Just the stats --- Skins 2005 defensive statistics w/ and w/o Lavar Starting

[Yakuza Rich]

He didn't start against the 49ers. Washington, Marshall and Holdman were the Skins' starting linebackers.




Arrington didn't start when the Skins gave up 36 points against the Giants.

C'mon Adam, don't let facts get in the way of Skins fans sliding a former player under the bus.


Rich........
"Harris wasn't a front line starter"

"Harris only started because Springs got hurt."

"Harris only started because Rogers got hurt."

"Harris was a stopgap solution."

(the countless spins on Walt Harris being cut)

 

[riggo]

C'mon Adam, don't let facts get in the way of Skins fans sliding a former player under the bus.


Rich........
"Harris wasn't a front line starter"

"Harris only started because Springs got hurt."

"Harris only started because Rogers got hurt."

"Harris was a stopgap solution."

(the countless spins on Walt Harris being cut)

rich- a few things about harris. was harris a good player for the skins last year? why did the skins draft rogers last year?

go to es and see what skins fans think of how harris played. he was not very impressive, to say the least. with springs and rogers starting this year, harris might not even be around even if his cap number was less than 2 mill.

dont look at what skins fans are saying now- look at what they've been saying all along about the guy.

 

[superpunk]

Hella good research Rich. I always like breakdowns like that. While they obviously can't tell the full story, as a fan I really didn't think LaVar leaving would hurt the Skins defensively that much, basically cuz Skins fans told me he wouldn't. This breakdown is pretty telling. Thanks.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

rich- a few things about harris. was harris a good player for the skins last year? why did the skins draft rogers last year?

Because they had the 9th overall pick, he was the BPA and both CB's are over 30 years old. Oh, and they also lost Fred Smoot as well.

Rich...........

 

[riggo]

Because they had the 9th overall pick, he was the BPA and both CB's are over 30 years old. Oh, and they also lost Fred Smoot as well.

Rich...........

correct. rogers and springs will start. harris was in insurance policy. and the answer to the first question is 'no'- harris was not good.

like i said, do a search at extremeskins and you'll see what fans thought about harris during the season.

 

[RiggoForever]

Here’s just a look at the Skins stats last year when Lavar was starting and when he wasn’t starting:

LAVAR STARTING (11 GAMES)

87.9 rushing yards allowed per game

3.7 yards allowed per carry

1.18 fumbles recovered per game

1.36 interceptions per game

1 INT per 26.7 pass attempts defended

1 TD allowed per 36.5 passing attempts defended

2.72 sacks per game

1 sack per 13.37 passing attempts defended

6.4 passing yards allowed per attempt.

55.6% completion allowed

68.7 QB rating allowed


LAVAR NOT STARTING (7 GAMES)

131.7 rushing yards allowed per game

4.8 rushing yards allowed per carry

0.28 fumbles recovered per game

0.43 interceptions per game

1 INT per 66.3 passing attempts defended

1 TD allowed per 39.8 passing attempts defended

1.43 sacks per game

1 sack per 19.9 passing attempts defended

5.9 passing yards allowed per passing attempt

53.8% completion percentage allowed

73.2 QB Rating allowed


Note that when Arrington wasn’t starting, Washington faced Kyle Orton in his first start ever at FedEx, Alex Smith in his first start ever at FedEx, and the Broncos in a torrential downpour.



Rich……………

I wouldn't count my chickens solely on these statistics. While I don't like losing Lavar, and feel it was more a personal clash of idealogy then anything else, I don't see any scenario that puts us in doom.

What Cowboy fans forget is that in 2004, our defense ranked third in the NFL, this year our defense was 9th. Lavar missed most of the 2004 season. Our offense was god awful as well, so its not like we were able to inflate the defensive statistics by holding onto the ball.

Gregg Williams has shown that he can field a solid defense year in and year out. We lost Pierce and Smoot last year, which is a much deeper blow then losing just Arrington IMO.

I don't think the Cowboy defense will be any softer next year, even though you lost Glover and Nguyen. Good teams adjust and find able replacements (ie New England)

We have moved into "good team" status after so many years of subpar play.

