Jim Brown

[jackrussell]

Ah...therein lies the rub!!!

Well done.

Child's play my friend, child's play.

 

[The Duke]

With modern training etc. Jim Brown would have peaked at some point. I mean he wouldn't have been 285 and run a 4.35, which is what he would have needed or more to maintain the ability gap advantage he had back then.

The point is that the gap between him and the other players back then was wider than it is today. The modern era has a much smaller gap between players abilities. No way would he have dominated the same way.

If JB was trained and played in the modern era, my guess is that he would not have been great, but maybe a solid good runningback. How many tall bigger type runningbacks are dominating today? The great ones in the modern era are smaller, compact bodies ...Emmitt S, Walter P, Barry S.

 

[jackrussell]

With modern training etc. Jim Brown would have peaked at some point. I mean he wouldn't have been 285 and run a 4.35, which is what he would have needed or more to maintain the ability gap advantage he had back then.

The point is that the gap between him and the other players back then was wider than it is today. The modern era has a much smaller gap between players abilities. No way would he have dominated the same way.

If JB was trained and played in the modern era, my guess is that he would not have been great, but maybe a solid good runningback. How many tall bigger type runningbacks are dominating today? The great ones in the modern era are smaller, compact bodies ...Emmitt S, Walter P, Barry S.

Wow. We've gone from 260 pounds to 285, from running a 4.45 to a 4.35. The scale seems to continue to lean to the impossible. Soon, we'll be to 'Jim Brown would never be, even in today's NFL, a 305 pounder that could run a 3.95 40.' To that, I'd have to finally surrender.

But don't forget to take Emmitt and Walter and Barry back in time, give them the same developmental tools and training, and note they would probably be 160 pounds running 5 flat 40s.

As I've said numerous times before, and others have said here in this thread...it's all relative. You have to level the playing field to even consider it a valid debate.

 

[JonCJG]

I say he can't get to 260 and run a 4.45 because it hasn't been done before. Brandon Jacobs ran a 4.56 which is close but he has no quickness. And he is 2-3 inches taller as well.

Vernon Davis ran a 4.38 at 256lbs but he's a TE and doesn't have the skills to play rb. He also 2 inches taller.

That's how I can say it couldn't be done. Because it has never been done in ohhh 100 plus years of football as well.

With his running style he wouldn't last 10 years in today's football because of all of the big hits he would take.

4.45? I don't seem to think how people think he was so fast to begin with. Anyone have any track times on him? I can't find any.

A 6-2 260 4.45 RB is something I have never seen or heard of.

 

[FLcowboy]

how do you think he would have fared in todays NFL Game?

I think he would have been a good back but not a great one.

He had size and speed, but would not outweigh DL and LB's, or be stronger then them like he did when he played. And he would not have been the fastest player on the field either.

No doubt in my mind, there is no way he would be running over or away from defenders like he did in his time in Today's Game.

He was before his time that's for sure, but there have been better backs throughout the years.

Thoughts?.............

Funny, we had this conversation on the golf course today. We pretty much came to the same conclusions you did.

 

[MiStar]

At some point in the near future, we might have a poor man's Jim Brown walking the NFL again. I am referring to none other than Chris Wells, freshman RB at OSU. Physically, he probably resembles Jim Brown more than any other RB that I've ever seen.

 

[dwmyers]

IWith his running style he wouldn't last 10 years in today's football because of all of the big hits he would take.

But you would have to hit him first.

Does anyone here understand what a freak Jim Brown was in his time? Really? You're talking about an era when 2000 yards passing was very respectable, when the typical running back got about 15 carries a game, when an all pro QB could have a 64 QBR and 15 TDs against 20 interceptions.

It wasn't as if Jim was getting much help from his QB or his receivers. Teams could key on him at will.

There were 12 teams. Most good teams had 2 running backs, each of which could serve as a starting tailback today. But because offense was so difficult, the defense so dominant, it was pretty typical for an all-pro running back of Jim's era to have, oh 700 yards for a season.

