Lets Ponder the Patriots Deflationgate Issue

Hoofbite

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Hoofbite if you can refute/counter/rebuttal Warren Sharp have at it. He actually welcomes anyone to bring data that reflects the opposite of his data should it exist...

  • To Point #1: Can you disprove that the Patriots changed in 2007, and prove that their 2000-06 fumble rate actually was very comparable to the 2007-14 fumble rate?
  • To Point #2: Can you disprove that the Patriots were statistical outliers in the 2007-14 period, and prove that the rest of the NFL, particularly the outdoor teams, actually fumbled at the same rate as the Patriots?
www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/follow-up-to-discuss-differing-studies-regarding-the-new-england-patriots-fumble-rate-since-2000


"If the data that others uncover thru different means and statistics show that 1) the Patriots do change in 2007, and 2) they do move well ahead of the NFL average by some margin from 207-14, but not to the exact extent of the data that I used would indicate, that’s still confirming (not denying) a potential issue, and we have even more data (which is different data) which shows 1) they changed and 2) they are different from the rest of the NFL. So the first step is, find data that disproves my numbers which are graphed above."

Refute what? The numbers are what they are. The disagreement I would have is that I'm not willing to make the leap and say it's because of deflated balls.

Personally, I think QB play is much more influential. I've also yet to see any sort of data quantifying the difference based on being indoor or outdoor, or if the difference that may exist is statistically significant.
 

BringBackThatOleTimeBoys

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Performing at halftime for the TJC Band when the Cowboys beat the Broncos in SB 12 will always be my favorite SB.

Thanks to the haters over the past couple of weeks - some impersonating drunk Eagles fans, this is my most enjoyable SB after that. The Patriots continue to be their Daddy and now they are the champs!
 

DallasCowboys2080

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Refute what? The numbers are what they are. The disagreement I would have is that I'm not willing to make the leap and say it's because of deflated balls.

Personally, I think QB play is much more influential. I've also yet to see any sort of data quantifying the difference based on being indoor or outdoor, or if the difference that may exist is statistically significant.


figures. yeh bring that data or not.
 

MichaelValentino

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Thomas Healy's experiment is public and should be the baseline for examing the psi issue (at least until he gets some competition).

Mr. Healy's experiment has not been peer-reviewed. I did respond to an article I read that described the experiment (see Kraft demands apology, pg 9 of that thread). I am not tooting my own horn but if you read all of my posts on this forum (I am new here) you will see that I have made comments that as far as I can tell (= qualifying statement) no one else has made.

In my calculations based on Gay-Lussac and Ideal Gas Law, I did account for atmospheric pressure and used absolute pressure, not gauge pressure. You can read my assumptions and number crunching on this thread and the one mentioned above. The MIT physics prof used absolute pressure - as one must - but he used standard atmospheric pressure, 14.7 psi. In my calcs I used barometric pressures in Foxboro, MA 2.5 hrs before kickoff and at halftime. I used real-time meteorological data to derive delta T and account for atmospheric pressure changes, real-time. Hence, my calcs were even more accurate and verifiable than MIT's.

Dampening the balls - as I mention in my post at the other thread - must be controlled in such a way as to reproduce real-time conditions. Balls not in play are kept in carts, are covered by towels, and are immediately towel-dried by ball boys when balls come to the sidelines following change of possession or if/when the official changes out a ball during the offensive' team's possession. Leaving the balls wetted and exposing them to 50F ambient air is not a replication of real time conditions. Any peer review analysis which fails to take this into account must be called into question. Mr. Healy would have had to dampen the balls subject them to 50F and constantly rotate 12 balls in 50F conditions from a wetted state to a dried state to simulate game-time conditions WHEN THE PATRIOTS HAD POSSESSION OF THE BALL. When the Colts were on offense ALL 12 PATS BALLS WERE IN A BALL CART AWAY FROM THE ELEMENTS.

I have a degree in engineering. I designed air pollution control equipment. I used to size ductwork and fans and calculate pressure losses in ducts, across exhaust hoods, etc. I write and review technical reports covering topics from pollutant fate and transport in groundwater to design of air and water pollution control processes to analyses of hydrogeological data, soil and groundwater data, remediation technology, etc., etc. I have critiqued reports and modified my own following peer and supervisory review.

