Many cooks in the kitchen, without a chef!

[OmerV]

Yes did not take Floyd but ended up drafting Frederick, sorry not going to whine too much about that. I have no problems with the talent this team has been drafting and picking up in FA. Most who cover the NFL seems to see the talent on this team which lead them to question Garrett and the coaching staff of why they could not win with the talent they have.

Don't forget by trading back they also got a 3rd round pick that was used on Terrance Williams, so by passing on Floyd we got both Frederick and Williams.

 

[Stash]

I clearly did not absolve the team, I just didn't overblow what a screw up means.

Bull.

You're in Cowboys excuse mode once again.

A screw up in the draft is not a dramatic moment in the NFL the way some want to portray it, especially with a late 1st round pick, and it's actually possible for a person to acknowledge a screw up without treating it as a dramatic moment. A screw up in the draft is a mistake teams have to move on from after it is made - all teams. We can't blindly pretend it is only a major issue when the Cowboys do it because that's what we want to believe.

But you can seemingly try to downplay it whenever its Cowboys related. Nice double standard you have going in 'your world'.

We weren't talking about "the rest of the draft", so your comment on that doesn't address anything I wrote. But just to be clear, it wasn't just Frederick instread of Floyd, by trading back we also got a 3rd round pick that was used on Terrance Williams, so we got both Frederick and Williams by passing on Floyd.

And drafted Williams (a bust long out of the league) over Keenan Allen, multi-time Pro Bowler. It doesn't help with your attempted excuses whatsoever.

 

[Doomsday101]

Don't forget by trading back they also got a 3rd round pick that was used on Terrance Williams, so by passing on Floyd we got both Frederick and Williams.

I agree. No doubt anyone can go back in a draft and see a player who ended up developing into a top player that you passed on. Every team out there has passed on a player. However when I look at the draft I tend to focus on what Dallas got not what they passed on. In Frederick we got a

• 5× Pro Bowl (2014–2017, 2019)

• First-team All-Pro (2016)

• 2× Second-team All-Pro (2014, 2015)

• PFWA All-Rookie Team (2013)

In my book that is a very good pick, it is unfortunate that he retired after 6 years but again in terms of the talent level of the player we selected he was outstanding.

 

[OmerV]

Bull.

You're in Cowboys excuse mode once again.



But you can seemingly try to downplay it whenever its Cowboys related. Nice double standard you have going in 'your world'.



And drafted Williams (a bust long out of the league) over Keenan Allen, multi-time Pro Bowler. It doesn't help with your attempted excuses whatsoever.

lol, I'm not going to get into the theatrics with you again. You believe everything has to be viewed as dramatic and people have to be up in arms over every issue or mistake, and if a person doesn't react that way they don't actually believe there was a mistake. I don't - I believe teams just have to accept they made a mistake and move forward trying to do what they can to avoid the same mistake again. Teams aren't going to be mistake free - none of them are - so all they can do is learn from mistakes. There is no logic to the belief that a mistake requires soap opera dramatics.

As for the double standard you mentioned, what in the world are you talking about? I don't treat a mistake by any other team differently, so where is the double standard?

As for passing on Keenan Allen, yeah, we did, and yes, Allen would have been a better choice. That doesn't in any way change what I said. Frederick and Williams actually did work out much better than Floyd did.

But if we want to talk about Allen, if NFL teams knew on draft day Allen was going to be as good as he is he wouldn't have even been available in the 3rd round. But a person could look in hindsight at every draft, every year by every team and find players that would have been better choices. That's the nature of the draft.

 

[Stash]

lol, I'm not going to get into the theatrics with you again.

And yet here you are once again?

You believe everything has to be viewed as dramatic and people have to be up in arms over every issue or mistake, and if a person doesn't react that way they don't actually believe there was a mistake. I don't - I believe teams just have to accept they made a mistake and move forward trying to do what they can to avoid the same mistake again. Teams aren't going to be mistake free - none of them are - so all they can do is learn from mistakes. There is no logic to the belief that a mistake requires soap opera dramatics.

"There is no logic to the belief that a mistake" needs to be sugar coated or lessened as you're once again attempting to do.

