Marinelli and Pass Rushing

[Alexander]

Did people forget he coached the DL and was a D coordinator of a Bears team that crapped all over everyone like 5 years ago?

Yes and he had Julius Peppers.

He needs special talent. Just like what he had in Tampa.

 

[Wood]

I wonder if Marinelli will ever have a great pass rush.

He might have a decent overall defense, but I wonder if his scheme will ever produce a great pass rush even with better players.

He loves the DL stunt. The Cowboys DL appears to stunt more than half of the time. Most teams use the stunt as a surprise tactic but Marinelli uses it almost as his base strategy.

The problem with stunting is that is takes away the possibility of the DL just beating his man immediately off the snap because 1 DL is generally slamming into an OL at an angle while the other DL loops around. They often double-stunt with both DE/DT pairs doing it. This takes time. It often "works" but unfortunately it usually works about 1 second after the QB has thrown the ball.

They try not to stunt when they think it is going to be a run. We've seen a few times this season where DT Irving has beat the OL on a run play to tackle the RB in the backfield. This type of shooting the gap play is basically impossible on a stunt. If the Cowboys had Aaron Donald at DT I wonder if he would just be average because his best move (shooting the gap) would not be an option on most snaps.

It's not just the DT shooting the gap that is an issue. When the DE crashes down on a stunt it takes him out of play to just beat the OT around the outside. Often the DE is not even threatening the OT to the inside either because they have the DEs "crash" into the OG in an attempt to get the DT space to loop around or they have the DE going all the way to the Guard-Center gap.

Another issue with stunting is that it can cause problems with run defense. Several of the big runs the Cowboys have allowed came when the DL was stunting. In some games they will struggle against the run for awhile and then suddenly they'll start shutting down the run. One of the reasons that this happens is because Marinelli will quit stunting after they've been gashed by the run several times.

The great thing about Marinelli is that he teaches fundamentals like tackling and playing with leverage, etc.. Teaching fundamentals should result in young players developing over time. Compare that to a D-Coordinator like Rob Ryan who is totally focused on complex scheming and not focused on teaching fundamentals. Even if Ryan's defense is great one game or one year, it might not be the following game or year because he is not focused on teaching fundamentals and is instead dependent on himself to call a great game every week.

I'm curious about the average time that QBs held the ball back when Marinelli was coaching on the Super Bowl Tampa Bay team as compared to now. Maybe more QBs were holding the ball longer and the stunt was more effective. I'm not saying that is definite, just throwing out a possibility of why he is so attached to stunting. Once a coach has had success with something it is often difficult for them to get away from doing it.

I do think any new D-Coordinator would be happy to inherit a Marinelli defense because they have been coached on fundamentals and discipline. On the other hand a DC that inherits a Rob Ryan defense would likely want to clean house because players have likely developed a lot of bad habits.

Maybe if Marinelli had a great DE he would not stunt as much but I'm not certain that's true. Marinelli was the DL coach in Ware's last year with the Cowboys and he had Ware "crashing" down inside often. Ware did struggle with injuries that year, IIRC, so maybe that was an issue.

The Cowboys are on an unprecedented winning streak so the defense must be good enough. Maybe sacks and turnovers are not required if you also are not giving up big plays. I do know that as a fan it would be fun to see more sacks and turnovers.

I think what make Marinelli successful over the years is his ability to factor in style the offense plays and adjust his defensive style to augment winning results. Its fairly balzy to allow teams to throw at will between 20s as they inadvertently eat up the clock. He then somehow gets defense to clamp down inside 20. Not sure I have seen better coaching job considering the talent on defensive side.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

Good question.

I did say he might have good defenses now and in the future. I just question if those defenses will have good pass rush stats.

What he was really know for in Chicago was turnovers.

Ranking for Sacks in his years as DC for the Bears:
2010 - 17th
2011 - 19th
2012 - 8th (The best year in Chicago for Peppers in terms of sacks)

Ranking for INTs in his years as DC for the Bears:
2010 - 5th
2011 - 6th
2012 - 1st

A big part of the success in CHI was the play and consistent turnovers that Peanut would produce.

 

[Jarv]

Interesting thread, I was thinking they don't stunt enough? The stunt is not good for the run game, which is why I thought we stayed away from it sooo much.

To me the big problem we have is blitzing. We telegraph those things way too much, no disguise. When was the last time we had a free shot at the QB from a man not picked up? Hopefully he is hiding this stuff for the playoffs.

 

[Macnalty]

Good question.

I did say he might have good defenses now and in the future. I just question if those defenses will have good pass rush stats.

What he was really know for in Chicago was turnovers.

Ranking for Sacks in his years as DC for the Bears:
2010 - 17th
2011 - 19th
2012 - 8th (The best year in Chicago for Peppers in terms of sacks)

Ranking for INTs in his years as DC for the Bears:
2010 - 5th
2011 - 6th
2012 - 1st

He is a master of making mediocre individual players team players, and then devising a scheme to be competitive.

 

[Bull Frog]

I think the only time his DLs ever got consistent pressure was with Sapp.

Going on memory here so cut some slack lol

I think Simeon Rice was the edge guy on those teams. He was pretty good as was Derrick Brooks at LB.

 

[Idgit]

Melton, Peppers, Briggs, Urlacher, Tillman.

v.

Lee, Jones?

It's the talent, and not the coaching.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

This seems quite simple. The defense isn't talented enough. When it's not you try gimmicks.

And unless you have statistics around how Rod had Ware crashing in "often" in 2013 I'm going to summarily dismiss that argument from what's presented here.

