News: JJT: Jason Garrett no puppet for Cowboys

Discussion in 'Overtime Zone' started by AsthmaField, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    Still the same guy... You'll have to ask the guys who called him a loser in the first place what they think now.

    Speaking for myself, I don't always agree with what he writes, but I do a lot of the time and he is much better connected with the team than I am, that's for sure. Certainly more well connected than almost everyone here at CZ.

    I must say, it took longer for someone to come up with this than it usually does. I'm surprised.
     
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  2. LandryFan

    LandryFan Proud Native Texan, USMC-1972-79, USN-1983-2000 Zone Supporter

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    Paging: Mr. "TheRanchSucks", please report to this thread...
     
  3. rpntex

    rpntex Well-Known Member

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    There are a total of 15 players on the roster who were a part of Garrett's first full season as head coach (2011). If you take out the specialists (LP, Bailey, C Jones) and the spares like Harris and Parnell, then you have a total of 10 contributors off his first rsoter that are still around. Garrett (figuratively) started from scratch.

    I'm in the group that thinks it's nothing short of miraculous that it didn't take longer, and that he managed to win eight games each of the last three years is equally astounding.
     
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  4. LandryFan

    LandryFan Proud Native Texan, USMC-1972-79, USN-1983-2000 Zone Supporter

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    We live in an "instant gratification" society, nowadays. If the critics had to live with the same demands and criticisms that they love to place on everyone else, they'd be singing a completely different tune.
     
  5. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    Exactly this.

    Just look at the players he had from his first game as a niner:

    From the post I made above:

    Jim Harbaugh (for instance) on the other hand walked into quite a bit of talent when he started in 2011.

    At QB he had Alex Smith and Colin Kaepernick.

    On the OL he had Alex Boone, Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Joe Staley and Jonathan Goodwin.

    At RB he had Frank Gore and Kendall Hunter.

    At WR he had Mike Crabtree, Ted Ginn, and Braylon Edwards.

    At TE he had Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker.

    On the DL he had Ray McDonald, Justin Smith, and Issac Sopoaga.

    At LB he had Navorro Bowman, Ahmad Brooks, Patrick Willis, and Aldon Smith.

    In the secondary he had Dashon Goldson, Carlos Rogers, Donte Whitner, Madeue Williams, and CJ Spillman.

    His kicker was David Akers and his punter Andy Lee.

    His roster was pretty much set the day he coached his first game for the niners. Not to mention that before he was there Mike Singletary had gotten a lot of the lazy guys out of there because he was being a hard nosed coach.

    So, when Harbaugh started coaching the niners, they had a pretty good culture already rooted in place and the roster was already damn good from day 1. Plus, he got the right assistants from day one... something that Garrett has had to tweak the whole time.

    Now that Harbaugh has been there 3 years, the talent level is slowly starting to erode and there is talk about him losing the locker room and the team just looks... worse.

    Compare that to Dallas with Garrett where the talent acquisition is getting better and better each year, the players are sounding more and more like Garrett as time goes on, and the team has clearly progressed each year he has been here.

    Yes he went 8-8 three years in a row, but the 2011 8-8 wasn't as good as the one in 2012... and it wasn't as good as the one in 2013. The team is getting better and better and that is all because of Garrett.
     
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  6. SultanOfSix

    SultanOfSix Star Power

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  7. JIGGYFLY

    JIGGYFLY Well-Known Member

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    Wow way to be selective let's try that same thing with Mike Smith in Atlanta or Fox when he took over Denver.

    How about McCoy in San Diego or the other Harbaugh in Baltimore and the job Arians is doing please tell me how all those guys walked into more talented teams and have all had better records than Garrett.
     
  8. Gaede

    Gaede Well-Known Member

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    We haven't even made it to the playoffs. I'm more interested in any kind of success than this mythical dynasty Garrett is creating.

    And I don't agree Garrett started from scratch. Hindsight bias says he jettisoned aging players because he foresaw their eventual decline.
     
  9. Gaede

    Gaede Well-Known Member

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    How does him changing the entire roster prove anything? I'm sure Oakland has undergone similar roster upheaval in the past few years as well, similarly having no success.

    We have yet to even get anywhere under Garrett, and all of a sudden Garrett is some future-telling martyr who had to play the cards he was dealt until his master plan came to fruition.