 

[dbair1967]

Here’s just a look at the Skins stats last year when Lavar was starting and when he wasn’t starting:

LAVAR STARTING (11 GAMES)

87.9 rushing yards allowed per game

3.7 yards allowed per carry

1.18 fumbles recovered per game

1.36 interceptions per game

1 INT per 26.7 pass attempts defended

1 TD allowed per 36.5 passing attempts defended

2.72 sacks per game

1 sack per 13.37 passing attempts defended

6.4 passing yards allowed per attempt.

55.6% completion allowed

68.7 QB rating allowed


LAVAR NOT STARTING (7 GAMES)

131.7 rushing yards allowed per game

4.8 rushing yards allowed per carry

0.28 fumbles recovered per game

0.43 interceptions per game

1 INT per 66.3 passing attempts defended

1 TD allowed per 39.8 passing attempts defended

1.43 sacks per game

1 sack per 19.9 passing attempts defended

5.9 passing yards allowed per passing attempt

53.8% completion percentage allowed

73.2 QB Rating allowed


Note that when Arrington wasn’t starting, Washington faced Kyle Orton in his first start ever at FedEx, Alex Smith in his first start ever at FedEx, and the Broncos in a torrential downpour.



Rich……………

the lengths some will go to to try and justify signing a lousy player are pretty amusing

thats great research, but it probably isnt very relevent because when you look at Arrington's numbers the past TWO seasons, they arnt very good at all (1 sack, no forced fumbles, minimal number of plays for loss, no picks in the regular season)...overall he has had a pretty mediocre career (really only one good season, and one other above average one) and two of the best defensive coaches in football (Lewis and Williams) both hated him as a player...the guy has a penchent for knuckledheaded plays (tons of 15 yd penalties) and is lousy in coverage, plus he has the tag of not playing to his assignments...the 3-4 defense has lots of reads and assignments for the LB, and this ia a key area of weakness for him...everyone needs to quit saying he'd be an ideal fit for this scheme because the way he plays shows he clearly wouldnt be

this guy is a loser, plus he's hurt all the time and isnt all that productive when he IS healthy...he'd be a waste of time here

David

 

[superpunk]

What Cowboy fans forget is that in 2004, our defense ranked third in the NFL, this year our defense was 9th. Lavar missed most of the 2004 season. Our offense was god awful as well, so its not like we were able to inflate the defensive statistics by holding onto the ball.

What Skins fans forget, is that that 2004 defense also included Smoot and Pierce, two huge pieces who have yet to be replaced.

Gregg Williams has shown that he can field a solid defense year in and year out. We lost Pierce and Smoot last year, which is a much deeper blow then losing just Arrington IMO.

But losing those players hurt your defense quite a bit. Even though your offense improved dramatically, your defense fell a bit, rather than improving, as it should have since the Skins had such good ball control. So, in view of that, AND the aforementioned stats on Arrington, can't you expect further slipping?

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Gregg Williams has shown that he can field a solid defense year in and year out. We lost Pierce and Smoot last year, which is a much deeper blow then losing just Arrington IMO.

And if you look at Williams defensive stats with Tennessee and Buffalo, he's had some pretty rough years as well. The Skins signed Holdman and I kept hearing from Skins faithful that Williams knows what he's doing with Holdman. Obviously that was a miscue and if they didn't have Lavar this season, they probably don't make the playoffs.

The key for the Skins is that they must find somebody better than Holdman. If they don't, their defense won't be as good.

I don't think the Cowboy defense will be any softer next year, even though you lost Glover and Nguyen. Good teams adjust and find able replacements (ie New England)

There's a difference. Nguyen hardly played this season and for the most part Fowler and Shanle did a decent job of replacing him. Glover split about half of the snaps with Ferguson throughout each game this year. It wasn't like Lavar and Holdman where one guy started and played most of the game, then they saw how bad Holdman was and put in Lavar for the rest of the season.

We have moved into "good team" status after so many years of subpar play

One good year does not put a team in "good team" status. And I'd say that for Dallas as well. Put two or three years together and then you can tout yourself as being at that level.

