Landry not White to blame for 1981 Niner Loss

[bbgun]

Defense was gassed. It happens.

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[T-RO]

Let me ask this:

- If White just takes a sack and holds onto the ball aren't the Cowboys dead? I see the fumble as almost irrelevant.

-That play was over FAST. White had barely set up and he was buried. Could Staubach or Romo could have evaded that one? (I doubt it)

 

[KJJ]

Let me ask this:

- If White just takes a sack and holds onto the ball aren't the Cowboys dead? I see the fumble as almost irrelevant.

-That play was over FAST. White had barely set up and he was buried. Could Staubach or Romo could have evaded that one? (I doubt it)

Had White hung onto the ball there was still time left and the Cowboys had at least one time out. The game wasn't over because of the sack it was over because of the fumble.

 

[T-RO]

Had White hung onto the ball there was still time left and the Cowboys had at least one time out. The game wasn't over because of the sack it was over because of the fumble.

Maybe not over in a technical sense but if the play caused them to burn their last time out and there was only around 20 seconds left it would have been very, very difficult.

I wasn't even a Cowboy fan in the 80's so I feel I'm more objective about it. The hatred that some fans have for Danny White seems very irrational and unfair to me.

And I'm certainly not saying that Landry wasn't an elite coach. I just think his best years were in the 70's, but the game caught up and then passed him by.

 

[KJJ]

Yes. Absolutely. 30 seconds left and he gets bulldozed while exposed, trying to throw that ball. I have zero doubt Staubach loses that game the exact same way!

TwoDeep you surely have some sort of bizarre hatred for Danny White. Maybe later he merited some of that. There is no way you can blame him for fumbling on that hit. There is NO WAY an objective guy can blame White for that loss.

But I bet you remember the game as a 10 or 12 year old and you can't objectively re-appraise.

And if you watch the game objectively you GOTTA admit White played much better than Montana. In how many playoff games can opposing qbs say that?

Can't blame White for the sack he had no chance but I do blame him for the fumble. He saw the hit coming and was braced for it and he lost the ball. You can't lose the ball in that situation. As I mentioned in a previous post that sack was exactly like the sack he took on the first series of the game. It was up the middle pressure and he saw the hit coming. White may have been statistically better than Montana that day but when it can down to crunch time Montana made a play to win the game and White didn't. Montana went on to become a legend and arguably the greatest QB in history and White went on to become just another QB who couldn't get it done in crunch time.

 

[burmafrd]

As I pointed out Landry did adjust to the WCO by going for ball hawk DBs and increasing the priority of the Pass Rush. Dallas set team records for pics and sacks in the 80's. The Flex took several years to learn because it was such a disciplined defense. If you did not draft well you were dead. And that is what happened.

 

[KJJ]

Maybe not over in a technical sense but if the play caused them to burn their last time out and there was only around 20 seconds left it would have been very, very difficult.

I wasn't even a Cowboy fan in the 80's so I feel I'm more objective about it. The hatred that some fans have for Danny White seems very irrational and unfair to me.

And I'm certainly not saying that Landry wasn't an elite coach. I just think his best years were in the 70's, but the game caught up and then passed him by.

Fans are critical of Danny White because he had to follow in the footsteps of Roger Staubach. Staubach was a legend and was Joe Montana before Joe Montana. Cowboys fans got spoiled watching Roger perform his miracles for a decade. He was the QB that finally got the franchise over the hump and turned the Cowboys into America's team. It's not easy following a legend and White couldn't live up to the standards Staubach set. As for the Cowboys time out situation in the final seconds of the 81 title game they may have had all 3 TO's for all I know. I don't remember exactly what their TO situation was but there was still time to get into FG range and set up a kick. Drew Pearson was a master at the sidelines plays. No receiver in the league at that time could tap dance on the sidelines the way he could. Go back to the Hail Mary game and watch the play he made on 4th and 16 on that final drive against the Vikings. The Cowboys could have easily gotten out of bounds and stopped the clock to set up for the winning kick.

 

[KJJ]

And I'm certainly not saying that Landry wasn't an elite coach. I just think his best years were in the 70's, but the game caught up and then passed him by.