Mr. Healy, I believe, is working on his masters in MechEng at C-M. C-M is an outstanding school. Mr. Healy is probably an excellent engineer. But his experiment should undergo careful QA/QC analysis before being accepted as 100% unimpeachable.

I realize this is beating a dead horse, but I see many comments which I feel compelled to respond to.

Thanks.
 
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MichaelValentino

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Mr. Healy's experiment has not been peer-reviewed. I did respond to an article I read that described the experiment (see Kraft demands apology, pg 9 of that thread). I am not tooting my own horn but if you read all of my posts on this forum (I am new here) you will see that I have made comments that as far as I can tell (= qualifying statement) no one else has made.

In my calculations based on Gay-Lussac and Ideal Gas Law, I did account for atmospheric pressure and used absolute pressure, not gauge pressure. You can read my assumptions and number crunching on this thread and the one mentioned above. The MIT physics prof used absolute pressure - as one must - but he used standard atmospheric pressure, 14.7 psi. In my calcs I used barometric pressures in Foxboro, MA 2.5 hrs before kickoff and at halftime. I used real-time meteorological data to derive delta T and account for atmospheric pressure changes, real-time. Hence, my calcs were even more accurate and verifiable than MIT's.

Dampening the balls - as I mention in my post at the other thread - must be controlled in such a way as to reproduce real-time conditions. Balls not in play are kept in carts, are covered by towels, and are immediately towel-dried by ball boys when balls come to the sidelines following change of possession or if/when the official changes out a ball during the offensive' team's possession. Leaving the balls wetted and exposing them to 50F ambient air is not a replication of real time conditions. Any peer review analysis which fails to take this into account must be called into question. Mr. Healy would have had to dampen the balls subject them to 50F and constantly rotate 12 balls in 50F conditions from a wetted state to a dried state to simulate game-time conditions WHEN THE PATRIOTS HAD POSSESSION OF THE BALL. When the Colts were on offense ALL 12 PATS BALLS WERE IN A BALL CART AWAY FROM THE ELEMENTS.

I have a degree in engineering. I designed air pollution control equipment. I used to size ductwork and fans and calculate pressure losses in ducts, across exhaust hoods, etc. I write and review technical reports covering topics from pollutant fate and transport in groundwater to design of air and water pollution processes to analyses of hydrogeological data, etc. I have critiqued reports and modified my own following peer and supervisory review.

Mr. Healy, I believe, is working on his masters in MechEng at C-M. C-M is an outstanding school. Mr. Healy is probably an excellent engineer. But his experiment should undergo careful QA/QC analysis before being accepted as 100% unimpeachable.

I realize this is beating a dead horse, but I see many comments which I feel compelled to respond to.

Thanks.


If it has not yet been deduced by the reader, I will be more clear here. Towel-drying the balls and keeping the balls out of the elements (in a covered ball cart) and accounting for the Colts' offensive possession time and TV timeouts, replays, etc. would have less effect on stretching the balls than keeping them wet-damp and exposed to 50F air for 90 minutes (approx time of two quarters).
 

DallasCowboys2080

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Is there anything that could be said that would be good enough?

im just interested in hearing/seeing someone contour his data because i cant figure it out. figure out the why of NEP being such outliers and the numbers being crazy like that. there has to be something. but if not than what the hell are the pats doing?
 

Hoofbite

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im just interested in hearing/seeing someone contour his data because i cant figure it out. figure out the why of NEP being such outliers and the numbers being crazy like that. there has to be something. but if not than what the hell are the pats doing?

It's not that they're doing anything else any team with a great QB couldn't. The vast majority of the league has awful QBs. When Tom was fumbling more, the Patriots weren't great.

Just like the Colts and Falcons. Manning didn't fumble a lot. Ryan doesn't fumble a lot. They're both right up there with the Patriots but have to be excluded because they're indoors.

Nevermind the Colts have fumbled a hell of a lot more post-Manning and the Falcons a hell of a lot more pre-Ryan.

Whatever benefit there is to being indoors wasn't there before 2007 (Ryan began in 2008) for the Falcons and hasn't been there for the Colts since Manning left.

They are the only team who has had 1 QB the whole time (except 2008), and their QB is one of the best at protecting the football.
 

DallasCowboys2080

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It's not that they're doing anything else any team with a great QB couldn't. The vast majority of the league has awful QBs. When Tom was fumbling more, the Patriots weren't great.