Rich..............
remembers Saints fans in 2000 telling him that they were in "good team status"

 

[Yakuza Rich]

the lengths some will go to to try and justify signing a lousy player are pretty amusing

I don't need to justify anything. I'd be happy if they signed McGinest. If they sign neither I don't have too much of a problem. I've criticized the team in the past and don't have a problem in the future as well. I take umbridge with this line of thinking that I'm some Cowboys sock puppet.

thats great research, but it probably isnt very relevent because when you look at Arrington's numbers the past TWO seasons, they arnt very good at all (1 sack, no forced fumbles, minimal number of plays for loss, no picks in the regular season)...

Uh, he was injured in 2004. He did have 17 sacks from 2002-2003 and did it despite never having the same D-Coordinator and being in the Spurrier era.

this guy is a loser, plus he's hurt all the time and isnt all that productive when he IS healthy...he'd be a waste of time here

Not true. Outside of 2004, he's been healthy. He was very productive in 2000, 2002, and 2003. (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187383)

And if anything, these stats show that he has an impact in stopping the run and helping out in getting to the QB.

Rich............

 

[riggo]

What Skins fans forget, is that that 2004 defense also included Smoot and Pierce, two huge pieces who have yet to be replaced.

rogers has replaced the demoted smoot nicely. pierce was good here, but he's hardly been irreplaceable. see below..

But losing those players hurt your defense quite a bit. Even though your offense improved dramatically, your defense fell a bit, rather than improving, as it should have since the Skins had such good ball control. So, in view of that, AND the aforementioned stats on Arrington, can't you expect further slipping?

actually, football outsiders has the skins ranked higher at the end of this year than they were the year before. those stats are adjusted and more accurate.

the skins defensive troubles coincided with cornelius griffin being hurt. they were a different defense with and without him.

"In the 12 games, playoff and regular season, in which Griffin has played more than sparingly, the Commanders allowed an average of 267.9 yards. In the five games in which he barely appeared or did not play, they gave up an average of 359 yards" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/13/AR2006011302031.html

over the 6 weeks of the regular season, the skins were #1 vs the rush and #1 in points allowed in the NFL.



i'd say williams has replaced players lost very well.

 

[Paniolo22]

The way I feel about it, is that LA will have something to prove. That is a lot of motivation right there to lose that "freelance" label. Also, he wants to show his value once again, and make no mistake about it, he is still a very valuable player.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

the skins defensive troubles coincided with cornelius griffin being hurt. they were a different defense with and without him. over the 6 weeks of the regular season,

Griffin was hurt during the first Philly game, the Raiders, and the Bucs game. Those were Lavar's first three starts.

If anything, Lavar being named the starter may have had more of an impact on the defense than the numbers show since Griffin was gone for 3 games that he started in.

Rich........

 

[superpunk]

rogers has replaced the demoted smoot nicely. pierce was good here, but he's hardly been irreplaceable. see below..

Smoot had problems leaving, but he was on another level in Washington. Rogers played in 10 games and recorded one INT and only 4 PDs. I'm not sure that qualifies as a nice replacement. Pierce was ridiculous for the Giatns this year, their defense was on another level when he was healthy against the run. Maybe not irreplacable, but he's hardly been replaced.

actually, football outsiders has the skins ranked higher at the end of this year than they were the year before. those stats are adjusted and more accurate.

Those stats are nice, and they make sense some of the time. The Skins would have received a bunch of extra points for the way they restricted some really good offenses this year. Those defensive rankings don't really take into account how abysmal your offense was in 04 compared to 05, and how much pressure that took off your 05 defense. For that 04 defense to be ranked 3rd or whatever, with the offense they had on the other side, was amazing. There was a significant dropoff last year, DVOA rankings or no.

the skins defensive troubles coincided with cornelius griffin being hurt. they were a different defense with and without him. over the 6 weeks of the regular season, the skins were #1 vs the rush and #1 in points allowed in the NFL.

You also played some of the worst rushing teams in the league over that stretch, and some bad scoring teams as well. We know how bad Dallas was at that point, and Stl wasn't much better, with Fitzpatrick at QB. It was a nice run, but hardly as dominating as those stats suggest. JMO.

