La’el ejection play clarification

[MarcusRock]

I'm still wondering why "replay 3rd down" wasn't announced. Or why the rule doesn't state it's a replay of down.

Probably because it falls under the "Fouls by Both Teams" umbrella, where it says as part of the over-arching rule that "the down is replayed at the previous spot." The exception is also previous spot.

 

[CowboyFrog]

The rule I posted says double foul "during a down," not during a play.

Wouldnt it have dead ball langauge though to show its the diference during whistle and after....just seems odd thats how they would word it to cover dead ball fouls.

 

[Runwildboys]

You're right that is how they applied the penalties, but exception to is very precise in saying "Dead Ball Foul for delay of game for spiking the ball" which is not what happened. I am not looking for anything nefarious, and to say that the rules book is not a convoluted mess would be an understatement, but the way they applied the fouls was different from another time I have seen two similar fouls called.

The "spiking the ball" clause is irrelevant to this discussion. That's an exception to the exception...or something like that.

 

[MarcusRock]

I agree with Loublue as it is exactly my interpretation of it as well.

And to Marcus' claim, it is possible for refs to make a mistake without it being a we "wuz robbed conspiracy". That is my take on it, and sounds like Loublue's as well.

Of course refs can make a mistake. Remember the 12 men in the huddle penalty on Butler in the 2016 playoff game that people like attaching "spiracy to? The ref misspoke there. He should have said it was an unsportsmanlike conduct substitution, which Butler DID violate. 12 men in the huddle is a dead ball foul and called immediately, before the play happens. The key is there was something in the rule book that described the scenario to back it up as well as the enforcement of the penalty. That's all I'm asking for here. If you're saying it should have worked a different way, show me via the rules. No one will do that and just repeats, "I think," "I think." I found a rule that describes exactly what happened and what was enforced. Why can't the dissenters?

 

[MarcusRock]

Wouldnt it have dead ball langauge though to show its the diference during whistle and after....just seems odd thats how they would word it to cover dead ball fouls.

Here is the complete rule again with all exceptions. It calls out Live Ball fouls with Dead Ball fouls and the like in the exceptions. In Exception 1, it only states 15-yard penalties vs. 5-yard penalties. There can be Live Ball (Roughing the Passer) or Dead Ball (Personal Foul) Fouls that are 15 yard penalties. So if Live Ball / Dead Ball are mentioned by name in later Exception scenarios, then it is all-inclusive where you only mention yardage in this Exception, right? I mean, it's just logical.

RULE 14
SECTION 5 FOULS BY BOTH TEAMS (DOUBLE FOULS)
ARTICLE 1. DOUBLE FOUL WITHOUT CHANGE OF POSSESSION. If there is a Double Foul (3-14-1-e) during a down in which
there is not a change of possession, the penalties are offset, and the down is replayed at the previous spot. If it is a scrimmage
down, the number of the next down and the line to gain is the same as for the down in which the fouls occurred.

Exceptions:
(1) If one or more fouls by one team includes a 15-yard penalty, and the penalty for the foul or fouls committed by the other
team is for a five-yard penalty without an automatic First Down, a loss of down, or a 10-second runoff (15 yards versus
five yards), or that is not a spot foul, the 15-yard penalty is enforced from the previous spot, and the five-yard penalty is
disregarded. Five vs. 15 enforcement cannot be declined by the team that committed the minor foul, except as described
in (2) below. See 4-8-2-h and 14-4-9-Item 3-Exc. 1 for dead ball fouls at the end of a half.

(2) If one of the fouls is a Dead Ball Foul for delay of game for spiking the ball and the opponent’s foul is a Live Ball Foul,
the team that committed the delay of game foul, in addition to Article 1 above, will have the option to decline the foul
committed by its opponent and be assessed the penalty for delay from the dead-ball spot.

