Is Garrett getting a pass for lack of discipline?

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Idgit

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There is no indication that Gregory doesn't love the game or isn't a good teammate. There's every indication that he loves marijuana more.

There was indication that McClain did not love the game, but no indication he wasn't a good teammate. Dallas gave him a prove-it deal to give him the chance to show he cared enough about playing to toe the line. He showed enough the first season for Dallas to give him another prove-it deal, and then he went back to being Rolando.

Hardy had shown he loved the game and was a good teammate. His deal was structured to account for his DV suspension. I don't think the Cowboys expected his attitude to sour when the season went into the tank. That plus less productivity than expected led Dallas to not be interested at all in re-signing him.

Two out of three met Garrett's RKG definition when Dallas acquired them. McClain did not completely meet it, but was a low-risk gamble.

I'm sure none of these players were ideally what Garrett would want because who would want a pothead, woman beater and purple dranker, but his definition of RKG does not eliminate players with problems, especially when the risk you take in acquiring them is not that great.

Probably the most accurate way to say it is that all three have/had some RKG attributes. That's what got them on the team despite the risks involved. If they had been known as locker-room cancers AND not having a love for football, I don't think Garrett would have gone along with their acquisition, no matter how cheap the cost.

Of course, I could be wrong about that. It's possible that RKG doesn't matter as much when the team is taking a low risk that allows it to move on from a player when it establishes that he isn't going to change.

You're right that they'll obviously take more risks on fit when the player doesn't cost picks or guaranteed money. That only makes sense.

It also mattered more as they were establishing the culture. There was a lot of bad blood with the Crayton, Barber, Ratliff, Choice group when Garrett first took over. They put an emphasis on drafting and signing character guys, and it made a big difference. That allows them to take a few low-risk chances. I'm fine with that.

It's the selection of high risk players like Gregory that I have a bigger problem with. It's expensive to miss on a guy like that, and you're likely to miss.
 

CowboyRoy

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There is no indication that Gregory doesn't love the game or isn't a good teammate. There's every indication that he loves marijuana more.

There was indication that McClain did not love the game, but no indication he wasn't a good teammate. Dallas gave him a prove-it deal to give him the chance to show he cared enough about playing to toe the line. He showed enough the first season for Dallas to give him another prove-it deal, and then he went back to being Rolando.

Hardy had shown he loved the game and was a good teammate. His deal was structured to account for his DV suspension. I don't think the Cowboys expected his attitude to sour when the season went into the tank. That plus less productivity than expected led Dallas to not be interested at all in re-signing him.

Two out of three met Garrett's RKG definition when Dallas acquired them. McClain did not completely meet it, but was a low-risk gamble.

I'm sure none of these players were ideally what Garrett would want because who would want a pothead, woman beater and purple dranker, but his definition of RKG does not eliminate players with problems, especially when the risk you take in acquiring them is not that great.

Probably the most accurate way to say it is that all three have/had some RKG attributes. That's what got them on the team despite the risks involved. If they had been known as locker-room cancers AND not having a love for football, I don't think Garrett would have gone along with their acquisition, no matter how cheap the cost.

Of course, I could be wrong about that. It's possible that RKG doesn't matter as much when the team is taking a low risk that allows it to move on from a player when it establishes that he isn't going to change.

Someone that loves pot more than his way of making a living shows no indication that he doesnt love the game? You cant be serious with that comment.

So now they only need SOME of the attributes?

Like I said, if those 3 guys are Garretts RKG's then the RKG thing is a complete joke. Which most people and the media continue to laugh about.
 

CowboyRoy

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You're right that they'll obviously take more risks on fit when the player doesn't cost picks or guaranteed money. That only makes sense.

It also mattered more as they were establishing the culture. There was a lot of bad blood with the Crayton, Barber, Ratliff, Choice group when Garrett first took over. They put an emphasis on drafting and signing character guys, and it made a big difference. That allows them to take a few low-risk chances. I'm fine with that.

It's the selection of high risk players like Gregory that I have a bigger problem with. It's expensive to miss on a guy like that, and you're likely to miss.

Sure they did. Then they drafted Gregory and signed McClain and Kraken. Yah, THEY were trying to really change the culture.
 

CowboyRoy

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This is where we've crossed over to the point where there's too much that's just logically inconsistent here that I don't want to even try to hash it out.