    The reality is Garrett is improving because he's had four years of on the job training. The upheaval in players and coaches proves nothing except he's still trying to find a winning combo. Just like any other coach who has had mediocre results for three consecutive years. It does not prove Garrett is finally getting his way or the dynasty is near. Or he's had a masterplan all along
     
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  10. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    Dude, if you want to make a comparison between all those guys roster when they started and Garrett's when he started, have at it.

    I used Harbaugh because that is the guy most use to show a quick turnaround vs Garrett's slow build. So, if it would make you feel better, consider my post just to the people who have said Jim Harbaugh did it quickly and Jason did not.

    As for the other's, Smith's team is going in the wrong direction. I don't think anyone would want to make that comparison to Garrett.

    Interestingly enough, Fox went 8-8 in Denver until Manning came along in his second season. I also don't really see it as a good comparison either because Denver has been spending big in free agency the entire time Fox has been there and their salary cap is going to be in less than stellar shape in a couple of years. In Dallas though, Garrett has been frugal most of the time letting high priced guys go and spending much less on much less known talent. Garrett has been getting the salary cap in shape in Dallas, while in Denver they're spending willy-nilly trying to get a super bowl before Manning rides off into the Papa John's sunset.

    McCoy has only been there one year and it was 9-7, so only 1 game better than Garrett's first year and I'd wager that his roster was considerably better and younger than Garrett's. Probably not a comparison that would be favorable to the left wing Garrett haters.

    Arians is a fantastic coach, I have no doubt about that. I think he is probably a top 5 guy already. I never said Garrett is the only good coach. Still, Arian's roster was in better shape than what Garrett inherited from Phillips, so it would likely be a similar case to SF.

    Anyway, like I said, if you want to make any of those comparisons, knock yourself out.
     
  11. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    I agree with a lot of your posts on here, so please take my responses to you in the way that they're meant... and that is respectfully disagreeing.

    If you inherit a poor roster you have no choice but to do it the way Garrett has, unless you want to go blow your wad in free agency. He needed to get talent in here while getting the salary cap in shape. The only way to do that is by picking well in the draft, getting lower priced free agents for the most part, and know what kind of guys to look for to fit what you want to do. I don't think it is possible to do it any quicker than what Garrett has done. And I agree that it is the right way to do it too. No quick fixes. Change the culture.

    He has done all of that.

    I agree that Garrett has improved (and needed to) on the job.

    As far as his plan for the team... I honestly don't understand why it isn't clear to everyone. The drafting has changed, the culture has changed. Free agent policy has changed. Paying our own free agents has changed. I'm not sure why you don't see it that way, but to each their own.
     
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  12. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    So do you think that he thought Flozell Adams, Andre Gurode, Marc Colombo, Leonard Davis, Kyle Kosier, etc. were really good players that weren't on the decline and that he did want to resign them? You really think it is hindsight that makes us all say he cleaned house on all the aging, declining, expensive players? Is it also hindsight to say that Ware's 6 sacks wasn't enough to justify his pay or that Jason Hatcher was about to be over the hill?

    Because I think they were incredibly astute personnel decisions that have been widely applauded. Heck even JJT says: "Garrett's greatest contribution to the Cowboys is that he has given the franchise direction. When he took over, it had none."

    So, do you think it has been just luck that Garrett has the franchise's talent level at a much higher level? That the team is so much younger? That the salary cap is in so much better shape?
     
  13. Hostile

    Hostile The Duke

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    Whichever coach you appreciate who made the playoffs, they could have still done it with the Defensive injuries we had the last 2 years?

    I just want to be clear. I think you're living in a fantasy.

    Oh, and as to the "dynasty" Jason Garrett is creating here, I've never said he was, and it isn't created yet if he is. I said I want sustained greatness not a flash in the pan and he is going about it the right way to do that. It still has to manifest itself on the field. Or do you disagree? Last I checked the burgeoning dynasty in Seattle got whipped by us, and doesn't look like said dynasty that hands were wrung about. Last I checked the genius in San Francisco doesn't look so hot, and is rumored on the way out, perhaps to his alma mater in the college ranks. Last I checked the greatest coach not named Belichick is struggling in the Big Easy with the guy we mistakenly let go leading his defense. Last I checked the Eagles still haven't won a thing. Last I checked many other flavors of the day coaches lauded as saviors by the same genre here aren't exactly doing a Jimmy Johnson.

