Is Marinelli bringing back the 3-4 defense?

[Crown Royal]

This thread has made me think. Up through the nineties, offenses seldom spent a ton of time out of their base set. You could see 21 as the set for 45-50% of an offense's game, moving to 11 or s11 on third down, or 22 on short yardage situations. It wasn't until the late 90s/2000s that offenses really started varying packages on a regular basis.

Defenses simply responded by going into nickle and dime, sometimes a 3-3-5 or a 4-1-6 package, but the fronts would stay the same. Maybe the NFL Defense is just adjusting in the same way. Rather than any sort of 'base' front, merge them all together. Makes sense, honestly.

 

[BlindFaith]

What defense does not get help by their team winning TOP, SF defense gets a lot of help as well. Colts lead the NFL in TOP I would think that too helps their defense. There are some things Dallas needs to continue to improve on in defense no secret there there are also something like being 5th in the NFL in Ints that have worked out well for the defense, guys stepping up in key moments to make big stops.

Not disagreeing with any of that. But our defense is still below average in my opinion. That doesn't mean bottom of the barrel as it was last year however. I'd put us around 20th.

That still could be good enough to win in the playoffs, but the offense will need to put up more than 24 points to win as I think the D will be getting shredded.

 

[Crown Royal]

Not disagreeing with any of that. But our defense is still below average in my opinion. That doesn't mean bottom of the barrel as it was last year however. I'd put us around 20th.

That still could be good enough to win in the playoffs, but the offense will need to put up more than 24 points to win as I think the D will be getting shredded.

I think it's slightly better than your appraisal, but not enough to argue over. I think they get a little more pressure, play a little better coverage, and are doing more schematically. But they still allow 3rd and short which gets converted more than I would prefer, and I'd like to see them be better in the redzone.

They also haven't played the same calibre of offense that they saw last year, which would help any defense's confidence.

 

[BlindFaith]

Mincey got pushed, but he held well enough to keep the tackle from peeiling off and getting hitchens, which is the entire purpose of the play. Hitchens made a great read and resisted the temptation to hit the B gap, but Mincey held the point well enough that the tackle couldn't peel off and block mincey, which would have led to a HUGE gain.

Mincey isn't amazing, but he's slighly better than a JAG. He would be a very good backup.

I disagree. Mincey's job is to hold the point. If that were Hayden getting pushed like that everyone would be dog piling. Mincey has to shed and get his outside shoulder free. Hitchens needs to read it quicker and fill. It would also be nice if Wilber could have offered up any kind of contain, but didn't.

Bad play.

 

[BlindFaith]

I think it's slightly better than your appraisal, but not enough to argue over. I think they get a little more pressure, play a little better coverage, and are doing more schematically. But they still allow 3rd and short which gets converted more than I would prefer, and I'd like to see them be better in the redzone.

They also haven't played the same calibre of offense that they saw last year, which would help any defense's confidence.

Man, they still give up lots and lots of yards. And that usually leads to lots and lots of points. They have gotten a few takeaways that have helped the score from getting too crazy. But as you said, this defense hasn't faced the same kind of offenses that it did last year. Philly could test us, or Sanchez loses it for them. The Indy game will be a good barometer of how our D will look in the playoffs.

 

[Crown Royal]

I disagree. Mincey's job is to hold the point. If that were Hayden getting pushed like that everyone would be dog piling. Mincey has to shed and get his outside shoulder free. Hitchens needs to read it quicker and fill. It would also be nice if Wilber could have offered up any kind of contain, but didn't.
Bad play.

Very few players can anchor without getting driven slightly by a double team, especially a 1-gap player like Mincey. I understand what you mean as it being his job, but remember that this play was a mix in - the team is not built to run this regularly. I would say that considering the player type and what he is being asked to do, he handled it admirably. You're right about Nick Hayden - but hayden is a 1-tech DT who I expect to hold ground against double teams, and push ground on singles using bull rush and strength. If I ask a guy like Mincey to hold the point while playing 4 tech and protect both gaps, I am generally happy if he influences the tackle enough to keep Hitchens clean.

Hitchens committed the moment the RB did - he was waiting to see if the RB was going to go to B (which he stuttered toward ever so slightly). If he got aggressive and hit it, the RB goes long. If he goes to the C gap immediately, the RB has a chance at a cutback (and the guard likely peels off to carter).

I think the play was doomed to get them 3-5 yards unless they messed it up. We are really not built to run this play consistently. Works better as a change up.

 

[Doomsday101]

Not disagreeing with any of that. But our defense is still below average in my opinion. That doesn't mean bottom of the barrel as it was last year however. I'd put us around 20th.

That still could be good enough to win in the playoffs, but the offense will need to put up more than 24 points to win as I think the D will be getting shredded.

Guess it depends on what stat you want to look at. NFL website has Dallas ranked at 14. I don't expect the defense to get shredded

 

[Crown Royal]

Man, they still give up lots and lots of yards. And that usually leads to lots and lots of points. They have gotten a few takeaways that have helped the score from getting too crazy. But as you said, this defense hasn't faced the same kind of offenses that it did last year. Philly could test us, or Sanchez loses it for them. The Indy game will be a good barometer of how our D will look in the playoffs.

Eh, the yards don't bother me. I knew that was going to happen the moment I heard the word Kiffen. Strategically they don't put a ton of value on defending yardage, especially between the 20s. Which is fine - so long as you have a CRAZY stout redzone defense. Right now, the defense in the redzone is just OK, and is definitely protected by the offense (less chances). A team like Chicago still scares me if they can produce in the RZ.