The game was clearly starting to pass Landry by at this point. He was an old coach who was stuck in his ways. The game was changing and he wasn't changing with it. When Parcells came to Dallas he was still stuck in the 1980's trying to win games the way he did 20 years prior. Same thing happened to Joe Gibbs.

 

[T-RO]

Cowboys fans got spoiled watching Roger perform his miracles for a decade. He was the QB that finally got the franchise over the hump and turned the Cowboys into America's team. It's not easy following a legend and White couldn't live up to the standards Staubach set.

No doubt.

But fans don't realize how much luck and receiver play can factor into things when a game comes down to a final play or two. The stolen win in Minnesota was more a play by Pearson (pushing off?) and stupid Minnesota defense than it was anything by Staubach. Roger was clutch but he also had playmakers and some good fortune.

As for the chances the Cowboys might have had after a sack in that Niner game...we'll just have to disagree.

 

[T-RO]

The game was clearly starting to pass Landry by at this point. He was an old coach who was stuck in his ways. The game was changing and he wasn't changing with it. When Parcells came to Dallas he was still stuck in the 1980's trying to win games the way he did 20 years prior. Same thing happened to Joe Gibbs.

I agree 100%

 

[DWhite Fan]

Can't blame White for the sack he had no chance but I do blame him for the fumble. He saw the hit coming and was braced for it and he lost the ball. You can't lose the ball in that situation. As I mentioned in a previous post that sack was exactly like the sack he took on the first series of the game. It was up the middle pressure and he saw the hit coming. White may have been statistically better than Montana that day but when it can down to crunch time Montana made a play to win the game and White didn't. Montana went on to become a legend and arguably the greatest QB in history and White went on to become just another QB who couldn't get it done in crunch time.

Right

How the hell does Dallas' defense allow the 49ers to drive the length of the field in the final 4 minutes running the football? Anyone ever wonder how the slowest 49er on the field, Dwight Clark, got so open in the end zone? I guess that was all Danny's fault aswell? Landry went prevent in the closing minutes, as always, and it cost him dearly. Tom did the same thing on GB's final drive in the '67 "Ice Bowl" and it cost Dallas a title then aswell.

Danny out played Montana that day and should have never been in that final situation in the first place.

So, let me ask this question. Was Don Meredith "just another QB who couldn't get it done in crunch time"?

As someone said before, it has been almost 30 years and that game still haunts me.

The Philly loss the year before was the result of a complete team let-down from the emotional win in Atlanta the week before. Of course for all those White bashers out there, it was all Danny's fault.

Just like the fact that, even though he was out of the game before halftime, Danny was the reason the Cowboys lost to the Commanders the next year (Hogeboom throwing two killer INTs had nothing to do with the result).

I love it when individuals that never saw him play make assinine comments like the one highlighted above

 

[bbgun]

I wasn't even a Cowboy fan in the 80's so I feel I'm more objective about it. The hatred that some fans have for Danny White seems very irrational and unfair to me.

True. And Danny was no stranger to comeback wins himself ('78 playoffs vs Atlanta, '80 playoffs vs Atlanta again, the Miami game in '81, the Monday Night opener in '83, etc.) Roger was undeniably superior, but he didn't have the added burden of succeeding a legend.

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[Chocolate Lab]

Didn't see it yesterday, but watching it just now on NFLN, I'm not sure anyone is to blame. We just lost to one of the best QBs ever and probably the best pressure QB in history. I've always said LT and Montana are the two best football players I've ever seen. This game is just more evidence. It's not like we had a bunch of breakdowns on that "Catch" drive... Montana was just too good. His accuracy was unreal.

But BTW, re-watching it, I still felt like we were going to win after the White to Pearson play. We only needed another 12-15 yards for the winning FG. Danny was under siege on that last sack and the sack wasn't his fault, but still, there's no excuse for turning the ball over in that situation. There were still 33 seconds and even if we use our last timeout, we can still possibly get 20 yards in a couple of plays and at least take a shot at it.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Didn't see it yesterday, but watching it just now on NFLN, I'm not sure anyone is to blame. We just lost to one of the best QBs ever and probably the best pressure QB in history. I've always said LT and Montana are the two best football players I've ever seen. This game is just more evidence. It's not like we had a bunch of breakdowns on that "Catch" drive... Montana was just too good. His accuracy was unreal.

