing poorly we couldn't get anything going in the running game. We became solely dependent on the passing game but didn't have enough pass blocking upfront to make it work without Romo absorbing too much abuse. We also suffered numerous TOs from Romo and Dez/KO not being on the same page. Now those issues with Dez seem to have resolved by the second half of the season when we played much better. But the second half of the season was ultimately sabotaged by a defense that was missing too many key pieces: Rat, Brent, Ware (shell of himself), Lee, Bruce Carter and Church. Now there go 2 All-Pros and two potential future Pro Bowlers. Moreover the replacement players themselves got hurt leading to guys off the street playing a lot of snaps.

I do think with health from key players this year that we can be very good on both offense and defense. We should really be able to pick up a lot of wins so long as the OL plays average ball this year which means both average run blocking and average pass blocking. We need to run better in short yardage and the red zone. We need to be better in ball protection and it is almost impossible to believe we will be worse in TO generation.

This team can be very good. Not only can it be very good but I think it is about to being a long swing upward with the proper systems now in place and key blueprints about the kinds of players we want in place. Thakfully most of the 3-4 of Ryan which has a lot of 4-3 elements in it transitions very smoothly to Kiffen's 4-3 so I think we should hit the ground running. I think we take a lot of teams by surprise who don't have a lot of film about how our players will look carrying out their new assignments and it will shock them what we have back there in athleticism and what we have upfront in our rushmen. So add in what we have with now a much cleaner draft process and a much better player development regimen in place and I see a run of playoff appearances so long as we can stay strong at QB.

 

[DallasCowpoke]

Informal Poll Is Garrett a better Head Coach than Wade?

Curious, exactly what's the difference between a "formal" and an "informal" poll? Is it a dress-code thing or something?

 

[xwalker]

Curious, exactly what's the difference between a "formal" and an "informal" poll? Is it a dress-code thing or something?

A formal poll counts the votes. It is a yes or no answer wirh a running count of the votes.

 

[Blue Eyed Devil]

I think Garrett is a better head coach than Wade but not by the extent some Garrett-loving-media portray. I think we just went from a below-average head coach to an average one.

 

[KJJ]

I think Garrett is a better head coach than Wade but not by the extent some Garrett-loving-media portray. I think we just went from a below-average head coach to an average one.

Until Garrett coaches a winning team that makes it to the playoffs he can't be considered a better head coach than Wade. It amazes me how many fans are putting Garrett ahead of Wade as a head coach when he hasn't even coached a winning team and has had some major blunders with game management. It's obvious a lot of fans didn't like Wade as a head coach and are judging him off the last 8 games he coached in Dallas.

I didn't like Wade as a head coach but the fact is after 2 full seasons Garrett hasn't come close to proving he's a better head coach than Wade. Garrett doesn't have a single skin on his wall and is coaching for his job in 2013 regardless of what Jerry says.

 

[DallasCowpoke]

A formal poll counts the votes. It is a yes or no answer wirh a running count of the votes.

Hey...did you know Kilts weren't actually worn until some 400 years after the time of that fraud, William Wallace? Therefore...crap movie!

If you ask me, Rob Roy MacGregor would'a kicked the snot outta that pantywaist!

Let's face it. Given his penchant for flaying dead people, Wallace was basically just an early-day Jame 'Buffalo Bill' Gumb.

 

[junk]

You honestly believe what's holding this team back is Jason Garrett's lack of experience as a coach?

What held the other coaches back?

Oh, there are bigger issues than Garrett. Much bigger issues. But, Garrett is definitely part of the problem as well.

His coaching inexperience has certainly hurt the team.

 

[xwalker]

Hey...did you know Kilts weren't actually worn until some 400 years after the time of that fraud, William Wallace? Therefore...crap movie!

If you ask me,
Rob Roy MacGregor would'a kicked the snot outta that pantywaist!

Nobody asked you.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I think it does matter.

The Rooneys were a joke until they hired Chuck Noll.

The Giants were a bad joke until they hired Parcells. Became a joke again under Handley and Reeves, regained some credibility with Fassel and then became one of the more respected organizations in football under Coughlin.

Speaking of the man; the Jaguars were a solid organization when he was the coach. Now I would think they are the organization most likely to move to LA or London.