 

[BlindFaith]

Very few players can anchor without getting driven slightly by a double team, especially a 1-gap player like Mincey. I understand what you mean as it being his job, but remember that this play was a mix in - the team is not built to run this regularly. I would say that considering the player type and what he is being asked to do, he handled it admirably. You're right about Nick Hayden - but hayden is a 1-tech DT who I expect to hold ground against double teams, and push ground on singles using bull rush and strength. If I ask a guy like Mincey to hold the point while playing 4 tech and protect both gaps, I am generally happy if he influences the tackle enough to keep Hitchens clean.

Hitchens committed the moment the RB did - he was waiting to see if the RB was going to go to B (which he stuttered toward ever so slightly). If he got aggressive and hit it, the RB goes long. If he goes to the C gap immediately, the RB has a chance at a cutback (and the guard likely peels off to carter).

I think the play was doomed to get them 3-5 yards unless they messed it up. We are really not built to run this play consistently. Works better as a change up.

Agreed that it was a bad play call and that Mincey shouldn't have been in that position. I don't personally think he should be on the field at all, but I digress.

 

[BlindFaith]

Guess it depends on what stat you want to look at. NFL website has Dallas ranked at 14. I don't expect the defense to get shredded

Hey, I thought we could just use the eye ball test. Stats, shmats.

 

[BlindFaith]

Eh, the yards don't bother me. I knew that was going to happen the moment I heard the word Kiffen. Strategically they don't put a ton of value on defending yardage, especially between the 20s. Which is fine - so long as you have a CRAZY stout redzone defense. Right now, the defense in the redzone is just OK, and is definitely protected by the offense (less chances). A team like Chicago still scares me if they can produce in the RZ.

I've never researched this, maybe someone has, but I'd wager that when Tampa's D was good that they weren't giving up all this tonnage of yardage we all think that happens with a Tampa 2, which we really aren't playing much of anyway nowdays. Good defenses don't give up yards like we do.

 

[Doomsday101]

Hey, I thought we could just use the eye ball test. Stats, shmats.

I am and the defense is not playing poorly and if anything are showing improvement. They will give up a play here and there but hell so do other teams, hell rules make it much easier for offense but by and large when they have had to make a stand they have done so.

 

[BlindFaith]

I am and the defense is not playing poorly and if anything are showing improvement. They will give up a play here and there but hell so do other teams, hell rules make it much easier for offense but by and large when they have had to make a stand they have done so.

I'm not saying we can't improve. Lawrence will get better. Brent could help. Spencer needs to get his shyte together, and if he does, that could be an improvement.

I'm not saying they are playing poorly, just below average. They played poorly last year.

 

[Crown Royal]

I've never researched this, maybe someone has, but I'd wager that when Tampa's D was good that they weren't giving up all this tonnage of yardage we all think that happens with a Tampa 2, which we really aren't playing much of anyway nowdays. Good defenses don't give up yards like we do.

Maybe not, but the Tampa 2 they were running became obsolete as a base defense 8-10 years ago. What teams couldn't do was pass deep on them, which I think still applies to this team.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to get rid of the yards, but I wouldn't call it a leading indicator in this philosophy.

 

[DeaconMoss]

Actually its a scrappy play by Mincey to hold the OT so the LB can stay clean and make a tackle

 

[Crown Royal]

Agreed that it was a bad play call and that Mincey shouldn't have been in that position. I don't personally think he should be on the field at all, but I digress.

I think getting Hayden off the field is a higher priority. I'm not in love with Mincey, and the defense will be a lot better if Lawrence pushes him for playing time, but I would like to keep Mincey for the depth he brings. He's the kind of guy I'm ok getting 15 or so snaps a game, or filling in for 2-3 games if there is an injury.

As a 16 game starter? Nah

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm not saying we can't improve. Lawrence will get better. Brent could help. Spencer needs to get his shyte together, and if he does, that could be an improvement.

I'm not saying they are playing poorly, just below average. They played poorly last year.

I don't think we are far apart I would say average which is better than the last place rankings we had last season. I think this groups has bought into Marinelli system I don't see a lot of hesitation as player are reading and reacting. I do think there is some element of bend but don't break in which yards will be given up but I also think as guys like Melton has come alive this unit is trending upwards. I do think Lawrence getting it going and Spencer will be critical to this unit.

 

[xwalker]

Mincey got pushed, but he held well enough to keep the tackle from peeiling off and getting hitchens, which is the entire purpose of the play. Hitchens made a great read and resisted the temptation to hit the B gap, but Mincey held the point well enough that the tackle couldn't peel off and block mincey, which would have led to a HUGE gain.

Mincey isn't amazing, but he's slighly better than a JAG. He would be a very good backup.

Nice description of that play.

 

[xwalker]

I think getting Hayden off the field is a higher priority. I'm not in love with Mincey, and the defense will be a lot better if Lawrence pushes him for playing time, but I would like to keep Mincey for the depth he brings. He's the kind of guy I'm ok getting 15 or so snaps a game, or filling in for 2-3 games if there is an injury.

As a 16 game starter? Nah

You've made a series of terrific posts in this thread. Don't expect BF to appreciate your efforts. He has an agenda and all the evidence in the world is not going to sink in with him.

 

[Crown Royal]

I've never researched this, maybe someone has, but I'd wager that when Tampa's D was good that they weren't giving up all this tonnage of yardage we all think that happens with a Tampa 2, which we really aren't playing much of anyway nowdays. Good defenses don't give up yards like we do.

Man you got me curious on the Tampa concept, so I went and took a look. When I think pure Tampa 2, I think three teams - Tampa with Kiffin (96-2008), Chicago with Lovie (04-12) and Indy with Dungy (2002-2008). Here is how those teams ranked in YPG during those years.

What's interesting is the Indy/Chicago superbowl. Chicago was the better defense by yards, but lost.

That said, your point is solid. If anything, Kiffin was great about yards. Marinelli...eh.



Bold is superbowl appearance: