Maine shooting

Creeper

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How many of them are gang related and you never hear about them?
The FBI reports over 80% of violent crimes in America are gang/drug related.

But we have a violence problem in America. It is too common, and we have become complacent to most forms of it.
 

gtb1943

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The FBI reports over 80% of violent crimes in America are gang/drug related.

But we have a violence problem in America. It is too common, and we have become complacent to most forms of it.
If you cut down on that 80% you are making a big difference. But the gang violence is ignored by all in power and the media.
 

Creeper

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If you cut down on that 80% you are making a big difference. But the gang violence is ignored by all in power and the media.
Of course if we eliminated the 80% the 20% remaining would be very small and much more tolerable. But the reality is we have a lot of young men joining gangs and that is what we need to start to reverse.
 

BrAinPaiNt

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Of course if we eliminated the 80% the 20% remaining would be very small and much more tolerable. But the reality is we have a lot of young men joining gangs and that is what we need to start to reverse.
Sadly some of the biggest gangs are in NYC and LA. They are the police department. Some have individual gangs, with gang tattoos within the police departments in Cali. You can find some stories on that on Youtube that are pretty fascinating and sad.

Also...the business created by all of the gangs and violence (civilian as well as within police) is too valuable and generate too much money for many different businesses that it will never go away.

Police get huge amounts of money due to drug and gang violence. Even some small towns that do not have much crime at all have police that have gear that makes them look like a special ops unit.

That also includes those that make all of that equipment that is military grade.

This includes many prisons that have become privatized or contracted out and has incentives to have more people within them.

This includes the court system that seems to have an endless supply of stupidity to keep some people out of jail and others in.

And most of that was just from the "legal" side of the issue.

This does not even count the illegal side of things with drugs, weapons, trafficking.

Sorry, turning off old man tin foil rant.
 

HungryLion

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Sadly some of the biggest gangs are in NYC and LA. They are the police department. Some have individual gangs, with gang tattoos within the police departments in Cali. You can find some stories on that on Youtube that are pretty fascinating and sad.

Also...the business created by all of the gangs and violence (civilian as well as within police) is too valuable and generate too much money for many different businesses that it will never go away.

Police get huge amounts of money due to drug and gang violence. Even some small towns that do not have much crime at all have police that have gear that makes them look like a special ops unit.

That also includes those that make all of that equipment that is military grade.

This includes many prisons that have become privatized or contracted out and has incentives to have more people within them.

This includes the court system that seems to have an endless supply of stupidity to keep some people out of jail and others in.

And most of that was just from the "legal" side of the issue.

This does not even count the illegal side of things with drugs, weapons, trafficking.

Sorry, turning off old man tin foil rant.
The war on drugs is a fraud that’s been perpetuated on the American people for decades.

The only true effective way to reduce drug use is by attacking the user side, not the supply side.
 

gtb1943

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The war on drugs is a fraud that’s been perpetuated on the American people for decades.

The only true effective way to reduce drug use is by attacking the user side, not the supply side.
Problem is that the system treats users as disease victims when bluntly speaking they are not. Addiction is not a disease.
When you can decide NOT to take drugs, that is not a disease; its a weakness
 

HungryLion

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Problem is that the system treats users as disease victims when bluntly speaking they are not. Addiction is not a disease.
When you can decide NOT to take drugs, that is not a disease; its a weakness
The physiological effects that the drug use has on a persons brain or body does need to be treated.

Comprehensive treatment to help those addicted beat their addiction is the only effective way to fight against drug use.
 

gtb1943

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The physiological effects that the drug use has on a persons brain or body does need to be treated.

Comprehensive treatment to help those addicted beat their addiction is the only effective way to fight against drug use.
problem is that it does not work; the recidivism rate is like 90% no matter what system is used.
Now maybe there is a better one I never heard of but the whole concept looks to be faulty; research needs to throw out all the old assumptions and start from the ground up.
 

HungryLion

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problem is that it does not work; the recidivism rate is like 90% no matter what system is used.
Now maybe there is a better one I never heard of but the whole concept looks to be faulty; research needs to throw out all the old assumptions and start from the ground up.
I don’t think the 90% number is truly accurate. That’s the relapse rate for opioids. But then again, relapse doesn’t mean ultimate failure either.

That being said, of course treatment has to get better. Agreed there. What we do know is that the “war on drugs” doesn’t work AT ALL. Would be nice if more of those resources were being put into research, improving treatment and increasing access to treatment.

As opposed to just pissing into the wind trying to stop the flow of drugs in the country.
 

Creeper

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The war on drugs is a fraud that’s been perpetuated on the American people for decades.

The only true effective way to reduce drug use is by attacking the user side, not the supply side.
But to do that we would have to iincarcerate a lot of people and no one will stand for it.
 

Creeper

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Problem is that the system treats users as disease victims when bluntly speaking they are not. Addiction is not a disease.
When you can decide NOT to take drugs, that is not a disease; its a weakness
We seem to treat a lot of problems as mental diseases, except for actual mental illness which gets ignored.
 

HungryLion

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But to do that we would have to iincarcerate a lot of people and no one will stand for it.
No. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m talking about treatment for drug addiction.

Incarcerating drug users doesn’t work.
 

gtb1943

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I don’t think the 90% number is truly accurate. That’s the relapse rate for opioids. But then again, relapse doesn’t mean ultimate failure either.

That being said, of course treatment has to get better. Agreed there. What we do know is that the “war on drugs” doesn’t work AT ALL. Would be nice if more of those resources were being put into research, improving treatment and increasing access to treatment.

As opposed to just pissing into the wind trying to stop the flow of drugs in the country.
Take a good look at the studies.
Even for lesser drugs its incredibly high.
Treatment HAS FAILED. Just like trying to stop the flow has failed.
A complete rethink of this up and down the line is what is needed.
Trying to claim just a tweak here or there will fix it is stupid.
When the system totally fails you junk the ENTIRE system and start over.
 

Vtwin

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In this state, addiction has become a profit center for both the supply side and the treatment side. Addicts are treated as victims and given all the free resources they need to wallow in that victimhood status and continue down that dark road. At best, they can trade the illegal addiction for the legal addiction (suboxone/methadone). Many, if not most take advantage of both. If addiction was "cured" tonight, large state bureaucracies would no longer be needed, putting people out of work, huge budgets no longer necessary. There is no incentive to actually solve this crisis from a government perspective. It's become a self-perpetuating cycle. The government is not about downsizing. Far from it.

Beating an opiate addiction is a HUGE task. It takes a true "come to Jesus" moment so to speak, to even begin to try. It is nearly impossible without help. Any amount of "treatment" will not help if the addict goes right back to the same conditions they were stuck in. That is magnified greatly when the same people who are tasked with that treatment are also telling you it's not your fault and handing out clean needles, crack pipes and all the narcan you need.

I have massive empathy for those stuck in opiate addiction. It is a choice to start, but pretty soon it's not simply a choice to quit. It takes a massive effort and a ton of support from everyone around you.

Sometimes a gentle hand is the right path to solving these societal problems. Unfortunately, when it comes to the current addiction problem, it's going to take a hardcore 'boot up the ***" to turn things around. People will suffer. That is where the current system has lead us though.

The changes in society, in my area, over my 60 years, due entirely to opiate addiction are monumental, to say the least. It's only going to get worse following the current direction.
 

Creeper

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No. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m talking about treatment for drug addiction.

Incarcerating drug users doesn’t work.
Treatment for drug addiction is expensive and ineffective. Like any addiction, whether it is cigarettes or alcohol, the addict has to have a strong desire to kick his habit. Forcing someone into a clinic is just throwing money into a firepit.

The rate of recidivism among drug addicts thrown into drug treatment is extremely high.
 

HungryLion

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Treatment for drug addiction is expensive and ineffective. Like any addiction, whether it is cigarettes or alcohol, the addict has to have a strong desire to kick his habit. Forcing someone into a clinic is just throwing money into a firepit.

The rate of recidivism among drug addicts thrown into drug treatment is extremely high.
Incarcerating them is also throwing money into a fire pit.

Wasting resources on arresting dealers and incarcerating them, when 5 more pop up for every one arrested is throwing money into a fire pit too.
 

HungryLion

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Treatment for drug addiction is expensive and ineffective. Like any addiction, whether it is cigarettes or alcohol, the addict has to have a strong desire to kick his habit. Forcing someone into a clinic is just throwing money into a firepit.

The rate of recidivism among drug addicts thrown into drug treatment is extremely high.
Honestly the whole thing is an S show lol
 

HungryLion

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Take a good look at the studies.
Even for lesser drugs its incredibly high.
Treatment HAS FAILED. Just like trying to stop the flow has failed.
A complete rethink of this up and down the line is what is needed.
Trying to claim just a tweak here or there will fix it is stupid.
When the system totally fails you junk the ENTIRE system and start over.
yeah I hear what you’re saying. You make some good points.

I just think incarcerating users is the absolute most useless way to handle it. Just doesn’t work and wastes a ton of money.
 

Creeper

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When I was in college, the student union had Dick Gregory come to our campus to speak. He was talking about durgs and the high number of drug addicts in the country and he made a funny point. He asked, "how come durg addicts never have a problem finding drug deals to buy drugs from but the cops can't find these guys and arrest them? I know it is a joke and oversimplifies the problem, but still...
 

gtb1943

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yeah I hear what you’re saying. You make some good points.

I just think incarcerating users is the absolute most useless way to handle it. Just doesn’t work and wastes a ton of money.
How about all the crimes committed by the users trying to get their next fix.
Do not the innocent deserve to be protected from that?
 
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