Is Lebron the goat?

ABQCOWBOY

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It will never be like that again, the game has evolved to something almost unwatchable :thumbdown:

I agree. My oldest Boy grew up on stories of all of these players and teams, mostly watching Kobe and LBJ etc. He likes watching the NBA still but me, I'll watch the Playoffs but I don't follow the regular season nearly as much. I just hate watching it anymore.

Probably just me though. On the whole, the athletes are better then ever and the competition is probably more balanced but the actual game, I guess I just miss watching the NBA of those years.
 

Manwiththeplan

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Yeah, I don't believe that. I think LeBron would spend a lot of time getting his shot slapped but that's just my opinion.

I guess I would ask, what has Hakeem done in comparison that would give you that idea. Hakeem played great defense, where the stakes were at their highest against a lot of great centers. But he wasn’t used as a perimeter defender. He didn’t chase guards all over the floor. And considering that LeBron wouldn’t guard Hakeem, it means he’s still gonna get a ton of transition points.

Just for comparison, I’m not under the impression that Hakeem guarded Charles Barkley or Karl Malone. He doubled teamed when they were in the post, but he didn’t try to guard him on the perimeter. It takes him away from where he’s most dangerous and helps takes away what they do best.

As great of an athlete Hakeem is, LeBron blows by him if he steps out on the perimeter.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I guess I would ask, what has Hakeem done in comparison that would give you that idea. Hakeem played great defense, where the stakes were at their highest against a lot of great centers. But he wasn’t used as a perimeter defender. He didn’t chase guards all over the floor. And considering that LeBron wouldn’t guard Hakeem, it means he’s still gonna get a ton of transition points.

Just for comparison, I’m not under the impression that Hakeem guarded Charles Barkley or Karl Malone. He doubled teamed when they were in the post, but he didn’t try to guard him on the perimeter. It takes him away from where he’s most dangerous and helps takes away what they do best.

As great of an athlete Hakeem is, LeBron blows by him if he steps out on the perimeter.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I guess I would ask, what has Hakeem done in comparison that would give you that idea. Hakeem played great defense, where the stakes were at their highest against a lot of great centers. But he wasn’t used as a perimeter defender. He didn’t chase guards all over the floor. And considering that LeBron wouldn’t guard Hakeem, it means he’s still gonna get a ton of transition points.

Just for comparison, I’m not under the impression that Hakeem guarded Charles Barkley or Karl Malone. He doubled teamed when they were in the post, but he didn’t try to guard him on the perimeter. It takes him away from where he’s most dangerous and helps takes away what they do best.

As great of an athlete Hakeem is, LeBron blows by him if he steps out on the perimeter.

I watched him practice, while at UH. When I was a kid, the Final Four was at the Pit, here in Albq., N.M. I was able to see those guys play, back in like 83. I watched him match up against Drexler and and all the rest of those Houston Guards, on the perimeter. He didn't have any problems sticking with any of those guys, except Drexler on occasion and Clyde Drexler, much, much quicker then LBJ. Honestly, his problem was not agility of quickness or speed. He could have handled the ball, bringing it up court if he had more experience doing that sort of thing, as a youngster. He was unbelievably gifted, as an athlete, an not just for his size, but compared to anybody. Remember, he only started playing Basketball at age 15. Before that, he played Soccer and Handball. I don't know if you've ever played either of those sports but he was a goalie so he had to be very quick to react, had to be able to move his feet, had to be able to shift his weight, had to be able to have excellent hand eye and reaction speed. Same with Handball. Always shifting weight, chasing down shots etc. I watched him get out on the perimeter and check those guys. His problems were not speed or agility. They beat him because of his inexperience at the time. The reason you never saw him away from the basket much, in the NBA was because the game was different. You didn't have to really defend the three, like you do in todays game, back then. You didn't have stretch Fours that stepped out and shot the three all the time. It was more of a post up, drive the basket, spot up, pick and roll game. It really wasn't because he couldn't do it IMO. It just wasn't smart to send your Center out in space to pick up a cheap foul.

James is not quicker then Olajuwon was. I watched them both and I just don't see that.
 

kskboys

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I watched him practice, while at UH. When I was a kid, the Final Four was at the Pit, here in Albq., N.M. I was able to see those guys play, back in like 83. I watched him match up against Drexler and and all the rest of those Houston Guards, on the perimeter. He didn't have any problems sticking with any of those guys, except Drexler on occasion and Clyde Drexler, much, much quicker then LBJ. Honestly, his problem was not agility of quickness or speed. He could have handled the ball, bringing it up court if he had more experience doing that sort of thing, as a youngster. He was unbelievably gifted, as an athlete, an not just for his size, but compared to anybody. Remember, he only started playing Basketball at age 15. Before that, he played Soccer and Handball. I don't know if you've ever played either of those sports but he was a goalie so he had to be very quick to react, had to be able to move his feet, had to be able to shift his weight, had to be able to have excellent hand eye and reaction speed. Same with Handball. Always shifting weight, chasing down shots etc. I watched him get out on the perimeter and check those guys. His problems were not speed or agility. They beat him because of his inexperience at the time. The reason you never saw him away from the basket much, in the NBA was because the game was different. You didn't have to really defend the three, like you do in todays game, back then. You didn't have stretch Fours that stepped out and shot the three all the time. It was more of a post up, drive the basket, spot up, pick and roll game. It really wasn't because he couldn't do it IMO. It just wasn't smart to send your Center out in space to pick up a cheap foul.