So we're comparing backs who get 400 touches in a season to Jim, who was able to touch the ball a staggering 20-21 times a game, for maybe 240-260 carries in a season.

Further, there really is no size difference between running backs of that era and todays. Alan Ameche was 6 feet tall, 218 pounds. Tom Tracy of Pittsburgh, all pro in 1958, 5' 9", 205 pounds.

And it's nice that linemen are fast, because we're talking about the difference between 4-4.5 ypc and someone who averaged 5.2 ypc, under arguably more competitive conditions. 40 times don't count, though maybe 10 yard dash times do.

I tend to think for the RB position, then and now is a wash. The passing game is so different that its much harder to key on one player. If you do, you risk being passed out of the game.

 

[jterrell]

how do you think he would have fared in todays NFL Game?

I think he would have been a good back but not a great one.

He had size and speed, but would not outweigh DL and LB's, or be stronger then them like he did when he played. And he would not have been the fastest player on the field either.

No doubt in my mind, there is no way he would be running over or away from defenders like he did in his time in Today's Game.

He was before his time that's for sure, but there have been better backs throughout the years.

Thoughts?.............

Brown would have the modern day advantages as well as other's gaining athleticism so would he.

Brown was a 230 pound guy with great vision, exlosion and speed. The key is vision and body control and he has those in spades. There are alot of big and fast backs littering the NFL landscape but none matched Brown for vision or explosion except perhaps Earl Campbell. Campbell just wasn't quite as big or as fast.

Brown would excel in any era of football and there is literally no telling how could he have been with today's skills training and current speed/strength programs.

 

[jterrell]

At some point in the near future, we might have a poor man's Jim Brown walking the NFL again. I am referring to none other than Chris Wells, freshman RB at OSU. Physically, he probably resembles Jim Brown more than any other RB that I've ever seen.

./../.thats what they said about that other OSU freshman.

When it comes to Ohio State I'll trust a guy when he proves he isn't an idiot.

I learned my lesson with Tyson Walter, Derek Ross, Niky Sualua and of course Clarett.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Noone is bringing this up but it needs to be addessed. The guy was playing when the league was still bigoted against black players. Just as Kentucky was eventually exposed by UTEP for the fallacy in their bigotry, Brown did the same in the NFL. His rookie year was in the 50s for petes sake.

Now the league has no such inhibitions and if you think that even given the same conditioning, nutrition and training that he would be able to run over Ray Lewis or Roy Williams youre to be sorely mistaken.

Wilt Chamberlain was able to dominate his peers around the same time for exactly the same reason but if you think that Shaq or Duncan couldnt keep up with him youre sorely mistaken. They were completely different eras and not only do you have to take into consideration the differences in the physical arena but also in the discrimination arena. The Civil Rights Act wasnt even passed yet.

If black athletes wre afforded the oppurtunities that they were entiltled to at the time and you got the best athletes on the field of that time Browns dominance wouldnt have been nearly as pronounced.

 

[MiStar]

./../.thats what they said about that other OSU freshman.

When it comes to Ohio State I'll trust a guy when he proves he isn't an idiot.

I learned my lesson with Tyson Walter, Derek Ross, Niky Sualua and of course Clarett.

I don't see what this has to do with Wells. Just look at the film - Clarett was nothing like Brown, Wells, on the other hand, does resemble Jim Brown.

 

[THUMPER]

It wasn't as if Jim was getting much help from his QB or his receivers. Teams could key on him at will.

Other than the quote above I agree with your post.

The Browns QBs were ranked in the top-5 almost every year that Brown played (twice ranked #1) and he had some outstanding WRs and RBs on the field with him.

Receivers like Ray Renfro, Billy Howton, Gary Collins, and Paul Warfield. RBs like Bobby Mitchell, Ernie Green, & Leroy Kelly. All were pro-bowl/all-pro players.