But BTW, re-watching it, I still felt like we were going to win after the White to Pearson play. We only needed another 12-15 yards for the winning FG. Danny was under siege on that last sack and the sack wasn't his fault, but still, there's no excuse for turning the ball over in that situation. There were still 33 seconds and even if we use our last timeout, we can still possibly get 20 yards in a couple of plays and at least take a shot at it.

White was an exciting player. He had skills and surely the erosion of the talent base of Dallas factored into his never getting past the NFC Championship game.

CL, I agree, I thought we were going to win that game. I KNEW White would deliver.

But his ball security was lax and I see no excuse he has for losing it.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy his career. Just that this day, when so much was on the line he didn't protect the ball at the most crucial time.

It took another decade and a completely different team to right the ship after that.

 

[THUMPER]

Roger Staubach was one of my all-time favorite Cowboys and ranks in my top-5 all-time as an NFL QB. He was great at times and brought us back on a number of occasions but as I have said before, Roger had his share of lousy performances in the playoffs:

* 7 times he ended up with a passer rating below 70.0, twice his rating was below 20.0!

* He completed less than 50% of his passes in 5 playoff games.

* He threw zero TD passes in 5 games.

* He threw multiple INTs in 5 games.

* Was sacked 4 or more times in 8 games.

* Roger was 12-6 as a starter in the playoffs and in 4 of those losses his performance was terrible.

My point is not that Staubach wasn't a great QB, he was, but that ALL QBs have bad some games in crunch time. Aikman was a god in the playoffs until 1996 when he became extremely average and even bad at times (particularly in the losses to the Cards & Panthers).

Staubach was great in 8 of our playoff wins in the 70s but he wasn't always great.

Danny White was a very good QB and should be respected for it more than he is. Was he as good as Staubach? Of course not, only a few guys are that great. Was he a top-10 QB in the league when he played? Yes he was. Prior to his wrist injury he was one of the best QBs in the NFL.

The other problem for White was that our defense in the 80s was not what it was in the 70s but that's not his fault.

 

[KJJ]

Right

How the hell does Dallas' defense allow the 49ers to drive the length of the field in the final 4 minutes running the football?

Landry's prevent defense certainly played a big part in that loss but the 49ers didn't run the ball into the endzone to win the game. The game is know as the "The Catch". Montana's legend began that day and he proved the next 13 years he could pick apart any defense no matter how you tried to defend him. The Cowboys inability to stop the 49ers running game played a big part in that drive because the Cowboys were in a prevent thinking pass. The 49ers crossed us up by running the ball. Montana was an absolute master in crunch situations. Six years later he carved up the Bengals on a long drive in the closing seconds to win a SB. No QB played as well as Montana did in big games. The guy never made mistakes when a game was in the balance. In my opinion he was hands down the greatest QB that ever lived.

Anyone ever wonder how the slowest 49er on the field, Dwight Clark, got so open in the end zone?

Ever wonder how Witten who's as slow as molasses gets so open? : Clark was probably faster than Witten and like Witten he could find soft spots in the defense.

Danny out played Montana that day and should have never been in that final situation in the first place.

How do you figure White outplayed Montana that day? White passed 173 yards compared to 286 yards for Montana. Montana tossed 3 TD passes including the game winner in the final 50 seconds. Montana did have 4 turnovers but none of them came during a critical situation with the game on the line. White had 2 turnovers and another fumble the Cowboys fortunately got back. His last fumble came at the worst possible time with the game on the line and it's been haunting most Cowboys fans for 29 years. That wasn't the first time White turned the ball at the end of a tight game. Only a blind homer would say White outplayed Montana that day. When the game came down to do or die Montana got it done and Danny White didn't...FACT! Each team had good breaks and bad breaks throughout the game and like most championship games do it came down to a QB having to make plays and Montana made them and Danny White didn't. There's a reason Montana is in the Hall Of Fame and White isn't even a consideration. Heck he's not even a consideration for his own teams Ring Of Honor.