As for the double standard you mentioned, what in the world are you talking about? I don't treat a mistake by any other team differently, so where is the double standard?

As for passing on Keenan Allen, yeah, we did, and yes, Allen would have been a better choice. That doesn't in any way change what I said. Frederick and Williams actually did work out much better than Floyd did.[/quote]

Frederick did, Williams didn't. Any case that includes his name is lesser for it.

But if we want to talk about Allen, if NFL teams knew on draft day Allen was going to be as good as he is he wouldn't have even been available in the 3rd round. But a person could look in hindsight at every draft, every year by every team and find players that would have been better choices. That's the nature of the draft.

And the nature of recognizing and learning from mistakes rather than sugarcoating them and pumping propaganda that they were less than they were.

 

[quickccc]

As for Floyd ...

Even if Marinelli came from the same background as Kiffen, that doesn't change the fact It was Kiffen at DC, so blame him instead of Marinelli.

And really, I don't see how that is fair anyway considering Kiffen didn't have authority to make any decision Jerry and Jason didn't buy into.

And, then, there is still the fact that the Cowboys came out way ahead by trading down and passing on Floyd, so I don't understand why a fan would complain anyway.

As for Taco …

The team screwed up. It happens. There were 3 other teams besides Dallas that took DE's before Watt was taken, and every one of them made the wrong choice as well

Thanks for Sharing.

Though Kiffin was the new DC in 2013, Marinelli was ithe DL coach involved in the decision to pick/not picked
When Cowboys are expected to draft a DB, LB or DL very early rounds, it's a reason why you see position coaches enter into the war room, on the phone with players, with the "announced" picked draftees.

Odd that You have been the only one i've heard to this day, that's implying to blame Kiffin instead of the Marinelli, when local media sources have clearly reported it was brought to Marinelli the DL coach, not Kiffen.

- i don't think anyone is disputing (or "complaining") that the Cowboys lucked out with Fredrick over Floyd, because one on to an All pro career (albeit shortened) vs the other career that was marred and shortened by injury. i bring up Floyd because it was suggested that he was just a good player- but i've disputed that
injuries further complex by questionable treatment never gave him a chance to develop into a player.

And You still hear the Sheriff Floyd pick because of the preference type (Marinelli) and a speculation that
there was partial in the war room among scouts vs coaches.

And that partial in the Draft war room seems to rear it's ugly head again (and way again)
in the TJ Watt vs Taco Charleton 2017 draft.
One side saw more of a flat player maker factor than Taco.. while the other "preference" side
saw/desire to stick to more " length" and "scheme-fit " on the side of Taco.

Which ' scheme-fit/ size-length " seems ironically funny since it was the same preference side that seem to have no qualms playing a part in drafting a 237 pound DE out of Nebraska in the 2nd round in 2015.

- Also i'm not focused on " other" NFL teams and what they did and did not do, .i'm focused on this
very team and what they do ..or do not do.
How they evaluate, scout, building and devising their draft board or go about coaching recommendations into their draft process is their business..how they choose to proceed in such
matter... vs what the process in how we decide, how we go about our draft selections.
That includes "improving " how we go about our future draft process.

 

[OmerV]

And yet here you are once again?



"There is no logic to the belief that a mistake" needs to be sugar coated or lessened as you're once again attempting to do.


Frederick did, Williams didn't. Any case that includes his name is lesser for it.



And the nature of recognizing and learning from mistakes rather than sugarcoating them and pumping propaganda that they were less than they were.

lol - As the World Turns. I think you have a great shot at a daytime Emmy award.

 

[OmerV]

Thanks for Sharing.

Though Kiffin was the new DC in 2013, Marinelli was ithe DL coach involved in the decision to pick/not picked
When Cowboys are expected to draft a DB, LB or DL very early rounds, it's a reason why you see position coaches enter into the war room, on the phone with players, with the "announced" picked draftees.

Odd that You have been the only one i've heard to this day, that's implying to blame Kiffin instead of the Marinelli, when local media sources have clearly reported it was brought to Marinelli the DL coach, not Kiffen.