Our defense is not good. Expecting more than what we've got over the past 4 years is silly.

 

[Dale]

This seems quite simple. The defense isn't talented enough. When it's not you try gimmicks.

And unless you have statistics around how Rod had Ware crashing in "often" in 2013 I'm going to summarily dismiss that argument from what's presented here.

Our defense is not good. Expecting more than what we've got over the past 4 years is silly.

Wish I could triple like this post. I think the OP raises good questions about schematics and such, but my overall feeling is that it's not reasonable for one to expect the defensive personnel we have to generate any kind of consistent pressure up front. We just don't have rushers off the edge.

 

[xwalker]

I think what make Marinelli successful over the years is his ability to factor in style the offense plays and adjust his defensive style to augment winning results. Its fairly balzy to allow teams to throw at will between 20s as they inadvertently eat up the clock. He then somehow gets defense to clamp down inside 20. Not sure I have seen better coaching job considering the talent on defensive side.

Yes, as I mentioned, I think he can have a good defense, I just don't know if it will ever be one with a lot of sacks unless he changes the scheme when he gets better talent at DE.

I would actually like to see turnovers more than sacks; although, those probably go hand-in-hand.

 

[xwalker]

Melton, Peppers, Briggs, Urlacher, Tillman.

v.

Lee, Jones?

It's the talent, and not the coaching.

As I said in the OP, I think he can have a good defense. I just don't know if it will be one that gets a lot of sacks unless he changes the scheme when he get better talent at DE.

 

[xwalker]

A big part of the success in CHI was the play and consistent turnovers that Peanut would produce.

Yes, by far the biggest different in those defenses and the Cowboys current defense is turnovers.

 

[Idgit]

As I said in the OP, I think he can have a good defense. I just don't know if it will be one that gets a lot of sacks unless he changes the scheme when he get better talent at DE.

This was a great thread idea, btw. I wasn't implying that you'd said otherwise, either. Honestly, I don't care much about the sacks either way if we were getting TOs and limiting points. And I don't really care where we add the impact players from, as long as we start adding them. Pick a spot on defense right now, and you can probably upgrade it in the first two rounds of the next two drafts.

 

[TheCoolFan]

Just eliminate the 3-man rush. I don't see any benefit to ever having a 3-man rush in the NFL!

 

[xwalker]

Wish I could triple like this post. I think the OP raises good questions about schematics and such, but my overall feeling is that it's not reasonable for one to expect the defensive personnel we have to generate any kind of consistent pressure up front. We just don't have rushers off the edge.

Yes, that's what I'm curious about. Could DLaw get more pressure/sacks if he could just attempt to beat the OT on every passing snap as opposed to spending so much time running stunts.

I do like the Marinelli concept of rushing on almost all plays as-if it is a pass and then adjusting if it is a run. This in theory should be much better than when Rob Ryan had DWare reading-and-reacting (i.e. Read to see if run then pass rush if it is not a run).

The odd thing that goes with that is that he appears to coach them to not really rush wide and deep into the pocket. He likes them to hold up once they get to QB depth because rushing wide/deep is not good for defending the run. Obviously they get more leeway on obvious passing downs, but then they do more stunts on those downs.

 

[xwalker]

This was a great thread idea, btw. I wasn't implying that you'd said otherwise, either. Honestly, I don't care much about the sacks either way if we were getting TOs and limiting points. And I don't really care where we add the impact players from, as long as we start adding them. Pick a spot on defense right now, and you can probably upgrade it in the first two rounds of the next two drafts.

I'm not sure if I really conveyed my thoughts clearly in the OP. It is just that I spend a lot of time re-watching the Cowboys games over and over and I see patterns that are sometimes difficult to describe.

I guess I could go back and chart pass rushes in terms of stunt vs no stunt, but my impression is that the stunts are just not working very often.

I do know that Marinelli is aware of some stats like double-teams so maybe the stats are better than I think on stunts but I don't know if they really chart stunts. In the off-season he quoted how often DLaw succeed when single vs double teamed and attributed his success in 2015 to Hardy drawing double-teams. As much as people seem to hate Hardy, Marinelli really appeared to want him to return.

 

[xwalker]

Just eliminate the 3-man rush. I don't see any benefit to ever having a 3-man rush in the NFL!

I would consider a 2-man rush. If you have 4 DL rushing and they are not getting pressure, then you might as well have more guys in coverage. I think the stats this season for the defense in 3-man rushes is probably good. Maybe not in yards, but in preventing 3rd down conversions.

 

[gmoney112]

Good question.

I did say he might have good defenses now and in the future. I just question if those defenses will have good pass rush stats.

What he was really know for in Chicago was turnovers.

Ranking for Sacks in his years as DC for the Bears:
2010 - 17th
2011 - 19th
2012 - 8th (The best year in Chicago for Peppers in terms of sacks)

Ranking for INTs in his years as DC for the Bears:
2010 - 5th
2011 - 6th
2012 - 1st

QB Hurries Bears Defense
2010 - 14th
2011 - 1st
2012 - 3rd

Takeaways Bears Defense
2010 - tied for 3rd
2011 - tied for 5th
2012 - 1st

 

[xwalker]

QB Hurries Bears Defense
2010 - 14th
2011 - 1st
2012 - 3rd

Takeaways Bears Defense
2010 - tied for 3rd
2011 - tied for 5th
2012 - 1st

Good stats.

Where did you get the hurries?

 

[BoysfanfromCanada]

What is this mythical pass rush you speak of?

I believe it was an old, old wooden ship from the civil war era