La’el ejection play clarification

[Proof]

Let me pull a rabbit out of my hat real quick. A personal foul after the play means the play still stands. An unsportsmanlike conduct after the play negates the play all together.

Comprende?

There is most definitely a distinction:

Dead Ball Foul is a foul that occurs in the continuing action
after a down ends,....The penalty for a Dead Ball Foul is enforced from the succeeding

spot, and the down counts.​

The ref said the penalty occurred after the play, i.e. after the down ended. The play should have counted (first down unless they reversed the ruling on the field which is not the case if you look at the play-by-play description on ESPN and the NFL app). [/QUOTE]


yeah, still hung up on this myself.

 

[TheHerd]

You're right that is how they applied the penalties, but exception to is very precise in saying "Dead Ball Foul for delay of game for spiking the ball" which is not what happened. I am not looking for anything nefarious, and to say that the rules book is not a convoluted mess would be an understatement, but the way they applied the fouls was different from another time I have seen two similar fouls called.

The rule book is a mess by design. It allows exactly the sort of analysis we are doing right now, and allows the league to apply rules in different circumstances.

 

[Bigtex67]

This is the crux of the problem: there is no consistency with officiating. The Cowboys won today so I will forget about this call. But someday a mistake like this is going to cost a game. In that case, instead of the standard apology, teams should be rewarded something more when errors like this are made. Like a compensatory draft pick (yes, I'm being serious).

Except the league would then say to the Cowboys...well you actually should have won that game so your record would be better.....better change your draft order to match what your record should have been......

 

[droopdog7]

For the record, I don’t think it was a dirty play. I understand why the five yard penalty was disregarded (though not sure why the rule exists), but still don’t know why it was third down. I too posted during the game thread when it happened.

But I’m not assuming the refs got it wrong. I just don’t know the rule.

 

[Bullet22]

Collins was defeating his QB....another bad call by the refs..

 

[Creeper]

RULE 14
SECTION 5 FOULS BY BOTH TEAMS (DOUBLE FOULS)
ARTICLE 1. DOUBLE FOUL WITHOUT CHANGE OF POSSESSION. If there is a Double Foul (3-14-1-e) during a down in which
there is not a change of possession, the penalties are offset, and the down is replayed at the previous spot. If it is a scrimmage
down, the number of the next down and the line to gain is the same as for the down in which the fouls occurred.

Exceptions:

(1) If one or more fouls by one team includes a 15-yard penalty, and the penalty for the foul or fouls committed by the other
team is for a five-yard penalty without an automatic First Down, a loss of down, or a 10-second runoff (15 yards versus
five yards), or that is not a spot foul, the 15-yard penalty is enforced from the previous spot, and the five-yard penalty is
disregarded. Five vs. 15 enforcement cannot be declined by the team that committed the minor foul, except as described
in (2) below. See 4-8-2-h and 14-4-9-Item 3-Exc. 1 for dead ball fouls at the end of a half.​

Another weird quirk in the NFL rulebook. If Washington was not offsides, Dallas would have gotten the first down 15 yards back from where the play ended and the ball was spotted. But because Washington committed a 5 yard penalty, not an automatic first down, the first down is negated and the 5 yard penalty ignored. This makes not sense. They should enforce both penalties, or allow Dallas to decline the 5 yard penalty and take the 1st down, then move them back 15 yards.

 

[cowboyed]

Yes, Mara is making that decision now as we speak.

Considering the shape Zeke is in due to nagging injury it won't make much difference.

 

[MarcusRock]

You're right that is how they applied the penalties, but exception to is very precise in saying "Dead Ball Foul for delay of game for spiking the ball" which is not what happened. I am not looking for anything nefarious, and to say that the rules book is not a convoluted mess would be an understatement, but the way they applied the fouls was different from another time I have seen two similar fouls called.

That's right, it's not what happened which is why the spike has its own exception. What did happen was a 15 (any 15) vs. 5 situation, which is accounted for. The fact that a Dead Ball foul is pointed out in successive exceptions means that was all accounted for when Exception 1 was written and therefore must include ALL types of fouls. During a play, after a play, or a combination thereof.

If you've seen this applied a different way before, then when was it so I can look it up?

 

[MarcusRock]

Another weird quirk in the NFL rulebook. If Washington was not offsides, Dallas would have gotten the first down 15 yards back from where the play ended and the ball was spotted. But because Washington committed a 5 yard penalty, not an automatic first down, the first down is negated and the 5 yard penalty ignored. This makes not sense. They should enforce both penalties, or allow Dallas to decline the 5 yard penalty and take the 1st down, then move them back 15 yards.

I can get with some sort of double enforcement that works out to a "net penalty," but any option of declining or choosing enforcement should rest with the team that committed the lesser offense. In this situation, in no way should a team be in the driver's seat of choosing what's most advantageous to them after punching another team's player. I think this is why the 5 vs. 15 rule exists in the first place.

 

[loublue22]

Another weird quirk in the NFL rulebook. If Washington was not offsides, Dallas would have gotten the first down 15 yards back from where the play ended and the ball was spotted. But because Washington committed a 5 yard penalty, not an automatic first down, the first down is negated and the 5 yard penalty ignored. This makes not sense. They should enforce both penalties, or allow Dallas to decline the 5 yard penalty and take the 1st down, then move them back 15 yards.

It's not a quirk, he's reading the rulebook wrong. The ref incorrectly invoked the rule regarding 5 vs 15 yard penalties, it does not apply when the 15 yard is dead ball. What if Collins had thrown a punch after the offsides was announced and declined, but still before the next play? It's still dead ball, and of course the previous live ball penalty wouldn't matter. Dead ball is dead ball, it's separate from live ball penalties. The correct call from the ref would have been:

"Ruling on the field is a completed catch resulting in a first down. During the play, offsides defense # whatever, that penalty is declined. After the play, personal foul offense #71, penalty is 15 yards from the end of the play, 1st and 10 Dallas. #71 is disqualified."

 

[MarcusRock]

It's not a quirk, he's reading the rulebook wrong. The ref incorrectly invoked the rule regarding 5 vs 15 yard penalties, it does not apply when the 15 yard is dead ball. What if Collins had thrown a punch after the offsides was announced and declined, but still before the next play? It's still dead ball, and of course the previous live ball penalty wouldn't matter. Dead ball is dead ball, it's separate from live ball penalties. The correct call from the ref would have been:

"Ruling on the field is a completed catch resulting in a first down. During the play, offsides defense # whatever, that penalty is declined. After the play, personal foul offense #71, penalty is 15 yards from the end of the play, 1st and 10 Dallas. #71 is disqualified."

No, you're wrong. Show from the rules where 5 vs. 15 doesn't apply when one foul is a Dead Ball Foul.

The exceptions for offsetting fouls take Dead Ball and Live Ball vs. Dead Ball fouls into account. The exception for this play makes no distinction because they are accounted for in later exceptions. The one that applies only mentions the yardage and nothing else. It is all-inclusive, Live or Dead Ball. Show me different. I'll wait.

Exceptions:
(1) If one or more fouls by one team includes a 15-yard penalty, and the penalty for the foul or fouls committed by the other
team is for a five-yard penalty without an automatic First Down, a loss of down, or a 10-second runoff (15 yards versus
five yards), or that is not a spot foul, the 15-yard penalty is enforced from the previous spot, and the five-yard penalty is
disregarded. Five vs. 15 enforcement cannot be declined by the team that committed the minor foul, except as described
in (2) below. See 4-8-2-h and 14-4-9-Item 3-Exc. 1 for dead ball fouls at the end of a half.

(2) If one of the fouls is a Dead Ball Foul for delay of game for spiking the ball and the opponent’s foul is a Live Ball Foul,
the team that committed the delay of game foul, in addition to Article 1 above, will have the option to decline the foul
committed by its opponent and be assessed the penalty for delay from the dead-ball spot.

(3) If both fouls are Dead Ball Fouls or are treated as such (14-4-9), the penalties are offset, and the ball is next put in play
at the succeeding spot, unless the Dead Ball fouls occur after the ball has been made ready for play, in which case 5 vs.
15 enforcement applies.​

 

[Nav22]

It was either the wrong call, or it was the right call but it’s a TERRIBLE rule.

Why should Washington’s 5-yard penalty wind up helping them?

 

[Cowpolk]

It was a clean legal hit, you didn't watch the game, stupid reaction on LC part, no need for that in the game.

You are right I have never watched or played in a game dam I am so ashamed of myself

 

[loublue22]

No, you're wrong. Show from the rules where 5 vs. 15 doesn't apply when one foul is a Dead Ball Foul.

The exceptions for offsetting fouls take Dead Ball and Live Ball vs. Dead Ball fouls into account. The exception for this play makes no distinction because they are accounted for in later exceptions. The one that applies only mentions the yardage and nothing else. It is all-inclusive, Live or Dead Ball. Show me different. I'll wait.

Exceptions:
(1) If one or more fouls by one team includes a 15-yard penalty, and the penalty for the foul or fouls committed by the other
team is for a five-yard penalty without an automatic First Down, a loss of down, or a 10-second runoff (15 yards versus
five yards), or that is not a spot foul, the 15-yard penalty is enforced from the previous spot, and the five-yard penalty is
disregarded. Five vs. 15 enforcement cannot be declined by the team that committed the minor foul, except as described
in (2) below. See 4-8-2-h and 14-4-9-Item 3-Exc. 1 for dead ball fouls at the end of a half.