- i don't think anyone is disputing (or "complaining") that the Cowboys lucked out with Fredrick over Floyd, because one on to an All pro career (albeit shortened) vs the other career that was marred and shortened by injury. i bring up Floyd because it was suggested that he was just a good player- but i've disputed that
injuries further complex by questionable treatment never gave him a chance to develop into a player.

And You still hear the Sheriff Floyd pick because of the preference type (Marinelli) and a speculation that
there was partial in the war room among scouts vs coaches.

And that partial in the Draft war room seems to rear it's ugly head again (and way again)
in the TJ Watt vs Taco Charleton 2017 draft.
One side saw more of a flat player maker factor than Taco.. while the other "preference" side
saw/desire to stick to more " length" and "scheme-fit " on the side of Taco.

Which ' scheme-fit/ size-length " seems ironically funny since it was the same preference side that seem to have no qualms playing a part in drafting a 237 pound DE out of Nebraska in the 2nd round in 2015.

- Also i'm not focused on " other" NFL teams and what they did and did not do, .i'm focused on this
very team and what they do ..or do not do.
How they evaluate, scout, building and devising their draft board or go about coaching recommendations into their draft process is their business..how they choose to proceed in such
matter... vs what the process in how we decide, how we go about our draft selections.
That includes "improving " how we go about our future draft process.

I never said Marinelli didn't give input, but he wasn't in charge of the defense, nor of the team. He did not have unilateral authority to make a decision, or to override what Kniffen or Jason or Jerry wanted. Some like to pretend that's the case, but if it was a screw up, it's certainly not entirely on the lowest guy on that particular totem pole. The others had to approve of the choice.

I'm still at a loss on how getting Travis Frederick and Terrance Williams instead of Floyd was a screw up anyway, but what the Hell.

Taco, I get - clearly the team made a mistake there. History proves that. History does not support the idea that trading back instead of taking Floyd was a screw up.

As for draft processes. 2017 was a weak draft for the Cowboys, but the same people were in charge of the draft in 2016, and that was one of the better drafts in Cowboy history. The draft just isn't an exact science, and the standard isn't having a great draft every year - no team does that. It's just a matter of looking at the results over time, and how that stacks up relative to the NFL as a whole.

 

[Stash]

lol - As the World Turns. I think you have a great shot at a daytime Emmy award.

And if they ever bring back the Naked Gun series, you'll be in luck too:

 

[quickccc]

I never said Marinelli didn't give input, but he wasn't in charge of the defense, nor of the team. He did not have unilateral authority to make a decision, or to override what Kniffen or Jason or Jerry wanted. Some like to pretend that's the case, but if it was a screw up, it's certainly not entirely on the lowest guy on that particular totem pole. The others had to approve of the choice.

I'm still at a loss on how getting Travis Frederick and Terrance Williams instead of Floyd was a screw up anyway, but what the Hell.

Taco, I get - clearly the team made a mistake there. History proves that. History does not support the idea that trading back instead of taking Floyd was a screw up.

As for draft processes. 2017 was a weak draft for the Cowboys, but the same people were in charge of the draft in 2016, and that was one of the better drafts in Cowboy history. The draft just isn't an exact science, and the standard isn't having a great draft every year - no team does that. It's just a matter of looking at the results over time, and how that stacks up relative to the NFL as a whole.

Marinelli lead involvement was about his position role expertise and preference towards the draftee (Floyd) in consideration and the scheme, not about him being the titled DC.

Its a reason why we were hearing the whole term " quick-twitch" ..and preference in that draft, so of course they (scouts) were going be asking Marinelli for his recommendations and lead involvement into that draft.
" Quick twitch " had more to do and related with Marinelli.the DL coach... than Kiffin.the DC.

the big thing about the draft whether 2016 vs 2017, was how they evaluate and process the value of their
draft board. They went after Taco because of the strong preference and involved recommendation of
Rod Marinelli. Reportedly they had two players rated and considered higher on their draft board in
CB Kenny King and edge rusher TJ Watt.