Just like the Colts and Falcons. Manning didn't fumble a lot. Ryan doesn't fumble a lot. They're both right up there with the Patriots but have to be excluded because they're indoors.

Nevermind the Colts have fumbled a hell of a lot more post-Manning and the Falcons a hell of a lot more pre-Ryan.

Whatever benefit there is to being indoors wasn't there before 2007 (Ryan began in 2008) for the Falcons and hasn't been there for the Colts since Manning left.

They are the only team who has had 1 QB the whole time (except 2008), and their QB is one of the best at protecting the football.

buts not just Tom, its the other players too that is used in Sharp's DATA. Sharp mentions its not anything that is in the coaching or technique. He believes its something else.

"There are many arguments which have been raised in favor of why the Patriots don’t fumble as often as other teams. Many of them are simply factually incorrect. If it was coaching, former players should be able to tell us that Bill Belichick suddenly and drastically changed the way he instructed players to carry the football in the 2006 offseason. But the data shows that if mysterious trade secret was delivered, the players forgot about it when they left New England, as their individual fumble rates became drastically worse when playing for other NFL teams.

The bottom line is, something happened in New England. It happened just before the 2007 season, and it completely changed this team. While NFL teams apparently are complaining to the league that they felt the Patriots played with deflated footballs during the 2014 season and postseason, all investigations into those allegations would be wise to reference my research herein, and begin the investigation in the 2006. That was when Tom Brady was able to persuade the NFL to change its rules to allow him (and other quarterbacks) to provide their own footballs for all road games. I will reiterate, this analysis cannot say it was, undoubtedly, illegal football deflation which caused the data abnormalities. But it does conclude that something absolutely changed, and it was not the result of simple random fluctuation."
 

Hoofbite

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buts not just Tom, its the other players too that is used in Sharp's DATA. Sharp mentions its not anything that is in the coaching or technique. He believes its something else.

"There are many arguments which have been raised in favor of why the Patriots don’t fumble as often as other teams. Many of them are simply factually incorrect. If it was coaching, former players should be able to tell us that Bill Belichick suddenly and drastically changed the way he instructed players to carry the football in the 2006 offseason. But the data shows that if mysterious trade secret was delivered, the players forgot about it when they left New England, as their individual fumble rates became drastically worse when playing for other NFL teams.

The bottom line is, something happened in New England. It happened just before the 2007 season, and it completely changed this team. While NFL teams apparently are complaining to the league that they felt the Patriots played with deflated footballs during the 2014 season and postseason, all investigations into those allegations would be wise to reference my research herein, and begin the investigation in the 2006. That was when Tom Brady was able to persuade the NFL to change its rules to allow him (and other quarterbacks) to provide their own footballs for all road games. I will reiterate, this analysis cannot say it was, undoubtedly, illegal football deflation which caused the data abnormalities. But it does conclude that something absolutely changed, and it was not the result of simple random fluctuation."

More than he believes it's something else, he WANTS it to be something else.

Professionals have pointed out some flaws in his work, and he's pretty much just dismissed them as trivial.

I don't think he's even established that the Patriots are the statistical anomaly that he presents them to be so looking at every single argument he's put forward isn't necessary. Could the argument that the Patriots have been benefitting from deflated balls be made just by looking at the statistics for the individual players he's listed? Hell no.

Until he establishes that the Patriots are truly abnormal nothing else really matters, and he's not going to do that by asking people to accept that indoor teams have some advantage. Without the exclusion of indoor teams, the difference really doesn't warrant the amount of attention that it has been given. The Falcons have just as many fumbles since 2007, and the Colts aren't all that far behind even after a 31 fumble season in 2014.

He's run all these numbers and met with statistic professionals, but there hasn't been any sort of benefit described for indoor teams yet? How many fumbles less do indoor teams have than outdoor teams? Is it really significant? He undoubtedly knows these answers, but he's not disclosing them likely because it completely dismantles his reason for excluding indoor teams and his entire argument would fall apart after that.

In addition to the indoor/outdoor aspect, the fact that QB play is largely responsible for a teams fumbles means that the Patriots could be benefitting just because they're the only team who has had a great QB for the last 14 years. In that case, so what?
 

DallasCowboys2080

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More than he believes it's something else, he WANTS it to be something else.

Professionals have pointed out some flaws in his work, and he's pretty much just dismissed them as trivial.