I didn't say anything about Garrett's definition being absurd, I was referring to your intentionally absurd example. I don't agree with your assessment that most of the media laughs at the culture in Dallas. It doesn't follow that if drafting Gregory was a mistake he necessarily should also be cut. The distinction you're trying to make between chemistry and attitude is irrelevant because neither are or have recently been even remotely issues in Dallas. Players and team management talk glowingly about Garrett all the time. Listen to either Stephen Jones' or Jason Witten's interviews from this week if you want a recent example. Or listen to anything Linehan has ever said about the HC.

As far as you continuously trying to parse out a universe where everybody *but* the head coach gets credit for the successes and the HC gets the blame, knock yourself out. Not my circus, not my monkies. I've been through this too many times on this site to worry about the perceptions of fans who react emotionally instead of rationally.

LOL....I never said the media laughs at the culture, I said they laugh at Garrett when he tries to continue to talk about RKG's. Why do you think they continue to ask about it? Because it makes absolutely no sense when they continue to keep guys around like Gregory and all these suspensions.

But the best thing is how you become selective in what you give Garrett credit for and what you dont.

Garrett gets credit for the culture and chemistry in your eyes, but not for the suspensions. He gets credit for the 13-3 season, but not for the 4-12 season.

McClain was a mistake, but the great draft picks were Garrett. The suspension were the fault of grown men, but nothing to do with Garrett.
 

hornitosmonster

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Could you imagine if this was happening under Wade Phillips?


Can't be correct. Cardinals Darly Washington has been suspended since 2013. He missed 4 in 2013, 16 in 2014, 16 in 2015, and 16 in 2016. So that is 52 games for just 1 player. Your charts has them at 21

You can't believe everything you read on Twitter. You need to vet sources. This Bobby guy is way off
 
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Idgit

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LOL....I never said the media laughs at the culture, I said they laugh at Garrett when he tries to continue to talk about RKG's. Why do you think they continue to ask about it? Because it makes absolutely no sense when they continue to keep guys around like Gregory and all these suspensions.

But the best thing is how you become selective in what you give Garrett credit for and what you dont.

Garrett gets credit for the culture and chemistry in your eyes, but not for the suspensions. He gets credit for the 13-3 season, but not for the 4-12 season.

McClain was a mistake, but the great draft picks were Garrett. The suspension were the fault of grown men, but nothing to do with Garrett.

None of what you're suggesting here I've actually said, of course. I've consistently said Garrett is a good coach. I've never even remotely suggested he's been perfect. He gets credit for the culture. He owns the suspensions. He gets credit for both 13-3 and 4-12, and we know the reasons for each. He owns responsibility for the bad draft decisions; that doesn't mean we don't have an obvious track record of drafting well overall under Garrett. See how it works? I don't have to apologize for anything, because the team actually has been improving. I can take the bad with the good and still have been right about Jason because the facts are that we have a young team that wins a lot and that is continuously improving with a great culture and a surplus of picks and what's about to be a flexible cap situation. And this all happened despite Nolan Carroll getting a DWI and us missing on the Gregory pick or taking chances on players like Greg Hardy and Rolando McClain.

Let's take a step back and look at what you profess to believe, and compare it to what I'm saying. If I have this right. Your position:

--We're drafting well now primarily because of Will McClay, even though he had a research position until after the 2013 draft.
--We're managing the cap well here recently primarily because of Stephen Jones, even though he's been with the organization since 1989.
--We're doing well offensively because of Scott Linehan, even though our offensive points/series has been fairly steady and we performed comparably previously under Garrett
--The culture improved in the locker room because of Dak and Zeke, even though the culture has been strong in Dallas since about 2011.
--We went 12-4 in 2014 largely because of Tony Romo and Demarco Murray.
--We went 13-3 in 2016 largely because of Dak Prescott and Ezekiel Elliott.
--We went 4-12 in 2015 largely because of Jason Garrett.
--The NFL Head Coach of the Year Award is basically a popularity contest.
--The team extended Jason in 2014 for 6 years and $30MM because Jerry Jones is essentially happy to have a puppet for a head coach.
--The players--including team leaders like Witten and Dez--are very complimentary of Garrett because 'what else are they supposed to say?'
--The staff is complimentary of Jason Garrett because he's their boss.
--The play calling in Dallas got better because 'Jason Garett was basically demoted.'
--Team culture has improved despite a definition of the sorts of players we're looking for being so broad as to be essentially useless. It's a good thing McClay found us guys like Zeke and Dak.​

vs. what I'm saying:

--Jason Garrett's probably a fairly decent coach, after all. He's made some mistakes, but overall things have definitely improved during his time as head coach, even though the extent of the collaboration isn't something any of us are in position to know much about definitively.
I mean, really. It's not necessarily anything personal, because you're obviously not the only poster willing to believe a litany of nonsense to avoid simply coughing up a 'my bad.' just don't expect me to look at the list objectively and meet you halfway, because that's not going to happen. 2+2=4. 2+2 does not equal 6, and I'm not going to meet you halfway and agree that 'maybe it's 5.' The reality is, he's a good coach. We don't have a discipline problem in Dallas, and no matter how you want to try to cut up the credit for the current state of affairs, Jason Garrett deserves his share of it. It is what it is.
 

gimmesix

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Someone that loves pot more than his way of making a living shows no indication that he doesnt love the game? You cant be serious with that comment.

So now they only need SOME of the attributes?

Like I said, if those 3 guys are Garretts RKG's then the RKG thing is a complete joke. Which most people and the media continue to laugh about.

You're like one of the blind men in the parable who only feels a certain part of the elephant and thinks he knows what it is.

Gregory is addicted to pot. Dallas didn't see issues with his locker-room presence and gambled that his love for the game and desire to be paid to play it would be stronger than his addiction. It hasn't worked out that way.

He was RKG in that the Cowboys staff knew he loved to play and was a good teammate. Sometimes that's not enough. The fact that he has these RKG traits is probably the only reason he's still on the roster. Coaches and front offices don't like to give up on guys like that until they are forced to.

It's a lot easier to give up on players who prove to be malcontents like Hardy. Could Dallas have re-signed him for cheap? Probably, based on the fact that no one else has signed him. But he didn't prove to be RKG. He proved to be a locker-room problem.

You're trying to wrap RKG in a package that fits your description of it, but it doesn't work that way. And I'm tired of trying to make you see that. I said that I was quitting before, but this is pointless so I might as well really stop.
 

CowboyRoy

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None of what you're suggesting here I've actually said, of course. I've consistently said Garrett is a good coach. I've never even remotely suggested he's been perfect. He gets credit for the culture. He owns the suspensions. He gets credit for both 13-3 and 4-12, and we know the reasons for each. He owns responsibility for the bad draft decisions; that doesn't mean we don't have an obvious track record of drafting well overall under Garrett. See how it works? I don't have to apologize for anything, because the team actually has been improving. I can take the bad with the good and still have been right about Jason because the facts are that we have a young team that wins a lot and that is continuously improving with a great culture and a surplus of picks and what's about to be a flexible cap situation. And this all happened despite Nolan Carroll getting a DWI and us missing on the Gregory pick or taking chances on players like Greg Hardy and Rolando McClain.

Let's take a step back and look at what you profess to believe, and compare it to what I'm saying. If I have this right. Your position:

--We're drafting well now primarily because of Will McClay, even though he had a research position until after the 2013 draft.
--We're managing the cap well here recently primarily because of Stephen Jones, even though he's been with the organization since 1989.
--We're doing well offensively because of Scott Linehan, even though our offensive points/series has been fairly steady and we performed comparably previously under Garrett
--The culture improved in the locker room because of Dak and Zeke, even though the culture has been strong in Dallas since about 2011.
--We went 12-4 in 2014 largely because of Tony Romo and Demarco Murray.
--We went 13-3 in 2016 largely because of Dak Prescott and Ezekiel Elliott.
--We went 4-12 in 2015 largely because of Jason Garrett.
--The NFL Head Coach of the Year Award is basically a popularity contest.
--The team extended Jason in 2014 for 6 years and $30MM because Jerry Jones is essentially happy to have a puppet for a head coach.
--The players--including team leaders like Witten and Dez--are very complimentary of Garrett because 'what else are they supposed to say?'
--The staff is complimentary of Jason Garrett because he's their boss.
--The play calling in Dallas got better because 'Jason Garett was basically demoted.'
--Team culture has improved despite a definition of the sorts of players we're looking for being so broad as to be essentially useless. It's a good thing McClay found us guys like Zeke and Dak.​

vs. what I'm saying:

--Jason Garrett's probably a fairly decent coach, after all. He's made some mistakes, but overall things have definitely improved during his time as head coach, even though the extent of the collaboration isn't something any of us are in position to know much about definitively.
I mean, really. It's not necessarily anything personal, because you're obviously not the only poster willing to believe a litany of nonsense to avoid simply coughing up a 'my bad.' just don't expect me to look at the list objectively and meet you halfway, because that's not going to happen. 2+2=4. 2+2 does not equal 6, and I'm not going to meet you halfway and agree that 'maybe it's 5.' The reality is, he's a good coach. We don't have a discipline problem in Dallas, and no matter how you want to try to cut up the credit for the current state of affairs, Jason Garrett deserves his share of it. It is what it is.

My god, look at all you have to do to defend poor Garrett. Coaches that are great, dont need defending.

Lets just imagine in your dream world that Garrett is a "good" coach. Even if he was, thats not good enough. My standards are just higher it seems. No big deal.

But in my opinion, Garrett is one of the worst coaches I have EVER seen. Any clown could do what Garrett does for this team. Its the game day stuff that really matters. The clock management, the 6th sense stuff, the pushing buttons with players, the preparation, the accountability that are the most important aspects of a head coach. And in ALL those categories Garrett is one of the worst I have EVER seen.

If you are satisfied with Garrett, you would be happy with just about any coach they brought in here. But by all means enjoy!!
 

CowboyRoy

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You're like one of the blind men in the parable who only feels a certain part of the elephant and thinks he knows what it is.

Gregory is addicted to pot. Dallas didn't see issues with his locker-room presence and gambled that his love for the game and desire to be paid to play it would be stronger than his addiction. It hasn't worked out that way.

He was RKG in that the Cowboys staff knew he loved to play and was a good teammate. Sometimes that's not enough. The fact that he has these RKG traits is probably the only reason he's still on the roster. Coaches and front offices don't like to give up on guys like that until they are forced to.

It's a lot easier to give up on players who prove to be malcontents like Hardy. Could Dallas have re-signed him for cheap? Probably, based on the fact that no one else has signed him. But he didn't prove to be RKG. He proved to be a locker-room problem.

You're trying to wrap RKG in a package that fits your description of it, but it doesn't work that way. And I'm tired of trying to make you see that. I said that I was quitting before, but this is pointless so I might as well really stop.

LOL.....nobody is addicted to pot. LOL It is NOT an addictive drug. He is just too weak minded or simply doesnt care.
 

Idgit

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My god, look at all you have to do to defend poor Garrett. Coaches that are great, dont need defending.

Lets just imagine in your dream world that Garrett is a "good" coach. Even if he was, thats not good enough. My standards are just higher it seems. No big deal.

But in my opinion, Garrett is one of the worst coaches I have EVER seen. Any clown could do what Garrett does for this team. Its the game day stuff that really matters. The clock management, the 6th sense stuff, the pushing buttons with players, the preparation, the accountability that are the most important aspects of a head coach. And in ALL those categories Garrett is one of the worst I have EVER seen.

If you are satisfied with Garrett, you would be happy with just about any coach they brought in here. But by all means enjoy!!

This is a complete sidestep instead of an actual response, but I accept your concession gracefully.
 

gimmesix

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LOL.....nobody is addicted to pot. LOL It is NOT an addictive drug. He is just too weak minded or simply doesnt care.

From drugabuse.gov:

Marijuana use can lead to the development of problem use, known as a marijuana use disorder, which takes the form of addiction in severe cases. Recent data suggest that 30 percent of those who use marijuana may have some degree of marijuana use disorder. People who begin using marijuana before the age of 18 are four to seven times more likely to develop a marijuana use disorder than adults.

Marijuana use disorders are often associated with dependence—in which a person feels withdrawal symptoms when not taking the drug. People who use marijuana frequently often report irritability, mood and sleep difficulties, decreased appetite, cravings, restlessness, and/or various forms of physical discomfort that peak within the first week after quitting and last up to 2 weeks. Marijuana dependence occurs when the brain adapts to large amounts of the drug by reducing production of and sensitivity to its own endocannabinoid neurotransmitters.