    But that's just my eyes seeing these supposedly imperious teams struggle.
     
  14. yimyammer

    yimyammer Well-Known Member

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  15. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Jerry wanted Callahan to call plays last season before the season was out Callahan was no longer calling plays per Garrett. Not something you expect out of a puppet
     
  16. JIGGYFLY

    JIGGYFLY Well-Known Member

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    Yeah like I thought no way to back up your reasoning, anybody with a passing knowledge of the NFL knows those rosters where comparable or worse.

    Arians Roster was in no way comparable their o-line was and is much worst and they had to trade for a new QB and by the way who is there starting running back?

    You were the one comparing rosters not me so the onus is on you to prove the point and yeah McCoy went 9-7 his 1st year something Garret has failed to do in any year.

    I am going to make this simple what position group is San Diego superior to Dallas in this year or last?

    Oh yeah Fox took a Tebow led team to the playoffs with no big ticket free agents so try again.
     
  17. Idgit

    Idgit Riding the Red Rocket Staff Member

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    There's really not a whole lot of similarity between OAK's recent record and what the Cowboys have done, for one. We haven't gotten anywhere in three seasons under Garrett, except close. It's too soon to say whether we'll get somewhere this season. It looks pretty hopeful.

    But nobody said that for Jason to be a good coach, he has to be the best coach in the league during his first three seasons.

    And nobody said that the best coaches start out great coaches or that some of them don't have steeper learning curves than others.

    And nobody ever said that Jason hasn't made some mistakes that probably cost us games in the last three years. What I will say, though, is he's gotten us close--and kept us there--while swapping out an aging roster, not having extra picks, enduring a cap penalty from the league on an already-tight salary cap, and with one of the absolutely worst defenses in the league. I don't think we should just ignore the positives just because we all agree they weren't positive enough. He's had a tall order in Dallas, and he hasn't done as well as some coaches in their different circumstances during that same time, but he hasn't done badly. We're younger, better, and with a better cap position than we were when he took over, by a fairly wide margin on all counts. And this year, we've got a legitimate shot at not only the post-season, but we've got a team capable of making some noise if we get there.

    Oh, and I probably should say again that just because a bad reporter occasionally writes a positive article, it obviously doesn't change the fact that he's generally a sloppy, dumb, or just plain annoying reporter. Pretending that it does is akin to pretending that a coach winning his first game of the year in week 8 is suddenly a Coach of the Year candidate. Of course he isn't.
     
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  18. rpntex

    rpntex Well-Known Member

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    You wanted to know (paraphrasing here) what was taking him so long. My point was that the roster he inherited was basically devoid of serviceable depth and talent. It took four years just to get the roster rebuilt to be competitive
     
  19. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    :laugh:

    Didn't back up my reasoning? I was primarily talking about Harbaugh who is the main guy people point to when saying Garrett should've made the playoffs right away, and I looked at their entire roster when Harbaugh too over. That is pretty thorough and I think most reasonable people would think I had backed up my reasoning on the subject.

    You questioned other teams and named them. If you want to look at all their rosters, go right ahead. I addressed each team with what little time I had before I had to leave and I made any point that I wanted to on those guys.

    You wanna do more? Do it. If you think Denver in 2011 had a roster just as bad as what Garrett took over, then more power to you. You think last years cardinals were as old, overpaid, and needed as much change as Dallas did when Garrett became head coach? Go for it. But do remember to point out all of the elite players that he walked in to.

    Just don't expect me to read it because I've made all the points on this that I'm going to and spent too much time on what should be easily apparent.
     
  20. Dodger12

    Dodger12 Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot of fail in this post, not the least of which is your oversight of players (on your list) that were either drafted by Harbaugh or signed as a Free Agent. You make it sound like he inherited this talented group and while he did inherit some key pieces, so did Garrett and any other NFL coach.

    Alex Smith is no longer on the team and he drafted Kaepernick. This may be the single biggest event that takes any team to the top, drafting a franchise QB. Smith was doing well for Harbaugh but he decided to go with Kap after Smith was injured and STAY with him when Smith was healthy again. That's a gutsy move after Smith led the team to a 13 and 3 record and a trip to the NFC title game. Harbaugh didn't inherit Kap, he drafted him. You can't just make it sound like the guy stepped into a ready made situation at the most important position on the team.