I don't think he's even established that the Patriots are the statistical anomaly that he presents them to be so looking at every single argument he's put forward isn't necessary. Could the argument that the Patriots have been benefitting from deflated balls be made just by looking at the statistics for the individual players he's listed? Hell no.

Until he establishes that the Patriots are truly abnormal nothing else really matters, and he's not going to do that by asking people to accept that indoor teams have some advantage. Without the exclusion of indoor teams, the difference really doesn't warrant the amount of attention that it has been given. The Falcons have just as many fumbles since 2007, and the Colts aren't all that far behind even after a 31 fumble season in 2014.

He's run all these numbers and met with statistic professionals, but there hasn't been any sort of benefit described for indoor teams yet? How many fumbles less do indoor teams have than outdoor teams? Is it really significant? He undoubtedly knows these answers, but he's not disclosing them likely because it completely dismantles his reason for excluding indoor teams and his entire argument would fall apart after that.

In addition to the indoor/outdoor aspect, the fact that QB play is largely responsible for a teams fumbles means that the Patriots could be benefitting just because they're the only team who has had a great QB for the last 14 years. In that case, so what?


he has a second article responding to the professionals rebuttal and he counters their rebuttal. he lays out why and how these folks who want to counter his data should proceed to contour his data by using a wider sample size as he is using as oppose to a small sample size. his rebuttal makes sense. the counters to his don't. he wants those that dismiss his data to show their data with a wide sample size. no one can so far. when you say "he Falcons have just as many fumbles since 2007, and the Colts aren't all that far behind even after a 31 fumble season in 2014." you are using a small sample size and he explains the flaw in this. he goes on about the indoor outdoor situation btw. at this point NO ONE has proved or debuked:

stick with the MACRO DATA and either prove or debunk it.
  • To Point #1: Can you disprove that the Patriots changed in 2007, and prove that their 2000-06 fumble rate actually was very comparable to the 2007-14 fumble rate?
  • To Point #2: Can you disprove that the Patriots were statistical outliers in the 2007-14 period, and prove that the rest of the NFL, particularly the outdoor teams, actually fumbled at the same rate as the Patriots?
 

MichaelValentino

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I posted this at the Kraft apology thread.............

If Mortensen's initial report was inaccurate then I agree this was much ado about nothing. One still must be curious, if he is objective, as to why one ball would register 2.0 psig below regulation.

Here's a link to the Headsmart page which directs to the findings of Tom Healy's experiement:

http://www.headsmartlabs.com/#in-the-news

Mr. Healy found that in this test a total pressure loss of 1.82 psig was measured, taking 12 footballs from 12.5 psig in dry 75F conditions to 50F wet conditions.

I've reviewed Healy's report and have commented on the two threads here at Cowboyszone that have dealt with this issue. I still find Healy's attempt to reproduce real-time conditions to be somewhat flawed.

Healy, based on the combined gas law and Ideal Gas Law derived a delta P of 1.07 psig based on temperature differential alone.

I posted my calculations and underlying assumptions on the two topic threads here and derived a delta P of 1.03 psig. Unlike Healy, I corrected for a lowering in barometric pressure during the game of roughly 2 mm Hg (0.09" Hg). Accounting for change in P-atm lends to a more accurate calculation of P-gauge when solving for absolute pressure.

I also started at an indoor temp of 72F (versus Healy's 75F). Both are within reasonable range for indoor conditions. Likely, many household and office thermostats are found within this range. I took the halftime temp of 49F from real-time meteorological data (vs 50F for Healy). Again, a minor difference. I accounted for some equilibration of air temp inside the footballs when they were brought into the officials' locker room at the half, allowing for a positive delta T of 2F, arriving at 51 F. My overall delta T in running the Ideal Gas Law, assuming constant volume (V1 = V2) was 23F; cf. Healy at 25F. I assumed the balls were brought into the officials locker room in either a ball bag or ball cart and allowed about 10 minutes for the officials to get coffee, use the restroom and get to the task of measuring the ball pressures.

Again, I was trying to be conservative and reasonable in my underlying assumptions.

Healy wetted the balls by immersing them in cold water, thereby saturating the leather completely. He then placed them in a 50F room with a fan blowing on them.