Marijuana use disorder becomes addiction when the person cannot stop using the drug even though it interferes with many aspects of his or her life. Estimates of the number of people addicted to marijuana are controversial, in part because epidemiological studies of substance use often use dependence as a proxy for addiction even though it is possible to be dependent without being addicted. Those studies suggest that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it, rising to about 17 percent in those who start using in their teens.

In 2015, about 4.0 million people in the United States used or were dependent on marijuana;3 138,000 voluntarily sought treatment for their marijuana use.
 

CCBoy

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From drugabuse.gov:

Marijuana use can lead to the development of problem use, known as a marijuana use disorder, which takes the form of addiction in severe cases. Recent data suggest that 30 percent of those who use marijuana may have some degree of marijuana use disorder. People who begin using marijuana before the age of 18 are four to seven times more likely to develop a marijuana use disorder than adults.

Marijuana use disorders are often associated with dependence—in which a person feels withdrawal symptoms when not taking the drug. People who use marijuana frequently often report irritability, mood and sleep difficulties, decreased appetite, cravings, restlessness, and/or various forms of physical discomfort that peak within the first week after quitting and last up to 2 weeks. Marijuana dependence occurs when the brain adapts to large amounts of the drug by reducing production of and sensitivity to its own endocannabinoid neurotransmitters.

Marijuana use disorder becomes addiction when the person cannot stop using the drug even though it interferes with many aspects of his or her life. Estimates of the number of people addicted to marijuana are controversial, in part because epidemiological studies of substance use often use dependence as a proxy for addiction even though it is possible to be dependent without being addicted. Those studies suggest that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it, rising to about 17 percent in those who start using in their teens.

In 2015, about 4.0 million people in the United States used or were dependent on marijuana;3 138,000 voluntarily sought treatment for their marijuana use.


Got a comparison of people dependent upon food intake...as individual dependence can be directed in many ways.
 

Rockport

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Someone that loves pot more than his way of making a living shows no indication that he doesnt love the game? You cant be serious with that comment.

So now they only need SOME of the attributes?

Like I said, if those 3 guys are Garretts RKG's then the RKG thing is a complete joke. Which most people and the media continue to laugh about.

Please show evidence of anyone, besides yourself, laughing at Garretts RKG philosophy.
 

Rockport

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My god, look at all you have to do to defend poor Garrett. Coaches that are great, dont need defending.

Lets just imagine in your dream world that Garrett is a "good" coach. Even if he was, thats not good enough. My standards are just higher it seems. No big deal.

But in my opinion, Garrett is one of the worst coaches I have EVER seen. Any clown could do what Garrett does for this team. Its the game day stuff that really matters. The clock management, the 6th sense stuff, the pushing buttons with players, the preparation, the accountability that are the most important aspects of a head coach. And in ALL those categories Garrett is one of the worst I have EVER seen.

If you are satisfied with Garrett, you would be happy with just about any coach they brought in here. But by all means enjoy!!

You hated Romo too so your cred here is lower than whale ****.
 

Doomsday101

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From drugabuse.gov:

Marijuana use can lead to the development of problem use, known as a marijuana use disorder, which takes the form of addiction in severe cases. Recent data suggest that 30 percent of those who use marijuana may have some degree of marijuana use disorder. People who begin using marijuana before the age of 18 are four to seven times more likely to develop a marijuana use disorder than adults.

Marijuana use disorders are often associated with dependence—in which a person feels withdrawal symptoms when not taking the drug. People who use marijuana frequently often report irritability, mood and sleep difficulties, decreased appetite, cravings, restlessness, and/or various forms of physical discomfort that peak within the first week after quitting and last up to 2 weeks. Marijuana dependence occurs when the brain adapts to large amounts of the drug by reducing production of and sensitivity to its own endocannabinoid neurotransmitters.

Marijuana use disorder becomes addiction when the person cannot stop using the drug even though it interferes with many aspects of his or her life. Estimates of the number of people addicted to marijuana are controversial, in part because epidemiological studies of substance use often use dependence as a proxy for addiction even though it is possible to be dependent without being addicted. Those studies suggest that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it, rising to about 17 percent in those who start using in their teens.

