Jones quote re: Ratliff's extension

[jobberone]

Come on now, you can just look at retirement age as a justifier for that huge contract. You have to take into account declining returns on your investment past 30 years of age.Rat may have been underpaid but Jerry did indeed take care of him and until I see something showing rat in a wheelchair, the guy took the money and went to his couch IMO. He got upset at Jerry and held the grudge. He'll be playing in NE or something next season watch.

I'll give you that contracts after 30 are inherent more risky but not so much you dump a guy. Also most of those deals are for meeting cap concerns and don't last but 2-3 years.

 

[unionjack8]

Most of the players on that list from the last 15 - 20 years were top ten draft picks and didn't play for peanuts in their initial contract the way Ratliff did. The extension was a mistake and a big one, but it wasn't the braindead move some are claiming.

yeah it was, you NEVER EVER pay someone for past production, just what they can do for you going forward. He was already decling in his play and was physically breaking down. IT WAS BRAINDEAD.

 

[erod]

You think $9m AAV is top money for all pro? Allen makes $12m AAV. That is a third more.

Difference is, Allen actually is playing football, and he didn't get his current deal two years before his last one expired.

And I was referring to the many names on that list from a different era.

 

[unionjack8]

No, people understanding what Jerry's spending idiocy is doing to the team's ability to sign key free agents.

amen !!!
I dont care what he does with his money, but when ita ffects the ability of this franchise to get better due to cap constraints thats where we as fans have a right to be upset

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Difference is, Allen actually is playing football, and he didn't get his current deal two years before his last one expired.

And I was referring to the many names on that list from a different era.

I never said they were the same. Allen is all pro as was Ratliff when he signed that deal. Even the extension Ratliff got was below market value is the point that I am making.

You were trotting out an inflated $9M AAV. I was giving you perspective as to what that is worth for DL. You miss the forest for a few trees.

 

[unionjack8]

add in Ken Hamlin
WR Roy "turdman" Williams extension

There were a whole slew of extensions that kind of flew under the radio because either A. The Internet forum thing wasn't that big at the time or B. Folks for whatever reason didn't see them as bad as what I (and some others) did.

The safety Roy Williams contract extension
The Barber contract
The last contract for Flozell
The last contract for Larry Allen
The extensions for Deion, Aikman, Irvin and Smith.

 

[zrinkill]

I get the impression OP doesn't care for Jerry.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No, people understanding what Jerry's spending idiocy is doing to the team's ability to sign key free agents.

You would think that we would have not been able to resign Romo and Lee or bring in Carr these last two years.

I try and talk cap specifics with people such as yourself but normally you have no interest. Let's leave it at generalities then.

What player are we not going to be able to resign because of Ratliff's acceleration?
Are you suggesting you want us to build through FA this offseason?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

add in Ken Hamlin
WR Roy "turdman" Williams extension

I was replying to another post that mention Roy Williams the WR's bad trade/contract.

Hamlin's contract wasn't a gem either.

 

[Kaiser]

So you read that and spliced two separate thoughts about different eras together into a single sentence that I didn't write? I understand laughing at a post you can't apparently comprehend.

Give it another try, Tonto.

So the "last 15 - 20 years" involves two different eras of the NFL? Stomp your foot once for yes, Silver, twice for no.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I'll admit Jerry has made his share of decisions that didn't turn out well but he's had some that did, too. It's easy to look back and criticize decisions. I don't see any of the usual posters using the retrospectroscope to praise Jerry for his 'good' decisions.

Some of you constantly harp about Ratliff being 30ish when resigned as if that's old for a DL. In the NFL you have mostly players that play 1-4 years and another group that hangs around longer. Ratliff is in the later group.

Here are some great DL players and the age at retirement: (I rounded this off based on last year played and year born)

Joe Greene 35
Curly Culp 35
Richard Dent 35
Carl Eller 37
Deacon Jones 36
Bob Lilly 35
Howie Long 33
Merlin Olsen 36
Alan Page 36
John Randle 36
Warren Sapp 35
Randy White 35
Harvey Martin 33 (cut short addiction and personal problems)
Charles Haley 35
Neil Smith 34
Jason Taylor 36
Dwight Freeney 36
Julius Peppers 33*
Jared Allen 31*
Chris Doleman 38
Michael Strahan 36
Bruce Smith 36

Sure those are some of the all time greats but it does shoot down the idea that you shouldn't give a contract to a 29-30 year old. Part of the problem here is Jerry has mortgaged the future for the present and has never caught up and that forces the issue too often.

As usual the reality is more complicated than just he shouldn't do this or that. And for the record I've been on Jerry for many years letting up the last several as things appear to be improved. So Jerry isn't the best manager; just not as stupid as some would believe.

It really doesn't help Rat's case when the majority of the people you're trying to use by comparison are Hall of Famers or could be.

Rat isn't.

