Key misconception obliterated during the JW Retirement Presser

NoLuv4Jerry

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,633
Reaction score
4,808
To the OP....you seriously underestimate the narcissism of Jerry Jones. At this point....he has no choice but to see it through doing it HIS way. So he would not have to live knowing someone else could do it better.

It would probably take less than 5 years for a competent GM to win 2 playoff games in the same postseason....which is the amount Jerry has won going on 25 years combined. And it would validate what deep down he knows everyone has said....Jerry is the REAL problem. Jerry does not want to have to live through knowing that AND having that validated.
 

Big_D

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,976
Reaction score
15,051
Let me help you.

The job of a GM is to put the right personnel in place to build a super bowl winner. Jerry Jones does not do that. If he actually wanted to win over everything, putting an NFL saavy football guy in charge would be the first order of business.

Jerry wants to win, but his personal agenda is in first place, winning is in 2nd.

If you really have the desire to win, your decisions would coincide with that. They go hand in hand.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
47,192
Reaction score
49,987
To the OP....you seriously underestimate the narcissism of Jerry Jones. At this point....he has no choice but to see it through doing it HIS way. So he would not have to live knowing someone else could do it better.

It would probably take less than 5 years for a competent GM to win 2 playoff games in the same postseason....which is the amount Jerry has won going on 25 years combined. And it would validate what deep down he knows everyone has said....Jerry is the REAL problem. Jerry does not want to have to live through knowing that AND having that validated.
Ouch. I'm afraid you're right.
 

VACowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,989
Reaction score
3,872
I've really never heard someone say that JJ doesn't care about winning he does, what I have heard is that he only wants to win if he can get the credit and that is true.

So you're saying Jerry wants to lose if he doesn't get the credit for winning?

At what point is he deciding he's not getting enough credit and starts sabotaging his team?

When does he decide to start winning again?

I mean, did Jerry decide he didn't get enough credit for 13-3 in 2016 and decide he'd show everyone by failing to make the playoffs the next year?

Has the team managed only two playoff wins since 1996 because Jerry is still awaiting praise for the 90's SB's?

Ironies of ironies, this argument assumes Jerry could win if he wanted to and is choosing mediocrity to salvage his ego. By that logic he loses on purpose so a) nobody will blame him for losing, or b) everyone will tell him how great he is. Uh. Yeah. I'll just show them! I'll build crappy teams. I'll perpetuate playoff futility until everyone recognizes my genius! Sound strategy.

Jerry tried to buy the Chargers before he bought the Cowboys. This does not scream to me I'M IN THIS TO MAKE A PILE OF MONEY! I think the idea that Jerry isn't trying as hard as he can to win is illogical. If he's not trying as hard as he can to win he's trying to lose, and losing football games loses him money as well as dimming the luster of his franchise and a legacy that some people seem believe is the most important thing in his world. Yeah, the Cowboys are and will always be top-three in NFL franchise popularity. Yeah, they still make a pile of money, drive ratings like no other team at any level in any sport and are in fact the most valuable sports franchise in the world. But how much more popular would the team be if it contended every year, or even just advanced a playoff round once in a while? How much more money would Jerry make? How much more valuable would his franchise be?

No, I don't believe for a second that Jerry loses on purpose. I don't believe that he fields mediocre teams, expects praise for mediocrity and then decides not to do any better because he doesn't get any. I'm not sure why Jerry's Cowboys have been so inept in the postseason since the end of the last century, but I'm 100% certain that it's not because Jerry wants them to be. You don't get credit for winning if ya lose.
 

BulletBob

The Godfather
Messages
2,597
Reaction score
1,279
Let me help you.

The job of a GM is to put the right personnel in place to build a super bowl winner. Jerry Jones does not do that. If he actually wanted to win over everything, putting an NFL saavy football guy in charge would be the first order of business.

Jerry wants to win, but his personal agenda is in first place, winning is in 2nd.

My point wasn't that Jones is an effective owner or GM, or what "place" his personal agenda is compared to his motivation for winning.

It was directed at people who claim that all he cares about is money and not winning.

I think he does care about winning above all else. But as has been pointed out ad nauseam throughout this thread, his methods have led to questionable results.

You're saying that "if he actually wanted to win over everything, he would put an NFL savvy guy in charge" is your (very valid) opinion on his methods. But just because he doesn't do it the way you think he should, doesn't invalidate his motivation.