James is not quicker then Olajuwon was. I watched them both and I just don't see that.
Hakeem was a physical freak of nature. IMO, best C in the game. And I'm not a Rockets fan, so no bias here.

James would have a ton of trouble scoring vs Olaj.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Hakeem was a physical freak of nature. IMO, best C in the game. And I'm not a Rockets fan, so no bias here.

James would have a ton of trouble scoring vs Olaj.

He was pretty good, for sure ksk.
 

Miller

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I personally don't think so. Russell, Bird, Magic, Wilt, and Jordan would've owned him in their time.

No. Jordan and his documentary are showing the alpha dog needed to be the GOAT. LBJ is great but when you form and All-Star team, hold a pep rally saying 6-7 Championships and then wet the bed vs the Mavs with Dirk and a surrounding cast, you automatically lose the conversation to a guy who was 6-0 in finals.

As for other talk here...I agree about the league. When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s we would gather around the TV to watch the 76ers, Sonics, Lakers, Celtics, etc battle. This went into the Jordan 90s and the Rockets. Then the league became a weird league with refs seemingly giving games away...Kings/Lakers....and just horrible play besides 2-3 top teams. My least favorite league now.
 
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DFWJC

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I personally don't think so. Russell, Bird, Magic, Wilt, and Jordan would've owned him in their time.
The game (and players' bodies) have changed so much over the years. Really impossible to know.
I'm a Jordan fan and lean toward saying he is, but would only say he's for sure the goat to bug fans of other players
:muttley:
 

DFWJC

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I personally don't think so. Russell, Bird, Magic, Wilt, and Jordan would've owned him in their time.
Add Oscar too
How does someone AVERAGE a triple double? Insane. And way ahead of his time both in size and skills.
 

StuckMojo

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I believe it was in 89 Doug Collins played MJ at pg over a 15 game stretch and he had 11 triple double games, including 7 in a row. Averaging around 32,10 and 10.
 

Yobwocs

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My top 10:

1. Michael
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Oscar
8. Bryant
9. O'Neal
------------------------
10. Lebron :lmao2::laugh:


Honestly, I think Hakeem was incredible. I basically grew up watching him dominate for years, and I felt like Houston made the right pick early on in like '86 or '87 or something. Sure Michael was killing the stats sheets, but Hakeem seemed like the building block to a championship, and I didn't feel that Michael was the type of player who won championships. Boy, was I wrong. Because, he ended up being my favorite player of all time.

I wish there was a spot for Hakeem on my list, but Shaq was just a beast right out of the gate. He was absolutely the most dominant player outside of Jordan for a whole decade.... right out of the gate. I've never seen a player like him in my life.

Lebron is #10 on my list. Dude never stood out to me, no matter what his zealots say. Maybe not his fault because his era sucked. 1984-1998 was the GOAT era because most of the GOATs played during that time, all destroyed by Jordan. Lebron just ain't no Michael.
 

HotDog37

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Jordan was better than Lebron or Kobe. Special nod to Kobe he was better than Lebron.
 

kskboys

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An old timer who watched them told me Russell dominated Wilt when they played. Is this true?
 

jterrell

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An old timer who watched them told me Russell dominated Wilt when they played. Is this true?
No. Russell's TEAMS dominated because they had 4 or 5 Hall of Famers and Wilt played with no one.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=PAGXr

Wilt averaged over 29 PPG versus Russell had to head and shot a higher%.
He was a better rebounder head to head by 6 per game. 28 to 22.

Wilt was the better player. EASILY.

But the Celts won 57 of the 94 games anyway because the team was very complete and the best in basketball.
 

JoeyBoy718

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Something I found interesting. Not including his years with the Wizards, Jordan played 11 seasons of over 50 games. LeBron has already played 17 seasons of over 50 games. When most people try to compare LeBron to Jordan, they say that LeBron has more time to catch up to Jordan. But he's already a year older than Jordan when he retired from the Bulls, and he started his career 3 years earlier.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Wilt played in a time when you just didn't have the big men you have today or even in the 70s and 80s. He would not put up the numbers today he put up then. This is why you can't compare players of different eras.

Dr J. was as good a Basketball Player as I ever saw and he's never in these conversations. Oscar Robertson, maybe better then any of them and he isn't either.

JMO
 

Nav22

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Jordan was better than Lebron or Kobe. Special nod to Kobe he was better than Lebron.
LOL Kobe over LeBron? Yeah, no. That debate was killed like a decade ago. LeBron’s twice the player Kobe ever was.
 

Manwiththeplan

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I think he had more God-given size and talent than anyone easily....and no doubt one of the greats...but I don’t feel like he had a great nemesis to overcome, but rather he ran off to an all-star team to get his first several championships.
I don’t blame him for that but it’s also not impressive. Jordan beating Detroit, Miami, or NYK, even Utah....Bird V Magic...
Those rivalries made greatness. Don’t feel like Lebron ever had those because he was too busy changing teams.
Lebron has never felt as hungry to win as those other guys, and that’s one of the things that really set them apart. JMO

In all fairness, there isn't a single player that Lebron played with who, at the time was as good as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/James Worthy (Magic), Kevin McHale/Robert Parrish (Bird), Scottie Pippen/Dennis Rodman (MJ). Cleveland was horribly managed and really only has had the success they did because they got the #1 pick 3 times within 11 years or so.
 
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