But apparently they not only gave in to picking the player more preferably to Marinelli, but
they " reached" for a guy that was a need for DL, and they were afraid that any of the DEs they
have and wanted on their draft board were gonna be gone about the time their 2nd rd pick came around.

the draft is gonna be a science project, but i still feel a lot better if those same draft guys in 2016
who wanted DEs Kevin Dodd and Emanuel Ogbad (sp) before considering medical risk Jaylon Smith
or tried to trade up to draft for bust QB Paxton Lynch (denver) and trade up for another QB bust Conner Cook (raiders) before Dak was eventually drafted in 4th round.

if we lose in the draft, i'd like to do so with Mcclay staying by the value of his draft board -going with the best graded, valued player on his board ala CeeDee Lamb vs reaching for the sake need for defense ala K'Lavon Chaisson, without any Marinelli in his ear pushing him to reach for preference, need.

 

[quickccc]

I never said Marinelli didn't give input, but he wasn't in charge of the defense, nor of the team. He did not have unilateral authority to make a decision, or to override what Kniffen or Jason or Jerry wanted. Some like to pretend that's the case, but if it was a screw up, it's certainly not entirely on the lowest guy on that particular totem pole. The others had to approve of the choice.

I'm still at a loss on how getting Travis Frederick and Terrance Williams instead of Floyd was a screw up anyway, but what the Hell.

Taco, I get - clearly the team made a mistake there. History proves that. History does not support the idea that trading back instead of taking Floyd was a screw up.

As for draft processes. 2017 was a weak draft for the Cowboys, but the same people were in charge of the draft in 2016, and that was one of the better drafts in Cowboy history. The draft just isn't an exact science, and the standard isn't having a great draft every year - no team does that. It's just a matter of looking at the results over time, and how that stacks up relative to the NFL as a whole.

 

[OmerV]

Marinelli lead involvement was about his position role expertise and preference towards the draftee (Floyd) in consideration and the scheme, not about him being the titled DC.

Its a reason why we were hearing the whole term " quick-twitch" ..and preference in that draft, so of course they (scouts) were going be asking Marinelli for his recommendations and lead involvement into that draft.
" Quick twitch " had more to do and related with Marinelli.the DL coach... than Kiffin.the DC.

the big thing about the draft whether 2016 vs 2017, was how they evaluate and process the value of their
draft board. They went after Taco because of the strong preference and involved recommendation of
Rod Marinelli. Reportedly they had two players rated and considered higher on their draft board in
CB Kenny King and edge rusher TJ Watt.

But apparently they not only gave in to picking the player more preferably to Marinelli, but
they " reached" for a guy that was a need for DL, and they were afraid that any of the DEs they
have and wanted on their draft board were gonna be gone about the time their 2nd rd pick came around.

the draft is gonna be a science project, but i still feel a lot better if those same draft guys in 2016
who wanted DEs Kevin Dodd and Emanuel Ogbad (sp) before considering medical risk Jaylon Smith
or tried to trade up to draft for bust QB Paxton Lynch (denver) and trade up for another QB bust Conner Cook (raiders) before Dak was eventually drafted in 4th round.

if we lose in the draft, i'd like to do so with Mcclay staying by the value of his draft board -going with the best graded, valued player on his board ala CeeDee Lamb vs reaching for the sake need for defense ala K'Lavon Chaisson, without any Marinelli in his ear pushing him to reach for preference, need.

I didn't suggest Marinelli's input was based on anything other than his expertise as a DL coach. I merely said he didn't have autonomy on making the choice, and that Kniffen, Jason and Jerry had to sign off on it for it to happen, and any ability he had to provide input was based on those 3 allowing him to have input. They didn't just hand the draft over to Marinelli and tell him to make whatever pick he wanted without review or input or approval from anyone else.

As for Taco in 2017, again, I agree they made a mistake.

As for 2016, I'm sure a lot of teams attempted moves that never happened, not just the Cowboys. Obviously we know a couple of those moves would have been bad ones had they happened, but thank goodness the team didn't go to the point of paying whatever it took to get those guys. Some of the best moves are those not made.

 

[quickccc]

I never said Marinelli didn't give input, but he wasn't in charge of the defense, nor of the team. He did not have unilateral authority to make a decision, or to override what Kniffen or Jason or Jerry wanted. Some like to pretend that's the case, but if it was a screw up, it's certainly not entirely on the lowest guy on that particular totem pole. The others had to approve of the choice.