This is where I must critique his experiment - and I have shared my thoughts here previously. We must look at how teams take care of footballs during outdoor games in inclement weather. Home teams provide 12 more balls during outdoor games than indoor. Ball care is not an issue in September (for the most part) or during most games that the Dolphins play at home, but it becomes an issue later in the year for many teams playing outdoors. In bad weather - snow or rain - ball boys keep their team's balls covered and out of the elements. Balls coming to the sidelines from the official following change of possession, or prior to a kick (FG or punt) are immediately towel-dried and then covered in a cart or bag. Pre-game warm-ups do NOT involve game balls which are turned in to the officials more than two hours before kickoff. Game balls are kept as dry as possible throughout the game. By keeping them covered and in a ball cart or ball bag, that may provide a small, yet measurable, protection from ambient temperature drops experienced during outdoor games. So, to derive empirical data based on wetted, saturated balls left with air blowing over them in 50F is not a real-time simulation of game conditions. Not unless the NE Patriots and Indianapolis Colts - and very other NFL team - has their 12 game balls sitting on the bench or on the ground exposed to the rain and cold (or snow in Green Bay or Chicago or Pittsburgh......) for the entire game. Let us be realistic here: teams do NOT do that. Mr. Healy did in his experiment, but this is not normal practice, either in the NFL or collegiate level.

Healy derived an additional pressure drop of 0.75 psig (11.43 psig - 10.68 psig) based on the wetting/exposure to ambient conditions phase of his experiment, which incidentally followed two hours of balls sitting in a cold room at 50F. His overall delta P was therefore 1.82 psig (12.5 psig - 10.68 psig).

A more accurate reproduction of real-time conditions would be to maintain the balls in a 50F room for 2 hours, wet a ball while keeping the others dry, approximate a time the ball "in play" would remain wet to mimic the possession time of each NE possession during the first half, then dry the ball thoroughly, place it in a ball bag with the other 11 balls, take another ball, saturate it, keep it exposed to the elements (as Healy did, a wet ball with a fan blowing over it in a 50F room), dry that ball, place it in the ball bag and repeat the process for the length of time the first two quarters took.

This would replicate real-time conditions better. I suspect it would also result in less volume expansion as calculated (from Boyle's Law, which demonstrates an inverse relationship between pressure and volume at constant T) by Healy.

Mr. Healy, using a delta P of 0.75 psig and assuming P-atm of 14.7 psi arrives at a volume expansion of 3% to account for the 3% reduction in absolute pressure. Here, Healy should have confirmed his findings. The volume of a footbal is: V = 4/3 * pi * a * b^2, where a is half the length of the ball along the major axis, b the radius of the ball along the minor axis of the football (2a = length of ball; 2b = diameter of ball at fattest part, center of the laces). A 3% increase in volume (volume of football based on a = 14.0 cm, b = 8.5 cm is 4237 cm^3 or 4237 cc) would increase V from 4237 cc to 4364 cc. Increasing V by a factor of 1.03 is equivalent to increasing b by a factor of 1.0149 (1.015). This would increase the circumference of the ball at its fattest part from 53.41 cm to 54.2 cm. The experiment should have measured initial and final diameter and circumference to verify the inferred volume increase based on Boyle's Law.

One thing that must be answered: if Healy's findings support New England's position, then that would appear to contradict (a) rebuttals of Mortensen's position, which Rogah and HoustonFrog seemingly support; and (b) the findings that the Colts balls were ALL within spec. You see, if the Colts' balls were generally at the high end of compliance, i.e., 13.5 psig, then based on a delta P of -1.82 psig (accounting for delta T and saturation effects on pebble-grained cowhide) all of the Colts balls would be found to be at approx. 11.7 psig - hence they would fail to meet NFL specs. In effect, if Healy were to "clear" the Pats, he would simultaneously place the Colts balls out of spec and in violation; however, the NFL did not find the Colts balls to be out of spec. Thus, Healy did not reproduce game conditions on the visitor's side of Gillette Stadium on January 18, 2015.

One more critique of Healy's experiment: composition of the air he used to inflate the balls at 75F to 12.5 psig should have been included. Was he using dry air? What was the % water vapor of the air if not dry? A complete analysis of delta P should include the effect (potential effect) of vapor pressure of water as a function of T. Using Dalton's Law of partial pressures, one can approximate the loss in internal ball pressure based on the % by volume (correlates to decimal equivalent of molar fractions of air and water vapor) of water comprising the air in the ball. For example, water has a vapor pressure of 26.7 mm Hg at 75 F (27C) and about 10 mm Hg at 50 F (11 C). That is a change of vapor pressure of about 16.7 mm Hg, which is roughly 0.32 psig. If the air used toe fill the balls was relatively dry, one need not account for the delta P due to decreased vapor pressure, but composition of the air would be needed to know for certain.