So, let me ask this question. Was Don Meredith "just another QB who couldn't get it done in crunch time"?

How many times did Meredith lead the Cowboys to a championship? Meredith turned the ball over his share of times in big games. There's a reason Bart Starr is in the Hall Of Fame and Meredith isn't even a consideration. Meredith is in the Cowboys ROH but the standards for the Ring aren't what they are now. The fact that Don Perkins is in the ROH tells you the criteria for being inducted to the ROH was different in the early days. Perkins stats were as average as they get and so were Merediths. Meredith was inducted into the ROH because he was apart of the teams early success but mainly because of his off the field success on Monday Night Football. He became an icon on that show and some NFL fans weren't even aware of his football career. My gosh one of the GREATEST Cowboys ever Drew Pearson isn't even in the ROH and he made much more of an impact as a player than Meredith or Perkins did. Pearson played a part in two of the most historic plays in NFL history. He caught the Hail Mary and he made the key block on Tony Dorsetts 99 yard TD run. He damn near changed the course of history in the 81 title game had he been wearing a tear away jersey. Pearson played a big part in the success of Roger Staubach. Pearson was apart of some memorable plays and even helped make Clint Longely a household name amongst Cowboys fans. Who in your opinion was the better Cowboys player Meredith or Drew Pearson?

The Philly loss the year before was the result of a complete team let-down from the emotional win in Atlanta the week before. Of course for all those White bashers out there, it was all Danny's fault.

White stunk it up against Philly in the 1980 title game. He only completed 38% of his passes and his QB rating was a dismal 38.0. The Cowboys defense couldn't stop the run that day and White was completely ineffective.

I love it when individuals that never saw him play make assinine comments like the one highlighted above

I've been a diehard Cowboys fan since 1971 when they won their first SB. I saw every snap Danny White took. He was a good QB who folded under pressure. He had his moments with a great comeback against Atlanta in the 1980 playoffs and another great moment against Washington on a Monday Night game in 83 with another great comeback. He never came though in the title games and his career will be mostly remembered for that fumble in the final seconds of the 81 title game.

 

[Oldschool7]

How do you figure White outplayed Montana that day? White passed 173 yards compared to 286 yards for Montana. Montana tossed 3 TD passes including the game winner in the final 50 seconds. Montana did have 4 turnovers but none of them came during a critical situation with the game on the line.

Easy. White had a 90 qb rating without any blocking up front. Montana had a mediocre quarterback rating of 80 with much better support around him.

Montana had more yards ONLY because the Niners threw a dozen more passes.

White was more of a hero in that game than Montana---and I say that with no axe to grind.

Montana threw some horrible passes -- flat HORRIBLE passes in the clutch, missing a wide open Solomon. The Clark throw was a flukey thing and a great play by Dwight. The final drive was almost ALL running game.

Sure Montana had a lot of great games and comebacks. That game wasn't one of them.

 

[Oldschool7]

...but as I have said before, Roger had his share of lousy performances in the playoffs:

The other problem for White was that our defense in the 80s was not what it was in the 70s but that's not his fault.

Very good post Thumper. I think the fan base has been flat wrong and flat cruel with some of it's knee-jerk conclusions.

 

[burmafrd]

And if Clark did not make that great catch? Or Pearson does not get shirt tailed? We win there and almost certainly the SB. Now Montana would have still been great but it would not have started out that way. Love how you say Montana's 4 turnovers were no big deal. Montana DID NOT PLAY THAT WELL. Certainly not compared to later on. Big surprise- Young QB in the first huge game of his career. To me the difference in that game was the Catch and the Shirt Tail. And I have watched Dallas since 1970. Back before the passing game was dominant the passer rating meant very little. A couple of games that Roger won he had a lousy passer rating- but he got it done when it counted.

 

[KJJ]

White was more of a hero in that game than Montana---and I say that with no axe to grind.

Oh yeah White was a real hero and you claim you don't have an ax to grind? Dude that has to be the most ridiculous comment I've ever read on any sports board and I've been doing boards like this for almost 7 years.

Sure Montana had a lot of great games and comebacks. That game wasn't one of them.

You almost trumped your last comment. You can't possibly be serious!