I just realized how ironic it is that I have spent the day actually defending my original argument - in political spheres I often find myself arguing against people who place all the emphasis on their own motivation and that their good intentions should trump (pun intended) the results that they actually achieve. I have officially entered the bizarro world.

Thanks for the offer to help me ... but now I need to go hit happy hour somewhere.
 

plasticman

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,153
Reaction score
17,066
The criticism has never really been on whether Jerry Jones cares about winning.

The issue has more to do with the degree to which he cares about winning when compared to the circumstances under which it occurred. Jerry wants the credit...so much that he is willing to continue as the GM despite the lack of success that NFL GM's are expected to have in order to keep their jobs. Any other team in the NFL would have fired him 18 years ago.....and 15 years ago......and 7 years ago.

If Jerry Jones simply wanted his team to be successful regardless of his part in it, he would have hired a real GM....or he would have done what he should have and made Jimmy Johnson the GM. At some point he could have made Dan Reeves the GM. He could have given full control to Bill Parcells.

Jerry Jones is not capable of dedicating his time and energy towards the specific duties of a GM, no owner could, and it has detrimented the franchise time after time.

There are times when he realizes that he is guilty of abusing his power as the franchise owner and that is when he is faced with a situation in which he has no choice but to admit failure. One example of that was right after the 2011 Green Bay Packer blowout in which the team seemed to quit on Wade Phillips, who was later fired. However, further evaluation revealed that Jerry Jones was taking an active part in the gameplans and player decisions. In other words, he had begun to take over as the Head Coach and that was probably the greatest reason for terrible first half of that year.

The Jason Witten retirement press conference was another. By saying goodbye to Jason, Jerry Jones had no choice but to face his failure over a 15 year span. Of all the players that ever wore a Cowboy jersey, Jason Witten was one of the most deserving of a championship season, perhaps could have been a Super Bowl MVP. However, Jason Witten never played in a single conference championship much less a Super Bowl. That is tragic and Jerry knows he is the most to blame.
 

BulletBob

The Godfather
Messages
2,597
Reaction score
1,279
If you really have the desire to win, your decisions would coincide with that. They go hand in hand.
Ok, so by that logic, then any GM who has not won a Super Bowl in the last 5 years really has no desire to win ... because desire and good decision making go hand in hand, right?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

(Effective) decision making has very little to do with motivation.

I'll repeat my original point - misplaced motivation (money over winning) should not be used to build the case that Jones is ineffective - the presser reveals that his motivation to win is very real. There is plenty of other evidence out there to build the case that he has failed - I just don't think that his motivation to win is a very strong piece of that puzzle.
 

Big_D

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,976
Reaction score
15,051
Ok, so by that logic, then any GM who has not won a Super Bowl in the last 5 years really has no desire to win ... because desire and good decision making go hand in hand, right?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

(Effective) decision making has very little to do with motivation.

I'll repeat my original point - misplaced motivation (money over winning) should not be used to build the case that Jones is ineffective - the presser reveals that his motivation to win is very real. There is plenty of other evidence out there to build the case that he has failed - I just don't think that his motivation to win is a very strong piece of that puzzle.

LOL we're talking about a 25 year window. So yeah in that span if you want to really win, your decisions would reflect that. Not 5 years, not 10, not 15... 25. A quarter century and yet people still defend his WANT to win. lmao.
 

ESisback

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,147
Reaction score
14,028
this is what im talking about, defending this mediocrity to the point where someone will find a 15 second film and be like "see Hes all about the winning" To be fair some of these people believe actors are the people they are portraying.

no, at the end of the day JJ has his playground due to the fans who will praise him regardless of all the bad decisions they think he makes but good for him because he still has his money.

you dont waste the talent you have with a guy like Garrett and sell me a bill of goods. we have seen the height and death of the old Cowboys legacy. Its not coming back anytime soon. You want evidence, watch what we do this year.

Will you be happier if you're right, or would you be happier if you were wrong? If we win at least one playoff game, will you call it a fluke?
 

BulletBob

The Godfather
Messages
2,597
Reaction score
1,279
LOL we're talking about a 25 year window. So yeah in that span if you want to really win, your decisions would reflect that. Not 5 years, not 10, not 15... 25. A quarter century and yet people still defend his WANT to win. lmao.
Nope - just because you want to win, doesn't mean you know how to win ... no matter how long the time span.
 

ksadler1

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,958
Reaction score
5,310
I'm not sure how even the coldest-hearted individual could come to the conclusion that this man is all about the money and doesn't care about winning. His emotions are completely genuine - you can't fake this type of stuff ***

He's faked being a GM for 20+ years. I'm sure he can pull off 15 seconds of fake emotions...
 