I would be interested to see if other engineers peer review Healy's experiment.

I have worked for years with attorneys preparing cases, and I know that data (when cases do go to court) and conclusions based on said data are thoroughly scrutinized.

If this in is an issue of seeking an unfair competitive advantage or simply a major misunderstanding of facts, I would hope that if one party relies on Mr. Healy's study that it would undergo careful analysis by competent engineers and scientists.

I've taken it probably as far as I care to go, and am not sure if anyone is even following this any longer.

I find it interesting that Rogah rebuts virtually everything that runs counter to his position, but I have not seen him respond or attempt to refute anything I've said following my initial post.

-MV
 

Rogah

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I find it interesting that Rogah rebuts virtually everything that runs counter to his position, but I have not seen him respond or attempt to refute anything I've said following my initial post.

-MV
Tldr

Brevity is the soul of wit. If there's something you want to ask me, I'll be happy to answer it, but it has to be in a post containing fewer than 10,000 words
 

Hoofbite

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he has a second article responding to the professionals rebuttal and he counters their rebuttal. he lays out why and how these folks who want to counter his data should proceed to contour his data by using a wider sample size as he is using as oppose to a small sample size. his rebuttal makes sense. the counters to his don't. he wants those that dismiss his data to show their data with a wide sample size. no one can so far. when you say "he Falcons have just as many fumbles since 2007, and the Colts aren't all that far behind even after a 31 fumble season in 2014." you are using a small sample size and he explains the flaw in this. he goes on about the indoor outdoor situation btw. at this point NO ONE has proved or debuked:

Small sample size? Since 2007 is not a small sample size.

If you want to talk about since 2001, the Chargers and within 5 fumbles of the Patriots, and the Chiefs are within 12.

His argument isn't that the Patriots have been so much better since 2001. It's that they've been better since 2007 and given their improvement over the previous span of years, it's clear that they have been "doing something".

stick with the MACRO DATA and either prove or debunk it.
  • To Point #1: Can you disprove that the Patriots changed in 2007, and prove that their 2000-06 fumble rate actually was very comparable to the 2007-14 fumble rate?

Why would anyone even try? He may as well be saying, "if you cannot disprove numbers, you cannot disprove the reason why I THINK they exist".

That's dumb. Again, nobody is arguing whether or not the Patriots fumbled any number of times. Why they have better fumbling rates is the discussion.

  • To Point #2: Can you disprove that the Patriots were statistical outliers in the 2007-14 period, and prove that the rest of the NFL, particularly the outdoor teams, actually fumbled at the same rate as the Patriots?

First and foremost, nobody has to prove any of it just as nobody has to prove anything regarding point #1.

Secondly, just become 1 team does fumble less doesn't mean anything. It's not as if every snap has an equal likelihood of resulting in a fumble across the league. We know that it doesn't because some QBs (Vick, Cutler, Flacco, Rivers, etc.) fumble more than other QBs (Brady, Manning, Ryan, Brees, etc.)
 

MichaelValentino

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Tldr

Brevity is the soul of wit. If there's something you want to ask me, I'll be happy to answer it, but it has to be in a post containing fewer than 10,000 words

I doubt any of my posts have come close to 10,000 words. I found your silence viz a viz my analysis interesting. I stated so.

You commented on my first post with a rebuttal of my use of the Ideal Gas Law and proferred an example regarding free fall and terminal velocity as somehow introducing real life variables that do not follow equations and text books (I believe that is a fair summation of your position).

However, you failed to take into account that the laws of physics do account for the fact that there is a limiting factor due to acceleration of gravity. It is called drag force. Hence dv/dt --> 0 as drag forces (air resistance) act on a falling body. Acceleration due to gravity becomes zero and bodies fall at a constant terminal rate - this, of course depends on the profile of the object and excludes objects with high surface area to mass ratios.

Bottom line: textbooks do apply to real life and equations we engineers use, whether the gas laws, Bernoulli's Eqn, kinematic equations to plot trajectories of rockets, etc. do have real life application. The equations we use to plot delta T vs delta P or delta V for something as silly as a football also enable us to design and size coal-fired boilers, the electrostatic precipitators and SO2 scrubbers which clean the flue gases from them, the induced draft fans which pull combustion gases thru the system and up thru the stack. Engineers deal in real life 24/7.