(3) If both fouls are Dead Ball Fouls or are treated as such (14-4-9), the penalties are offset, and the ball is next put in play
at the succeeding spot, unless the Dead Ball fouls occur after the ball has been made ready for play, in which case 5 vs.
15 enforcement applies.​

 

[loublue22]

What if a fan ran onto the field and stole the ball with under 2 minutes left in the half? Yeah, not sure because it didn't happen, nor am I claiming it did. Same for your question. If you think it was the wrong call, how about you prove your own claim? I'm able to prove mine. You can say it didn't apply all you want but a 15-yard penalty and a 5-yard penalty did occur and there are rules for that sort of thing.

Nice red herring. My argument is that Collins throwing a punch before or after the offsides is announced is the same scenario, in terms of enforcement. The hypothetical scenario of him throwing the punch after is therefore relevant.

It simply does not make sense that a live ball penalty on the other team would force a dead ball penalty on Dallas, committed after the play, to be enforced as a live ball penalty. Which is exactly what happened. They are separate, which is why there is no specific rule.

 

[Cowpolk]

Nice red herring. My argument is that Collins throwing a punch before or after the offsides is announced is the same scenario, in terms of enforcement. The hypothetical scenario of him throwing the punch after is therefore relevant.

It simply does not make sense that a live ball penalty on the other team would force a dead ball penalty on Dallas, committed after the play, to be enforced as a live ball penalty. Which is exactly what happened. They are separate, which is why there is no specific rule.

I wish he had knocked him out

 

[CowboyFrog]

Here is the complete rule again with all exceptions. It calls out Live Ball fouls with Dead Ball fouls and the like in the exceptions. In Exception 1, it only states 15-yard penalties vs. 5-yard penalties. There can be Live Ball (Roughing the Passer) or Dead Ball (Personal Foul) Fouls that are 15 yard penalties. So if Live Ball / Dead Ball are mentioned by name in later Exception scenarios, then it is all-inclusive where you only mention yardage in this Exception, right? I mean, it's just logical.

RULE 14
SECTION 5 FOULS BY BOTH TEAMS (DOUBLE FOULS)
ARTICLE 1. DOUBLE FOUL WITHOUT CHANGE OF POSSESSION. If there is a Double Foul (3-14-1-e) during a down in which
there is not a change of possession, the penalties are offset, and the down is replayed at the previous spot. If it is a scrimmage
down, the number of the next down and the line to gain is the same as for the down in which the fouls occurred.

Exceptions:
(1) If one or more fouls by one team includes a 15-yard penalty, and the penalty for the foul or fouls committed by the other
team is for a five-yard penalty without an automatic First Down, a loss of down, or a 10-second runoff (15 yards versus
five yards), or that is not a spot foul, the 15-yard penalty is enforced from the previous spot, and the five-yard penalty is
disregarded. Five vs. 15 enforcement cannot be declined by the team that committed the minor foul, except as described
in (2) below. See 4-8-2-h and 14-4-9-Item 3-Exc. 1 for dead ball fouls at the end of a half.

(2) If one of the fouls is a Dead Ball Foul for delay of game for spiking the ball and the opponent’s foul is a Live Ball Foul,
the team that committed the delay of game foul, in addition to Article 1 above, will have the option to decline the foul
committed by its opponent and be assessed the penalty for delay from the dead-ball spot.

(3) If both fouls are Dead Ball Fouls or are treated as such (14-4-9), the penalties are offset, and the ball is next put in play
at the succeeding spot, unless the Dead Ball fouls occur after the ball has been made ready for play, in which case 5 vs.
15 enforcement applies.​

I mean its stil not spelled out maybe I'm missing it, says a Deadball foul for delay of game...thats pretty specific to delay of game. Most dead ball fouls are enforced from the down after the play, again maybe I'm missing where it says "IF its a dead ball personal foul it erases the play before and yardage is 15 vs 5 rule from the previous down and spot.

 

[MarcusRock]

I mean its stil not spelled out maybe I'm missing it, says a Deadball foul for delay of game...thats pretty specific to delay of game. Most dead ball fouls are enforced from the down after the play, again maybe I'm missing where it says "IF its a dead ball personal foul it erases the play before and yardage is 15 vs 5 rule from the previous down and spot.