I'm still at a loss on how getting Travis Frederick and Terrance Williams instead of Floyd was a screw up anyway, but what the Hell.

Taco, I get - clearly the team made a mistake there. History proves that. History does not support the idea that trading back instead of taking Floyd was a screw up.

As for draft processes. 2017 was a weak draft for the Cowboys, but the same people were in charge of the draft in 2016, and that was one of the better drafts in Cowboy history. The draft just isn't an exact science, and the standard isn't having a great draft every year - no team does that. It's just a matter of looking at the results over time, and how that stacks up relative to the NFL as a whole.

true that Marinelli does not have the final say, official call in name to podium authority - but
it is Marinelli's strong recommendations and preference type that the player personnel/scout guys are going to factor in mightily when it comes to the DL draftee candidates that are on their draft board.

With marinelli and that need for DL at their faces, you have to question if McClay and co. have been more strongly influenced against their usual draft board value philosophy with picks of Taco and Trysten Hill
Could Hill been a push (reach) to the front line more so than normally for the pressured sake of getting a DL guy
they thought would not be available a round later, causing them to bypass safeties such as Juan Thornhill (chiefs) and taylor rapp (rams) ?

 

[Stash]

true that Marinelli does not have the final say, official call in name to podium authority - but
it is Marinelli's strong recommendations and preference type that the player personnel/scout guys are going to factor in mightily when it comes to the DL draftee candidates that are on their draft board.

With marinelli and that need for DL at their faces, you have to question if McClay and co. have been more strongly influenced against their usual draft board value philosophy with picks of Taco and Trysten Hill
Could Hill been a push (reach) to the front line more so than normally for the pressured sake of getting a DL guy
they thought would not be available a round later, causing them to bypass safeties such as Juan Thornhill (chiefs) and taylor rapp (rams) ?

It was a matter of acquiescing to the opinions, wants, and desires of Rod Marinelli. That's not up for debate. Despite some trying to muddy the waters, the fact was that this organization - starting with the former head coach - mistakenly believed that Marinelli was a defensive line genius. As a result, they simply left it up to him whenever there were decisions to be made regarding the defensive line. None of them knew any better so they trusted that he did. And clearly, he didn't.

They kept waiting for things to turn around and for his 'Rushmen' concept to finally pay off. Fact is that it never did. They sacrificed sound run defense for sack numbers that never materialized. The game figured Marinelli out, the same way it figured out his mentor Monte Kiffin, who went out in disgrace. When the Cowboys finally had the ability to invest significant resources in the defensive line, they trusted the selection process to the wrong guy, and paid dearly for it (and the new staff still is).

 

[OmerV]

true that Marinelli does not have the final say, official call in name to podium authority - but
it is Marinelli's strong recommendations and preference type that the player personnel/scout guys are going to factor in mightily when it comes to the DL draftee candidates that are on their draft board.

With marinelli and that need for DL at their faces, you have to question if McClay and co. have been more strongly influenced against their usual draft board value philosophy with picks of Taco and Trysten Hill
Could Hill been a push (reach) to the front line more so than normally for the pressured sake of getting a DL guy
they thought would not be available a round later, causing them to bypass safeties such as Juan Thornhill (chiefs) and taylor rapp (rams) ?

Sure. Jerry, Jason and Kiffen will consider the wants and recommendations of their position coaches. I'm not saying Marinelli is free from any responsibility, but it is still ultimately the decision of others. Keep in mind the team has a draft board to consider, and they set priorities, and they have recommendations from other scouts and coaches. Jerry, Jason, the scouting director and the Coordinators have to sort through all that to make the ultimate choice. If all involved had disagreed with the choice except Marinelli, Marinelli's choice would not have been picked, so the responsibility falls on the whole bunch of them.

And, realistically, even if the team had just told Marinelli to make whatever choice he wanted without any discussion, or input or questions from anyone else, that still wouldn't deflect a lot of the blame from those higher on the food chain. They would still bear blame for allowing that to happen.