 

[ThreeandOut]

So if I understand the concerns correctly, we should have never signed an injured 30+ year old player with declining production to a big contract. Quick, someone needs to get on the Denver message board to let their fans know that Elway was an idiot for signing Peyton Manning.

 

[Red Dragon]

Well, it's a technically true statement isn't it? Jerry HAS made worse mistakes as Cowboys owner.

 

[jobberone]

It really doesn't help Rat's case when the majority of the people you're trying to use by comparison are Hall of Famers or could be.

Rat isn't.

That isn't relevant. They're just easier to look up.

 

[jnday]

I'll admit Jerry has made his share of decisions that didn't turn out well but he's had some that did, too. It's easy to look back and criticize decisions. I don't see any of the usual posters using the retrospectroscope to praise Jerry for his 'good' decisions.

Some of you constantly harp about Ratliff being 30ish when resigned as if that's old for a DL. In the NFL you have mostly players that play 1-4 years and another group that hangs around longer. Ratliff is in the later group.

Here are some great DL players and the age at retirement: (I rounded this off based on last year played and year born)

Joe Greene 35
Curly Culp 35
Richard Dent 35
Carl Eller 37
Deacon Jones 36
Bob Lilly 35
Howie Long 33
Merlin Olsen 36
Alan Page 36
John Randle 36
Warren Sapp 35
Randy White 35
Harvey Martin 33 (cut short addiction and personal problems)
Charles Haley 35
Neil Smith 34
Jason Taylor 36
Dwight Freeney 36
Julius Peppers 33*
Jared Allen 31*
Chris Doleman 38
Michael Strahan 36
Bruce Smith 36

Sure those are some of the all time greats but it does shoot down the idea that you shouldn't give a contract to a 29-30 year old. Part of the problem here is Jerry has mortgaged the future for the present and has never caught up and that forces the issue too often.

As usual the reality is more complicated than just he shouldn't do this or that. And for the record I've been on Jerry for many years letting up the last several as things appear to be improved. So Jerry isn't the best manager; just not as stupid as some would believe.

Considering that a big majority played in a different era, it was still stupid to resign Rat.

 

[jobberone]

It turned out bad but that's looking at it with hindsight. That's the whole point of this exercise. You pays your dollar and takes your chance. That resigning was driven by factors other than pure football.

If I recently bought IBM stock and now that it took a hit, did I make a bad decision or just not one that worked out well for me?

 

[Plankton]

It turned out bad but that's looking at it with hindsight. That's the whole point of this exercise. You pays your dollar and takes your chance. That resigning was driven by factors other than pure football.

If I recently bought IBM stock and now that it took a hit, did I make a bad decision or just not one that worked out well for me?

The bigger issue was that Jones extended him when he didn't need to - Ratliff was still under contract for two more years. Statistically, Ratliff was a declining player, and it was pretty clear that the extension was not one that was going to be fruitful. He had also been playing through a back injury, which for a NT is as bad an injury as you can have. Taking on double teams was only going to exacerbate that issue.

This is the difference between being a GM and an owner of a football team in this scenario. An owner can fall in love with a player, and want to be generous. A GM needs to look at the whole puzzle, and see a declining asset for what it is, and keep his powder dry.

In this case, the GM failed his owner. Unfortunately, in Dallas, those two are the same person.

 

[Dwight]

So if I understand the concerns correctly, we should have never signed an injured 30+ year old player with declining production to a big contract. Quick, someone needs to get on the Denver message board to let their fans know that Elway was an idiot for signing Peyton Manning.

Peyton Manning's production never decline; but Rats did. That's the big difference.

 

[jobberone]

The bigger issue was that Jones extended him when he didn't need to - Ratliff was still under contract for two more years. Statistically, Ratliff was a declining player, and it was pretty clear that the extension was not one that was going to be fruitful. He had also been playing through a back injury, which for a NT is as bad an injury as you can have. Taking on double teams was only going to exacerbate that issue.

This is the difference between being a GM and an owner of a football team in this scenario. An owner can fall in love with a player, and want to be generous. A GM needs to look at the whole puzzle, and see a declining asset for what it is, and keep his powder dry.

In this case, the GM failed his owner. Unfortunately, in Dallas, those two are the same person.

I'd have to look back but I think they needed some cap relief. I'm playing devil's advocate some because its just not 100% cut and dry. Jerry definitely has his share of wish that had worked out better. A lot of this is hold over from the past esp trying to hold down something that seems to be working so he can plug the leaks somewhere else. Jerry tries too hard for the here and now when he should probably have looked at playing for a year or two in the future and trying to develop some players. This is what happens when you're trying to dig yourself out of a hole.

 

[Fritsch_the_cat]

Well, it's a technically true statement isn't it? Jerry HAS made worse mistakes as Cowboys owner.

He has. My top 5 of all time bad JJ decisions wouldn't include any player deals.

1. Treating Tom Landry and Tex Schram like crap.

2 Firing Jimmy Johnson

3. Hiring Barry Switzer

4 Not making Parcells GM

5. Letting Sean Peyton get away.