In 2015, about 4.0 million people in the United States used or were dependent on marijuana;3 138,000 voluntarily sought treatment for their marijuana use.

I smoked weed from the age of 17 until I was 28. When told there would be drug testing I stopped but it did have an affect when I quit. I could not get a decent sleep for a month. Really just wanted to fire one up but I didn't. After that 1st month of feeling on edge and not getting much sleep I felt fine. Not trying to say this was some big withdraw but will say it was not simple either.
 

gimmesix

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I smoked weed from the age of 17 until I was 28. When told there would be drug testing I stopped but it did have an affect when I quit. I could not get a decent sleep for a month. Really just wanted to fire one up but I didn't. After that 1st month of feeling on edge and not getting much sleep I felt fine. Not trying to say this was some big withdraw but will say it was not simple either.

I believe that anyone can overcome an addiction if they are determined to do so, but that doesn't mean it is easy. Gregory not overcoming his doesn't mean he doesn't want to or that he doesn't love football, it simply means he hasn't got to the point where the incentive to quit is enough to push him over the edge.

It's easy for people to say that if he really loved football, he would quit. It just doesn't work that way for an addict. Most of them have to hit bottom before they start clawing their way up. Many don't find their way out even then.

I think a lot of people look at it like CowboyRoy does: It's just marijuana. But people can let a lot of things control their lives. Food was mentioned by CCBoy. Does anyone think these 600-pound people that are on shows my wife likes to watch want to be 600 pounds? They just don't have the power or enough incentive to break away from something that is ruining their lives/health. Some eat themselves to death rather than making that change.
 

Doomsday101

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I believe that anyone can overcome an addiction if they are determined to do so, but that doesn't mean it is easy. Gregory not overcoming his doesn't mean he doesn't want to or that he doesn't love football, it simply means he hasn't got to the point where the incentive to quit is enough to push him over the edge.

It's easy for people to say that if he really loved football, he would quit. It just doesn't work that way for an addict. Most of them have to hit bottom before they start clawing their way up. Many don't find their way out even then.

I think a lot of people look at it like CowboyRoy does: It's just marijuana. But people can let a lot of things control their lives. Food was mentioned by CCBoy. Does anyone think these 600-pound people that are on shows my wife likes to watch want to be 600 pounds? They just don't have the power or enough incentive to break away from something that is ruining their lives/health. Some eat themselves to death rather than making that change.

I agree. I actually do not think Gregory is a bad guy. I do think he has a problem with weed more than just claiming it is for bi polar or anxiety which he has not but others have.
His addiction is real and unfortunately I think it may be too late to salvage his career. Right now he is looking at this coming season and the following season, I think that is way too long being out of the game to expect him to come back and become the player the Cowboys had hoped when they drafted him.
 

CowboyRoy

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This is a complete sidestep instead of an actual response, but I accept your concession gracefully.

You just have woefully low standards. Not a big deal. Many cowboy fans have been beaten down by mediocrity over the last 20 years.
 

CowboyRoy

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From drugabuse.gov:

Marijuana use can lead to the development of problem use, known as a marijuana use disorder, which takes the form of addiction in severe cases. Recent data suggest that 30 percent of those who use marijuana may have some degree of marijuana use disorder. People who begin using marijuana before the age of 18 are four to seven times more likely to develop a marijuana use disorder than adults.

Marijuana use disorders are often associated with dependence—in which a person feels withdrawal symptoms when not taking the drug. People who use marijuana frequently often report irritability, mood and sleep difficulties, decreased appetite, cravings, restlessness, and/or various forms of physical discomfort that peak within the first week after quitting and last up to 2 weeks. Marijuana dependence occurs when the brain adapts to large amounts of the drug by reducing production of and sensitivity to its own endocannabinoid neurotransmitters.

Marijuana use disorder becomes addiction when the person cannot stop using the drug even though it interferes with many aspects of his or her life. Estimates of the number of people addicted to marijuana are controversial, in part because epidemiological studies of substance use often use dependence as a proxy for addiction even though it is possible to be dependent without being addicted. Those studies suggest that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it, rising to about 17 percent in those who start using in their teens.

In 2015, about 4.0 million people in the United States used or were dependent on marijuana;3 138,000 voluntarily sought treatment for their marijuana use.

Weak minded people sure. 9%? I rest my case.
 
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