You criticized me for relying on Mortensen. I pulled back from relying on that single report and qualified everything I've posted on this forum.

Others have relied on Healy's report to defend NE and respond to Mortensen. I respond to that report on this forum also.

I've offered technical critique and analysis of positions you have defended and whereas I have read plenty of back-and-forth (and some rather wordy) between you and other forum members on a whole host of topics on this forum, you have not refuted one thing I have posted despite being a proficient debater.

I even publicly apologized to you for my use of the word apologist.

Perhaps I've been an apologist for scientific principle as it relates to the "deflategate" matter.

Anyway, I've tried to help other people find their way thru the false premises and shaky scientific theories as it relates to the pressure of a football. You needn't reply. I have no specific question to ask you.

Thanks,
MV
 

DallasCowboys2080

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Small sample size? Since 2007 is not a small sample size.

If you want to talk about since 2001, the Chargers and within 5 fumbles of the Patriots, and the Chiefs are within 12.

His argument isn't that the Patriots have been so much better since 2001. It's that they've been better since 2007 and given their improvement over the previous span of years, it's clear that they have been "doing something".

yes and his argument that the data/evidence shows its not coaching/technique/or anything different one player is doing. that i believe is the crux of your contour.

Why would anyone even try? He may as well be saying, "if you cannot disprove numbers, you cannot disprove the reason why I THINK they exist".

because if his data is so off it should be easy to disprove. no one has. people cherry pick

That's dumb. Again, nobody is arguing whether or not the Patriots fumbled any number of times. Why they have better fumbling rates is the discussion.

and no ones data/evidence supports (yet) that there isn't an anomaly happening.


First and foremost, nobody has to prove any of it just as nobody has to prove anything regarding point #1.

right nobody doesnt have to do anything but if they want to contour him intellectually/scientifically this is a good place to start again if he is so off in his data

Secondly, just become 1 team does fumble less doesn't mean anything. It's not as if every snap has an equal likelihood of resulting in a fumble across the league. We know that it doesn't because some QBs (Vick, Cutler, Flacco, Rivers, etc.) fumble more than other QBs (Brady, Manning, Ryan, Brees, etc.)


look at those numbers. if what your saying about his data or evidence or numbers are so off that he is looking at it wrong please support your contour with data to contour or at least show that there isn't an anomaly happening.
 

DallasCowboys2080

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why is it so hard for someone to throw up some data supporting the idea that there isn't an anomaly happening with the patriots fumbles since 2007 compared to the ones from 2001-2007 if warren sharps data is so off or so wrong??????


thats what im looking for. an explanation in the data using numbers as he did. not some cherry picking contour to a point. its much more substantial i believe to put up some data in numbers for the contour.


not picking on you hoofbite or anyone else personally but im really interested in looking at some contours using data.
 

Rogah

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I doubt any of my posts have come close to 10,000 words. I found your silence viz a viz my analysis interesting. I stated so.

You commented on my first post with a rebuttal of my use of the Ideal Gas Law and proferred an example regarding free fall and terminal velocity as somehow introducing real life variables that do not follow equations and text books (I believe that is a fair summation of your position).

However, you failed to take into account that the laws of physics do account for the fact that there is a limiting factor due to acceleration of gravity. It is called drag force. Hence dv/dt --> 0 as drag forces (air resistance) act on a falling body. Acceleration due to gravity becomes zero and bodies fall at a constant terminal rate - this, of course depends on the profile of the object and excludes objects with high surface area to mass ratios.

Bottom line: textbooks do apply to real life and equations we engineers use, whether the gas laws, Bernoulli's Eqn, kinematic equations to plot trajectories of rockets, etc. do have real life application. The equations we use to plot delta T vs delta P or delta V for something as silly as a football also enable us to design and size coal-fired boilers, the electrostatic precipitators and SO2 scrubbers which clean the flue gases from them, the induced draft fans which pull combustion gases thru the system and up thru the stack. Engineers deal in real life 24/7.

You criticized me for relying on Mortensen. I pulled back from relying on that single report and qualified everything I've posted on this forum.

Others have relied on Healy's report to defend NE and respond to Mortensen. I respond to that report on this forum also.