Brown has complained many times that more of his teammates aren't in the HOF, particularly the O-Linemen. Only Mike McCormack has been inducted but Gene Hickerson and Jim Ray Smith should have been in a long time ago according to Brown (I agree).

 

[jackrussell]

I say he can't get to 260 and run a 4.45 because it hasn't been done before.
You ALSO say there's no telling how big or fast he could become today. And besides, who said he NEEDED to be 260 pounds? Ever hear of vision, agility, heart, elusiveness? Can these things be found on a weight machine? In a pill?

Vernon Davis ran a 4.38 at 256lbs but he's a TE and doesn't have the skills to play rb. He also 2 inches taller.

Didn't you, in your own words, just tell us there is no such player in the league today? Ever?

That's how I can say it couldn't be done. Because it has never been done in ohhh 100 plus years of football as well.

You just stated a player who does.

With his running style he wouldn't last 10 years in today's football because of all of the big hits he would take.

Tell that to Eric Dickerson. And besides, Brown quit after 9 years...moot point.

4.45? I don't seem to think how people think he was so fast to begin with. Anyone have any track times on him? I can't find any.

I don't recall saying he ran a 4.45. You tell us the training and diet helps the players of today, yet, Jim Brown would have stayed the same. Right.

A 6-2 260 4.45 RB is something I have never seen or heard of.

Where do you keep getting this 260? You just said he wouldn't get any bigger or faster. And of course, in your 23 years, you've seen and heard it all!

.....

 

[jackrussell]

./../.thats what they said about that other OSU freshman.

When it comes to Ohio State I'll trust a guy when he proves he isn't an idiot.

I learned my lesson with Tyson Walter, Derek Ross, Niky Sualua and of course Clarett.

Ah yes, the all encompassing blanket approach.

 

[Kilyin]

Sunny boy, on a Tom Landry team, Tony Dorsett, Emmitt Smith, and Calvin Hill would have been 2nd, 3rd,and 4th team backups.

Wow, just wow.

:rake:

 

[dwmyers]

Other than the quote above I agree with your post.

The Browns QBs were ranked in the top-5 almost every year that Brown played (twice ranked #1) and he had some outstanding WRs and RBs on the field with him.

Receivers like Ray Renfro, Billy Howton, Gary Collins, and Paul Warfield. RBs like Bobby Mitchell, Ernie Green, & Leroy Kelly. All were pro-bowl/all-pro players.

Brown has complained many times that more of his teammates aren't in the HOF, particularly the O-Linemen. Only Mike McCormack has been inducted but Gene Hickerson and Jim Ray Smith should have been in a long time ago according to Brown (I agree).

Well, let's take a look at the year 1958, which is the year I'm concentrating on mostly, for the time being.

Milt Plum is the Cleveland quarterback. His stats are:

189 attempts, 102 completions, 54.0%, 1619 yards, 11TDs, 11 INTs, QBR 77.8

Jim Brown that year made:
257 carries, 1527 yards, 16 receptions, 138 yards. 1665 total yards. His ypc is 5.9, and this is probably his second best season running in his history.

If he was getting support that year, it was from the phenomenal ground game the Browns had. Jim Brown didn't have the highest ypc on the team, Bobby Mitchell did, who added another 500 yards on the ground. Ray Renfro, their leading receiver, made a whole 573 yards. Eh.

The offensive context was different in 1958 than now. Yes, the Cleveland Browns were a good team in their day. But the rules were different, and Jim Brown couldn't count on a Drew Bledsoe or Troy Aikman going out and airing it for a 60.0 % completion rate and 3000-4000 yards. So what it means is that a modern defense has to spend proportionally more effort on defending the pass, as the pass is far more dangerous. As a consequence, compared to a modern defense, the defenses of the 1950s were able to spend more time and trouble trying to stop the run.

That's the point to be made.

David.