Big_D

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,976
Reaction score
15,051
Nope - just because you want to win, doesn't mean you know how to win ... no matter how long the time span.


He should know how, he's seen it done. Then did the opposite putting himself front and center.
 

ksadler1

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,958
Reaction score
5,310
Nope - just because you want to win, doesn't mean you know how to win ... no matter how long the time span.

Then you need to be smart enough to know you're not smart enough and hire a real GM and get the hell out of the way. There's no excuse for a team like Dallas failing for 20+ years...
 

birdwells1

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,827
Reaction score
4,059
So you're saying Jerry wants to lose if he doesn't get the credit for winning?

At what point is he deciding he's not getting enough credit and starts sabotaging his team?

When does he decide to start winning again?

I mean, did Jerry decide he didn't get enough credit for 13-3 in 2016 and decide he'd show everyone by failing to make the playoffs the next year?

Has the team managed only two playoff wins since 1996 because Jerry is still awaiting praise for the 90's SB's?

Ironies of ironies, this argument assumes Jerry could win if he wanted to and is choosing mediocrity to salvage his ego. By that logic he loses on purpose so a) nobody will blame him for losing, or b) everyone will tell him how great he is. Uh. Yeah. I'll just show them! I'll build crappy teams. I'll perpetuate playoff futility until everyone recognizes my genius! Sound strategy.

Jerry tried to buy the Chargers before he bought the Cowboys. This does not scream to me I'M IN THIS TO MAKE A PILE OF MONEY! I think the idea that Jerry isn't trying as hard as he can to win is illogical. If he's not trying as hard as he can to win he's trying to lose, and losing football games loses him money as well as dimming the luster of his franchise and a legacy that some people seem believe is the most important thing in his world. Yeah, the Cowboys are and will always be top-three in NFL franchise popularity. Yeah, they still make a pile of money, drive ratings like no other team at any level in any sport and are in fact the most valuable sports franchise in the world. But how much more popular would the team be if it contended every year, or even just advanced a playoff round once in a while? How much more money would Jerry make? How much more valuable would his franchise be?

No, I don't believe for a second that Jerry loses on purpose. I don't believe that he fields mediocre teams, expects praise for mediocrity and then decides not to do any better because he doesn't get any. I'm not sure why Jerry's Cowboys have been so inept in the postseason since the end of the last century, but I'm 100% certain that it's not because Jerry wants them to be. You don't get credit for winning if ya lose.

He wants to continue to try to win with him as GM as long as he can because he's still trying to prove that he's a 'football" guy.

Ok, name another team that would hire JJ to run their football operations (GM). The answer you should get is none. If he's not qualified to run 31 other teams then he's definitely not qualified to run the Dallas Cowboys.

So the question is does he want to win, the answer is yes. Is he doing everything possible to win, the answer is no because he has someone that is unqualified in the position of General Manager. If he wanted to do everything possible to win then he would hire a qualified general manager.

The reason he doesn't want to do it is because if the team has success people would say that it's because of the new gm and JJ is in this to prove his doubters wrong.
 

TwoDeep3

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,487
Reaction score
17,329
CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
On these boards there have been multiple discussions about Jerry Jones and his effectiveness as a business owner, GM, football man, NFL owner, etc. In most of those discussions, I can usually understand most of the points made from both sides, even if I don't really agree with some of them.

However, it always struck me as odd when a poster would assert that Jerry cares nothing about winning, and only chases the almighty dollar. I always wondered where such opinions sprung up from. Maybe they come from the overall results of the team the last 20 years, or maybe they are influenced by the lens through which the poster views life in general.

With all that said, I think there is a very strong piece of evidence that disproves the idea that Jerry cares nothing about winning.

Just about the 1:09:30 mark in the press conference, Jerry is asked a question about how hard it is to come to terms with the fact that the Dallas Cowboys were not able to win a Super Bowl title while Jason Witten was here.

If you watch and listen to Jerry's response, I'm not sure how even the coldest-hearted individual could come to the conclusion that this man is all about the money and doesn't care about winning. His emotions are completely genuine - you can't fake this type of stuff.