I've offered technical critique and analysis of positions you have defended and whereas I have read plenty of back-and-forth (and some rather wordy) between you and other forum members on a whole host of topics on this forum, you have not refuted one thing I have posted despite being a proficient debater.

I even publicly apologized to you for my use of the word apologist.

Perhaps I've been an apologist for scientific principle as it relates to the "deflategate" matter.

Anyway, I've tried to help other people find their way thru the false premises and shaky scientific theories as it relates to the pressure of a football. You needn't reply. I have no specific question to ask you.

Thanks,
MV
Actually I did read your posts and found them to be very well thought out and written by someone who clearly knows what they are talking about. I didn't contribute anything here over the weekend (until late Sunday) because most of the time I spend here is to kill a couple minutes during the workday (procrastination is my friend!) Plus I tend not to reply to posts I agree with and I saw nothing in your post with which I disagreed. Quite honestly, I admit you clearly know more about the subject than I do.

I think one thing we are all hampered by is the simple misinformation out there. We've heard all the balls were 2 PSI under. Then we heard 1 PSI under. Then we heard 1 was 2 PSI under but the rest were just "a tick" under. Then we heard the one that was 2 PSI under is, by an amazing coincidence, the one that happened to be in the Colts' possession. It is very difficult to draw conclusions when the facts themselves are so much in dispute.

My tendency right now - which I admit is biased - is to buy what the Patriots are selling for a couple reasons which have little to do with physics. When they got caught with "Spygate" they didn't deny it. They weren't exactly open and forthcoming with the media, but there were no stringent denials. In this case, they sure have gone all in. They've had 4 press conferences on the matter, including one where the owner pushed all his chips to the center of the table so either he's got the cards or he's the best bluffer on the planet.

As for the physics, it seems that as time has passed, the physics have favored the Patriots more and more - not because the laws of physics have changed but because the reports have changed. When the initial report came that they were all (or 11/12) 2 PSI under, that looked pretty bad. Naturally the haters have married themselves to that report. However, that initial report has been contradicted multiple times. We heard it was closer to 1 PSI than 2 PSI then we heard it may be even less than that. As mentioned above, even Einstein cannot draw terribly accurate conclusions based on faulty data. If he had to deal with the same misinformation we've had to deal with, we'd all be saying E=mc-cubed. :D
 

Rogah

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why is it so hard for someone to throw up some data supporting the idea that there isn't an anomaly happening with the patriots fumbles since 2007 compared to the ones from 2001-2007 if warren sharps data is so off or so wrong??????
That's already been done; you just choose not to believe it.

The original analysis was poorly performed, sloppy, mislabeled, and cherry picked data so much that no serious statistician would accept the validity of those results. Haters, of course, love it.... but the serious statisticians, not so much.
 

Yakuza Rich

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My tendency right now - which I admit is biased - is to buy what the Patriots are selling for a couple reasons which have little to do with physics. When they got caught with "Spygate" they didn't deny it.

That's absolutely incorrect.

They denied it.

But, because Mangini was the one reporting it and knew that they had a cameraman disguised on the Jets sideline, there was no way getting around it. Mangini could specifically point to where the cameraman was on their sidelines. So they got caught red-handed and changed their tune.

They then they only claimed to have 'done it for a few games' which was a lie.

They got caught in that lie and claimed 'we only did it on defensive signals.'

Again, a lie...and they got caught in that lie.

They then tried to claim that Matt Walsh basically did it on his own....another lie.

Belichick said "I couldn't pick Matt Walsh out of a lineup" despite the fact that Walsh was standing side-by-side in not one....not two...but three different team photos.

Then the evidence got destroyed. So you have the Patriots lying every step of the way about SpyGate from their involvement to their level of spying to who should be accountable. And the evidence got destroyed which nobody on planet earth with any credibility with handling a situation similar to this could ever understand why. And given there were complaints from other teams of the Patriots tapping into the radio signals for other teams (and the league changed its policy immediately afterwards)...one has to wonder what was on those tapes or what other evidence the league knew about that convinced them to destroy the tapes.

Either that or Goodell is the absolute dumbest person on earth.

I could at least live with science showing that it is possible that the balls deflated on themselves even though I have a hard time understanding why none of the Colts' footballs were under-inflated.

But, If you're basing your trust in the Patriots because you believe they were honest about SpyGate, I think that obliterates the credibility of your argument.

They weren't honest and they didn't admit to it until they had to after they got caught lying.







YR
 
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