How about the York family in San Francisco? They were considered a bad joke under their various head coaches until Harbaugh came along.

Yeah, I think coaching matters a ton.







YR

You're confusing eye for talent with the other skills of being a head coach - but he was not better than Landry - yet the end results suggest so. Noll was a pretty solid coach, but you have to admit they did a much better job of acquiring talent during his era.

Because it took him five years to get that team to a championship.

His first year team. Save for Hanratty and Green, he had a bunch of JAGs.


TE/T Bob Adams University of Pacific
WR Don Alley
DT Dick Arndt
RB/TE Warren Bankston
DB Chuck Beatty
T John Brown
DB Lee Calland
WR Bob Campbell
LB John Campbell
WR Marshall Cropper
G Sam Davis
LB Doug Fisher
G Larry Gagner
DT * Joe Greene Rookie
DE L. C. Greenwood
RB Earl Gros
T Mike Haggerty
QB Terry Hanratty
WR/DB Jon Henderson
LB Jerry Hillebrand
TE John Hilton
DT Chuck Hinton
RB Dick Hoak
DB Bob Hohn
WR Roy Jefferson
T/C Jon Kolb
C/DT Ray Mansfield
DB/WR/HB Paul Martha
LB Ray May
RB Don McCall
DE/DT Ben McGee
HB/K Gene Mingo
QB Kent Nix
DB Clancy Oliver
LB Andy Russell
QB Dick Shiner
DB Jim Shorter
LB Brian Stenger
T Mike Taylor
G Bruce Van Dyke
DE/DT Lloyd Voss
P Bobby Walden
DT Clarence Washington
G Ralph Wenzel
WR J.R. Wilburn
WR Erwin Williams
LB/DE Sid Williams
DB/HB Marv Woodson

Four years later

RB Rocky Bleier
CB * Mel Blount
LB Ed Bradley
QB * Terry Bradshaw
T/TE Larry Brown
C/G Jim Clack
WR Dave Davis
LB Henry Davis
G Sam Davis
RB Steve Davis
DB John Dockery
DB Glen Edwards
RB John Fuqua
DE/DT Steve Furness
K Roy Gerela
QB Joe Gilliam
T Gordon Gravelle
DT * Joe Greene
DE L. C. Greenwood
LB * Jack Ham
DE/DT Craig Hanneman
QB Terry Hanratty
RB * Franco Harris
T Glen Ray Hines
DT Ernie Holmes
G/T Mel Holmes
DT Tom Keating
T/C Jon Kolb
WR Frank Lewis
C/DT Ray Mansfield
TE John McMakin
DB Dennis Meyer
G/T Gerry Mullins
WR Barry Pearson
RB/DB Preston Pearson
DB John Rowser
LB Andy Russell
WR Glenn Scolnik
WR Ron Shanklin
DB J. T. Thomas
LB Loren Toews
G Bruce Van Dyke
DB Mike Wagner
P Bobby Walden
LB George Webster
DE Dwight White
WR Dave Williams

 

[Eskimo]

It probably took Noll and the trainers that long to get everyone on steroids at the right dosage.

Has anyone ever said when those Steelers teams started heavily using steroids?

 

[TwoDeep3]

It probably took Noll and the trainers that long to get everyone on steroids at the right dosage.

Has anyone ever said when those Steelers teams started heavily using steroids?

Because the addition of talent doesn't matter. Right?

 

[Eskimo]

Because the addition of talent doesn't matter. Right?

Part of the problem is how much of that talent just seemed to suddenly emerge. They just started pushing everyone else around. After the fact it came out that they were the early adopters of steroids - high doses too. I think a number of them have died early of steroid related illnesses. I definitely view their meteoric rise as suspicious - I think it gave them the edge in their 2 SB wins over us. You take away the steroids and we're probably the champs and people talk about Landry and his 4 SB wins instead of Noll.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Part of the problem is how much of that talent just seemed to suddenly emerge. They just started pushing everyone else around. After the fact it came out that they were the early adopters of steroids - high doses too. I think a number of them have died early of steroid related illnesses. I definitely view their meteoric rise as suspicious - I think it gave them the edge in their 2 SB wins over us. You take away the steroids and we're probably the champs and people talk about Landry and his 4 SB wins instead of Noll.