    Solid group to be sure but if you're going to mention Goodwin in that bunch, then mention that he was signed by Harbaugh and he's no longer on the team.

    Frank Gore had a season ending injury in 2010 and was still extended by Harbaugh in 2011 and Hunter was drafted by Harbaugh; again, another situation where you make it sound like he stepped into a player from day 1.

    This is where you get ridiculous. Michael Crabtree was bordering on bust status and has had his ONLY 1000 yard season under Harbaugh in 2012. Crabtree was a huge question mark at that point. And did you really mention Ted Ginn? He of 12 receptions for 163 yards? Garrett inherited infinitely better in Miles Austin, Crayton, RW, Laurent Robinson, Dez Bryant, etc. I mean, even Kevin Ogletree and Jessie Hollie had more receiving yards than Ginn for goodness sake. And Ginn took a better than 50% pay cut in 2011 to 1 million dollars. Needless to say, this talented WR is no longer with SF.

    And Braylon Edwards? Really again? Harbaugh signed Edwards in 2011 for 1 million dollars and was waived in December of that year.

    So out of the 3 players you gave to support your position, two are no longer with the team.

    Is this the uncoachable malcontent? Davis is in his 9th year and has barely broken 5000 receiving yards. Give me Witten all day, every day. And Delanie Walker? He's not even with SF any longer and the didn't even crack 200 yards in 2011. Give me Martellus Bennett and I feel like I'm going to burn for saying that. I mean, there's not enough arms in the stadium to cover that reach.

    Ray McDonald had had 0 starts in 3 out 4 years with the team before Harbaugh showed up. He had a total of 3, 20, 6 and 13 tackles in those 4 years prior to Harbaugh. Harbaugh kept and extended him and made him a starter; he’s had his best years under Harbaugh…might coaching have something to do with it or is that just a coincidence? Justin Smith is a monster, no doubt but Issac Sopoaga is no longer with the 9ers and no longer in the NFL.

    A good bunch to be sure but Bowman has thrived under Harbaugh but, none the less, he was a good young player. And if you're going to include Aldon Smith in that bunch, you need to mention that he was drafted by Harbaugh and not inherited.

    Ridiculous and I mean shockingly ridiculous that you'd mention this bunch. Goldson is no longer with the team. Carlos Rodgers? Really? He was signed by Harbaugh in 2011 and released after the 2013 season. Whitner was also signed by Harbaugh in 2011 and CJ Spillman was a ST and situational player who couldn't lock down a starting position (sound familiar?). Madeue Williams was also signed by Harbaugh in 2011 and lasted 1 year. So out of the 5 players you mentioned, 3 were signed by Harbaugh and 4 are no longer with the team. That kind of goes against your whole point that Harbaugh inherited some talented players.

    I know this may come as a shock but I'll try and break it to fans very gently.....other coaches churn their roster too.

    I guess it never hurts to add a few more names to add some fluff to your theory but you just might burn for including kickers. In any event, Akers was signed by Harbaugh and is no longer with the team and Andy Lee is a good punter.

    I'd imagine you're probably going to have to reanalyze your post and give it some more thought. Many of the players you mentioned were either signed or drafted under the Harbaugh regime and some others are no longer with the team. So to claim that he started with a leg up on Garrett because his roster was "pretty much set" is kind of inaccurate when you consider that many of the folks you listed were, in fact, brought in by the new coach. In addition, that roster was so "set" that many of those players are no longer with the team.

    They were coming off a 6 and 10 season. I'm not sure how anyone can claim that they had the right culture in place or the roster was good from day 1. I mean, really, that's a stretch and flies in the face of logic. What facts do you base that on, especially when the HC gets fired after a 6 and 10 season?

    This is a joke, right? Harbaugh has been 13 and 3, 11-4-1 and 12-4 in his 3 regular seasons. He's taken the 9ers to 3 straight NFC title games and one Superbowl appearance. So "compare" that with what Garrett has done in Dallas. And if those HC stats belonged to Garrett, I wouldn't give to ***** as a fan if there were rumblings out of the locker room. I mean, who cares?

    I hate Harbaugh and I hate the 9ers. But I just don't know how any sane fan can "compare" these two HC records and claim Garrett is ahead of the curve.

    So we're a better 8 and 8 team last year than we were 3 years ago. Got it. Aim high, Asthma, aim high.........
     
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