 

[InmanRoshi]

All signs point him to Cleveland, but I think there will be a lot of "Why didn't we sign Lavar?" threads on this board next November. I'll probably be one of them.

 

[Rush 2112]

Lot of research for a Poston client.

 

[RiggoForever]

Smoot had problems leaving, but he was on another level in Washington. Rogers played in 10 games and recorded one INT and only 4 PDs. I'm not sure that qualifies as a nice replacement. Pierce was ridiculous for the Giatns this year, their defense was on another level when he was healthy against the run. Maybe not irreplacable, but he's hardly been replaced.



Those stats are nice, and they make sense some of the time. The Skins would have received a bunch of extra points for the way they restricted some really good offenses this year. Those defensive rankings don't really take into account how abysmal your offense was in 04 compared to 05, and how much pressure that took off your 05 defense. For that 04 defense to be ranked 3rd or whatever, with the offense they had on the other side, was amazing. There was a significant dropoff last year, DVOA rankings or no.



You also played some of the worst rushing teams in the league over that stretch, and some bad scoring teams as well. We know how bad Dallas was at that point, and Stl wasn't much better, with Fitzpatrick at QB. It was a nice run, but hardly as dominating as those stats suggest. JMO.

Our run defense became outright nasty towards the end of the year. You can knock St Louis, Arizona, say the Cowboys were not rushing well at the time...but look at who we took out during our final stretch:

Tiki Barber: 1860 yard rusher, 16 rushes, 80 yards in week 16.

Cadillac Williams: 1178 yard rusher, 18 rushes, 49 yards, forced fumble against in Wild Card game

Shawn Alexander: 1880 yard rusher, 6 carries 9 yards, forced fumble against and KOed in playoffs.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Smoot had problems leaving, but he was on another level in Washington. Rogers played in 10 games and recorded one INT and only 4 PDs. I'm not sure that qualifies as a nice replacement.

That and he got torched a bunch of times during the season. Especially against the Bucs who seemingly had his number.

Pierce was ridiculous for the Giatns this year, their defense was on another level when he was healthy against the run. Maybe not irreplacable, but he's hardly been replaced.

Marshall played well in his place mainly because he's protected by some great DT's, Washington, and Lavar along with some good run defending DE's. Putting Pierce on that squad was like putting bass knucks on Superman.

Osi Umenyiora can rush the passer, but can't stop the run to save his life. Pierce was great at helping out there and when he went down, teams just started running at Umenyiora and that essentially took him out of the game.


Rich...........

 

[RiggoForever]

That and he got torched a bunch of times during the season. Especially against the Bucs who seemingly had his number.



Marshall played well in his place mainly because he's protected by some great DT's, Washington, and Lavar along with some good run defending DE's. Putting Pierce on that squad was like putting bass knucks on Superman.

Osi Umenyiora can rush the passer, but can't stop the run to save his life. Pierce was great at helping out there and when he went down, teams just started running at Umenyiora and that essentially took him out of the game.


Rich...........

Its weird, statistically the Giants were horrible up until their first game against the Commanders (even with Pierce in there). After the Commanders game, it seems like they pumped it up a few notches for 4-5 weeks, then totally burned out when Pierce and Emmons went down.

If they play at the level they were midseason next year, they will be tough undoubtedly.

 

[superpunk]

Our run defense became outright nasty towards the end of the year. You can knock St Louis, Arizona, say the Cowboys were not rushing well at the time...but look at who we took out during our final stretch:

Tiki Barber: 1860 yard rusher, 16 rushes, 80 yards in week 16.

Cadillac Williams: 1178 yard rusher, 18 rushes, 49 yards, forced fumble against in Wild Card game

Shawn Alexander: 1880 yard rusher, 6 carries 9 yards, forced fumble against and KOed in playoffs.

LOL...nice numbers.

Barber averaged 5 ypc. His team just got behind and had to keep throwing. Similar situation with Williams, early turnovers forced the Bucs out of their gameplan, but your defense was dominant on that day. Seattle? C'mon guy...Alexander was in there for like 10 minutes....