Look at the rosters. They added a bunch of quality talent to that team by the time they went to their first Superbowl together.

Now I am not saying juice had no hand in that. But there is a great deal of talent and a lot of hall of famers that are on the later squad that were not on the earlier squad just four years before.

The biggest argument and fallacy of Jimmy Johnson and the silly argument about who really built the championship teams is that he went to Miami and could not duplicate it.

That proves more than it disproves.

Jimmy did not have a ton of draft picks at the right places in the draft to move around and target the exact players he needed. Plus he had an old Marino and not a young Aikman.

Jimmy didn't change. Jimmy was still a fire breathing coach when he went to Miami.

What changed was the talent and the ability to assemble the talent..

Why was Joe Gibbs a loser the second time around with the Commanders?

Dungy moved from Tampa to Indianapolis and won with Manning - perhaps one of the best quarterbacks ever . Chucky came in and won with Dungy's players. But Dungy had put together a winning team.

Chucky gets the credit.

I am not saying that a coach cannot elevate a team to play up to their potential. But I am saying if you do not have the talent, that coach cannot manufacture it with a wand and crystal ball.

The argument about Romo always comes down to the talent around him and not that player. same for coaches, because Switzer could not build a team if he had to in the NFL. But he could eat a hotdog on the sidelines and watch a team built by Jimmy win it all.

Campo had a beat up Aikman on the back side of his career. If he had Romo, would he have been 8-8 three years in a row?

And if that is the case, then what does that say about Garrett?

 

[jobberone]

I used to play basketball with Steve Courson while in college. He was one of the first to tell of steroid use in the NFL but he started using in college. He had a few pounds on me one summer then the next year he had 25-35 on me. He developed a heart condition allegedly caused by steroids. I think he had a cardiomyopathy but don't remember for sure.

 

[Eskimo]

Okay, I see the point you are making.

Yes, the coach can only go so far with the talent that he is given to work with. If he doesn't have talent he can't win.

I fully agree with that and very few coaches get both GM and HC duties. Even fewer handle both duties really well.

I do think the HC and the GM need to be on the same page. The HC and GM have to decide on the systems they are going to use and the sort of players they are looking for in each system who can execute the duties properly. Havind said that, a good coach always massages things around for elite talents and then also massages things around to try and cover up a weakness the best he can.

I think the two positions are very interdependent. If the GM is finding good players but the HC isn't recognizing it or not using it optimally by putting them in position to succeed then they are going to look like bad players and the GM will be blamed even though it is mostly a coaching issue. OTOH, if the GM has the team littered with poor players there isn't much the HC can do about it and he won't be a consistent winner.

The Dallas HC position is a particularly weird one in that there isn't really a true GM in the conventional sense of the word. Jerry is the GM but he isn't a football guy and he doesn't really know how to scout. He also isn't very objective and let's his emotions get into things way too much. So the Dallas HC can have more input into player selection than may be typical of most head coaches but since it is decision by committee he doesn't wield true GM power. Now as a consequence of having more influence he will bear more blame for draft choices than will be typical of most HCs. But if the HC here doesn't do a good job on the player acquisition via draft side of things he is going to fail because Jerry isn't going to manage the cap well for him. What I mean is Jerry will be constantly overpaying his declining vets and pushing you into cap hell. Jerry also doesn't have a knack for finding golden nuggetts on other team's rosters whose play elevates here. I think most would agree that last year's crop of Carr, Livings and Bern were all overpaid and underdelivered.
Jerry has also demonstrated a consistent inability or unwillingness to sign his young players to extensions before their final contract year. This has lead to him overpaying at times (Doug Free, Miles Austin, MB3) and also losing useful cogs at other times (Randal Godfrey, Stephen Bowen Cris Canty, Ken Norton Jr). The Eagles have often made a habit of getting young stars inked to extensions early and for the most part under Andy Reid they had been consistent winners. So Garrett is going to have to come to the table more for Jerry and let him know who should be targeted for early extension and which vets we need to let walk or even trade to maintain cap balance.