That's just it. There is no distinction made in Exception 1. It only mentions penalty yardage 5 vs. 15. If a 15er can be Live or Dead then this language is all-inclusive and falls under what happened yesterday. I keep asking if a rule out there is better but I haven't seen it nor has anyone attempted to show it.

 

[CowboyFrog]

That's just it. There is no distinction made in Exception 1. It only mentions penalty yardage 5 vs. 15. If a 15er can be Live or Dead then this language is all-inclusive and falls under what happened yesterday. I keep asking if a rule out there is better but I haven't seen it nor has anyone attempted to show it.

I get what your saying, again I was under the impression all dead ball fouls went off the down and spot of the play before...I could be wrong but i certainly see why people have questions on it.

 

[KeepinTime]

Will Zeke get suspended?

He will if Mara has any say in the matter.

 

[MarcusRock]

Nice red herring. My argument is that Collins throwing a punch before or after the offsides is announced is the same scenario, in terms of enforcement. The hypothetical scenario of him throwing the punch after is therefore relevant.

It simply does not make sense that a live ball penalty on the other team would force a dead ball penalty on Dallas, committed after the play, to be enforced as a live ball penalty. Which is exactly what happened. They are separate, which is why there is no specific rule.

Your answer is probably in the rule book, but you said you don't want to go looking there so I guess you'll never find out if something exists or not. I found what covers what happened yesterday so if you're claiming different, let's see it. We won't though, will we?

 

[loublue22]

Your answer is probably in the rule book, but you said you don't want to go looking there so I guess you'll never find out if something exists or not. I found what covers what happened yesterday so if you're claiming different, let's see it. We won't though, will we?

I dont agree

 

[Creeper]

I'm not pushing any conspiracy other than refs are dumb. You have not responded to the content of my argument, you just keep referring to rules that don't describe the situation and asking us to "interpret".

Again, what if the offsides was announced and then Collins threw a punch?

The rule book considers dead ball fouls that are a "continuation" of the play and those that occur between plays. The Collins fouls was a continuation of the play. A foul occurring as you asked in your question would be in between plays and would be walked off as if it was a pre-snap penalty. In this case it would have been 1st and 25 for Dallas.

 

[Creeper]

Exception 1 is referring to two live ball penalties, and is not relevant. Exception 2 refers to a very specific situation involving a delay of game, and is not relevant. Example three involves two dead ball penalties, and is not relevant.

I'm not going to look through the rule book, but I suspect you are not finding a rule for this situation because there doesn't need to be one. The penalties are separate, they just happened to be announced at the same time. The pass was marked as completed, and Dallas was given a first down. The play is over. WFT was offsides, which is declined. AFTER the play, Collins throws a punch. This, like all dead ball penalties, is enforced from the end of play, and after down and distance are determined. It is only happenstance that Collins threw a punch before the offsides was announced. The ref incorrectly conflated the penalties, when in fact they are sequential and unrelated. Again, dead ball is dead ball.

This is from Section 4, Article 9 DEAD BALL FOUL AND FOUL BETWEEN DOWNS, under exceptions:

Item 3. Live Ball and Dead Ball Fouls. Live Ball Fouls and Dead Ball Fouls combine to create Double Fouls or Multiple Fouls, and all customary rules for enforcement apply.

This is why they treated the two fouls which occurred during and after the play as a double foul. It might not make sense but it is the rule.

 

[BermyStar]

It seems like they make up **** as they go. Should've probably been a late hit personal foul on WFT, and even with Collins' fight, it was after the play so it should've been tacked on after the 1st. Should've been 1st and 25 IMO, but who the F knows.

Truth is it shouldn't have been a flag on WFT (maybe if it were Brady lol). The play wasn't outside of the rules, but it broke an unwritten rule. He knew the hit on the QB was entirely uneccesarry... so Zeke & LC made sure to let him know it wouldn't happen again.