(2) If one of the fouls is a Dead Ball Foul for delay of game for spiking the ball and the opponent’s foul is a Live Ball Foul,
the team that committed the delay of game foul, in addition to Article 1 above, will have the option to decline the foul
committed by its opponent and be assessed the penalty for delay from the dead-ball spot.

(3) If both fouls are Dead Ball Fouls or are treated as such (14-4-9), the penalties are offset, and the ball is next put in play
at the succeeding spot, unless the Dead Ball fouls occur after the ball has been made ready for play, in which case 5 vs.
15 enforcement applies.​

Exception 1 is referring to two live ball penalties, and is not relevant. Exception 2 refers to a very specific situation involving a delay of game, and is not relevant. Example three involves two dead ball penalties, and is not relevant.

I'm not going to look through the rule book, but I suspect you are not finding a rule for this situation because there doesn't need to be one. The penalties are separate, they just happened to be announced at the same time. The pass was marked as completed, and Dallas was given a first down. The play is over. WFT was offsides, which is declined. AFTER the play, Collins throws a punch. This, like all dead ball penalties, is enforced from the end of play, and after down and distance are determined. It is only happenstance that Collins threw a punch before the offsides was announced. The ref incorrectly conflated the penalties, when in fact they are sequential and unrelated. Again, dead ball is dead ball.

 

[MarcusRock]

Exception 1 is referring to two live ball penalties, and is not relevant.

When the words Live Ball and Dead Ball appear in other Exceptions, including one involving both, how easy would it be to just enter "... where both are Live Ball penalties"? That's why it's all-inclusive when it refers to yardage only. There are both 15-yard Live Ball and 15-yard Dead Ball fouls, you know? Lol.

I'm not going to look through the rule book ...

Of course you aren't. No 'spiracy pusher ever wants to because they can't. That's why I challenge the "we wuz robbed" crew to prove their claims and they always stand down. Therefore, you have no basis for what you "think" happened so you'll default to that slanted spiel but will never go the length of proving what you know is bunk from the start.

 

[loublue22]

When the words Live Ball and Dead Ball appear in other Exceptions, how easy would it be to just enter "... where both are Live Ball penalties"? That's why it's all-inclusive when it refers to yardage only. There are both 15-yard Live Ball and 15-yard Dead Ball fouls, you know? Lol.



Of course you aren't. No 'spiracy pusher ever wants to. That's why I challenge the "we wuz robbed" crew to prove their claims and they always stand down. Therefore, you have no basis for what you "think" happened so you'll default to that slanted spiel.

I'm not pushing any conspiracy other than refs are dumb. You have not responded to the content of my argument, you just keep referring to rules that don't describe the situation and asking us to "interpret".

Again, what if the offsides was announced and then Collins threw a punch?

 

[Proof]

That's right, it's not what happened which is why the spike has its own exception. What did happen was a 15 (any 15) vs. 5 situation, which is accounted for. The fact that a Dead Ball foul is pointed out in successive exceptions means that was all accounted for when Exception 1 was written and therefore must include ALL types of fouls. During a play, after a play, or a combination thereof.

If you've seen this applied a different way before, then when was it so I can look it up?

I'm still wondering why "replay 3rd down" wasn't announced. Or why the rule doesn't state it's a replay of down.

 

[DallasInDC]

Exception 1 is referring to two live ball penalties, and is not relevant. Exception 2 refers to a very specific situation involving a delay of game, and is not relevant. Example three involves two dead ball penalties, and is not relevant.

I'm not going to look through the rule book, but I suspect you are not finding a rule for this situation because there doesn't need to be one. The penalties are separate, they just happened to be announced at the same time. The pass was marked as completed, and Dallas was given a first down. The play is over. WFT was offsides, which is declined. AFTER the play, Collins throws a punch. This, like all dead ball penalties, is enforced from the end of play, and after down and distance are determined. It is only happenstance that Collins threw a punch before the offsides was announced. The ref incorrectly conflated the penalties, when in fact they are sequential and unrelated. Again, dead ball is dead ball.

I agree with Loublue as it is exactly my interpretation of it as well.

And to Marcus' claim, it is possible for refs to make a mistake without it being a we "wuz robbed conspiracy". That is my take on it, and sounds like Loublue's as well.

 

[rags]

Collins will either be fined, suspended, or both.

 

[MarcusRock]

I'm not pushing any conspiracy other than refs are dumb. You have not responded to the content of my argument, you just keep referring to rules that don't describe the situation and asking us to "interpret".

Again, what if the offsides was announced and then Collins threw a punch?

What if a fan ran onto the field and stole the ball with under 2 minutes left in the half? Yeah, not sure because it didn't happen, nor am I claiming it did. Same for your question. If you think it was the wrong call, how about you prove your own claim? I'm able to prove mine. You can say it didn't apply all you want but a 15-yard penalty and a 5-yard penalty did occur and there are rules for that sort of thing.