So far the part about Garrett we have seen the most is the tendency to favor young players and the tendency to want to get young players out there and contributing early compared to most recent Cowboys coaches. He also doesn't appear to be too afraid of going without vets. Last year we famously got rid of that vet Safety when we only had Sensy, Church, M. Johnson and McCray. Then Johnson rips both his hamstrings and tweaks his back and Church blows out his Achilles and McCray shows why he was a backup in college all-year. So it can backfire but the big advantage is letting them see what kind of leap they need to make to compete at this level early and learning a bit about their strengths and weaknesses in live game action as there is only so much you can figure out in practice. This tendency of Garrett will serve him well in this cap age and I think he understands this better than anyone. Now the key to getting the players on the field quickly as by having the best coaches available who are good at teaching and good at developing skills. I think the current group of coaches is quite good particularly with the recent additions of Kiffen, Marinelli and Callahan. It is a shame that the WR coach decided he couldn't commit to the coaching lifestyle anymore but at least he will continue to act as a consultant and help out the new guy who Garrett knew pretty well. He did get two guys into the NFL within the first two rounds this year and the 3rd guy who he kicked off the team didn't get drafted. It sounds like Dez is responding well to him which is really the most important thing for the franchise right now - to keep Dez on his path to super-stardom.

So I think Jason is a guy who maybe can function well under Garrett. He seems to have his ego in check unlike Jimmy. He seems to command the respect of his players unlike Campo and Wade. He seems to accept the idea that football is a young man's game and he needs to get them out there early to have a chance in the new NFL unlike BP who liked his retreads. But more importantly than anything else, I truly believe that Jerry values Jason's opinions and doesn't go against his wishes much. So I think this relationship can be successful for a long time so long as Jason starts to win and Jerry continues to defer to Jason on most football related matters.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Because the addition of talent doesn't matter. Right?

You act like Noll didn't develop that talent.

And it still doesn't answer coaches like Coughlin. Coughlin went thru 3 different GM's. Look at the drafts when he was with the Jaguars and now the Giants. Did he just happen to find 3 great GM's that were great at that time. Is he that lucky? Or is he a great coach who is great at developing talent?

I tend to think the latter.

I don't think we have an issue with getting talent on this roster. We have issues with developing players, getting players to play positions and in schemes where they can succeed and getting players to not let the spotlight go to their heads.

I think we have tried to make Romo into Tom Brady or Drew Brees and he's not. And we have had a suspect pass defense primarily caused by the fact that we have had a mediocre safety tandem since 2003. And I don't think it's a problem with finding safety talent, it's a problem with not being aggressive in looking for quality safeties in the draft or FA.

Those are gaping holes one can point to that show why the team has hovered around .500 for the past 10 seasons.

Until we resolve those issues, it doesn't matter who the owner is or if Jerry dies and we bring in a reputable General Manager. I think a good HC solves almost all of those issues. And we could have the greatest GM in the world, if the HC cannot solve those issues we'll be doomed to repeat history.






YR

 

[stiletto]

Equad bad... neither deserved to be coach of the Cowboys. Garrett had done nothing to deserve the job. Wade was a re-tread we all dreaded and knew what we were getting. No matter what, the coach is going to be a yes man until Jerry is really ready to win again. Both of these guys are a waste of time.

 

[Slamman]

I think the Wade Vs. JG topic in an interesting one. The biggest problem with JG is that he doesn't really do anything really well as a HC or OC. Being brutally honest, the Cowboys are at their best when Romo ran the no huddle and JG had little control of the offense. And, if you look at Wade's tenure in Dallas, it was the offense that failed in key moments... Much more so than the defense. The loss to the Giants in 2007 was much more on the offense than defense. The defense twice held the giants to 3 and outs to give the offense the ball with great field position. It was the offense who couldn't capitalize.

In 2008, the team fell apart because of the offense and TO. JG really handled that situation poorly. Before TO and the WRs divided the locker room, there were stretches when the Cowboys were playing fantastic football.

Why did the 2009 draft suck? JJ and JG wanted another WR and traded 3 picks including the 2009 first for Roy Williams which was a complete disaster to the point the cowboys had to draft WR again in the first the following year.

And, against Minnesota in 2009, it was the offense that royally sucked... Committing numerous TOs and only scored 6 points. Honestly, Wade's biggest problem before 2010 was JG.

Wade, at least, is an elite DC. Nobody can take that away from him. However as a head coach, his problem is that he seems to always have early success but then can't sustain it. I think players love his style at first and play hard. Then, he can't sustain it because he's too soft.