We can continue to argue about Jerry's effectiveness in each of his roles. But after viewing this press conference with an open mind (and a few tissues at hand), I'm not sure some of the arguments about his motivation really hold that much water anymore.

*** SORRY ABOUT CREATING A REDUNDANT THREAD. Didn't see the other one on this topic. Mods, feel free to merge. ***


I liked your comments here.

My point about Jerry is he has been, is now, and will always be a wildcatter. He likes playing the long shots. Go big for big results.

The list of his influencing draft picks over the years suggests he plays the odds of finding a gem in the trash. A guy who is physically not able to produce now, but if he returns to his former self, then he is a steal.

My reading of this is Jerry's constant quest in seeking a level of football guy he has never quite attained. It started with Jimmy and who actually built the winners of the early 90's. Once Jimmy left Jerry's sole goal was to show the world that he was an integral part of that duo, the navigator of future success, and perhaps maybe more importantly show the NFL he belongs in regard to a football sense, and not just an owner sense.

The Hall of Fame for owners is BS. Just because Jerry was savvy enough to negotiate a better deal with TV, push teams to market their products such as jerseys and hats better, instead of sitting on their arses, has truly nothing to do with the game itself, but with the profit taking, which benefits the owners, far and away more than the players.

Jerry's continues run the business side well. it is the building a winner between the lines which eludes him. And the thing he desires most. To hoist a Lombardi, with a puppet for a head coach at his side, so the entire league can say, "That Jerry Jones, what a football genius he is."
 

TwoDeep3

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,487
Reaction score
17,329
CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
So you're saying Jerry wants to lose if he doesn't get the credit for winning?

At what point is he deciding he's not getting enough credit and starts sabotaging his team?

Pardon me for butting in. But that is not correct. Jerry wants the credit, and is color blind to the fact his meddling is what causes the team to lose. He is like a junkie, chasing a high. He doesn't see the slow erosion in the mirror. He is Hell bent on getting the buzz and how that makes him feel. Or would make him feel if he were actually successful in building a winner.

The emperor has no clothes, but believes he does theory.
 

yimyammer

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,574
Reaction score
7,004
You totally missed my point.

I am not defending mediocrity at all - that goes to Jerry Jones' effectiveness.

I am arguing against the perception that he cares nothing about winning and only about money - that goes to his motivation.

I am in no way saying that motivation should be a surrogate for effectiveness (or that a positive motivation should justify poor bottom line results) - the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Of course he cares about winning but only insofar as he remains front and center and can continue to ramble nonsensically to every microphone/camera he can find, do gawd knows what behind the scenes and be in a position to claim primary credit should a miracle occur and the Cowboys win another SB while he's alive and in charge.

I believe if he found a bottle in the ocean and a genie popped out & told him he could win the next 3 Super Bowls but he'd have to agree to disappear from the public eye completely & never speak or do another interview related to cowboys football, he'd throw that bottle back in the ocean so fast it would make your head spin.

He'd probably smash it for good measure so it'd never be a future option
 

Starforever

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,755
Reaction score
5,239
CowboysZone DIEHARD Fan
On these boards there have been multiple discussions about Jerry Jones and his effectiveness as a business owner, GM, football man, NFL owner, etc. In most of those discussions, I can usually understand most of the points made from both sides, even if I don't really agree with some of them.

However, it always struck me as odd when a poster would assert that Jerry cares nothing about winning, and only chases the almighty dollar. I always wondered where such opinions sprung up from. Maybe they come from the overall results of the team the last 20 years, or maybe they are influenced by the lens through which the poster views life in general.

With all that said, I think there is a very strong piece of evidence that disproves the idea that Jerry cares nothing about winning.

Just about the 1:09:30 mark in the press conference, Jerry is asked a question about how hard it is to come to terms with the fact that the Dallas Cowboys were not able to win a Super Bowl title while Jason Witten was here.

If you watch and listen to Jerry's response, I'm not sure how even the coldest-hearted individual could come to the conclusion that this man is all about the money and doesn't care about winning. His emotions are completely genuine - you can't fake this type of stuff.

We can continue to argue about Jerry's effectiveness in each of his roles. But after viewing this press conference with an open mind (and a few tissues at hand), I'm not sure some of the arguments about his motivation really hold that much water anymore.

*** SORRY ABOUT CREATING A REDUNDANT THREAD. Didn't see the other one on this topic. Mods, feel free to merge. ***

I hear you, I love my wife dearly even when I am with the other woman, said the faithful husband tearfully.
 
Top