Mass shooting in Orlando nightclub

[Nova]

As a multiple gun owner then you already know what its like to get a bacxkground check. Not "eveyone" passes. I don't want to arm everyone either but I do want everyone that is educated in their use and can do so responsibly to be allowed the right to do so.

Okay well how is that different than what the country is doing now?

When someone says "Arming everyone", I think of issuing a person a pistol and a flash class on gun safety.

And if not, introducing people to that kind of knowledge could easily be more dangerous than helpful.

I'm all for education, but people get super low at times and make rash decisions. And it's best for them NOT to have access to a life ender like a firearm.

To go a little abstract... It's like locks on a front door. They're going to keep honest people out of your house. But someone that really wants to get in and take your flat screen? They'll get in.

 

[JackOfNoTrades]

Take a class, buy a gun and register it. Go to the range and learn how to use/practice with it. Better to be safe than sorry IMO.

Something as simple as a 38 Special will suffice

I've seriously considered it. I live in NY and I believe you need a pistol permit, which is very difficult to obtain. I've run the idea of getting a rifle by my wife for home protection, she's not thrilled but understands.....the consideration continues and grows as I hear more and more instances on how horrible and dangerous people can be.

 

[Tabascocat]

I've seriously considered it. I live in NY and I believe you need a pistol permit, which is very difficult to obtain. I've run the idea of getting a rifle by my wife for home protection, she's not thrilled but understands.....the consideration continues and grows as I hear more and more instances on how horrible and dangerous people can be.

I hear ya. It was difficult to carry-over my license from Texas to California. A whole lot of paperwork and still can't remove it from my home. Almost impossible to get a conceal permit here.

As for the rifle for home protection, scratch that. Just get a shotgun if you go that route.

 

[iceberg]

nothing about this topic is facetious and yes, I have very little experience with guns. The question to me was what would I change and they were spitball ideas. Do you have any ideas on what changes could be made to lessen the potential for high powered gun aiding dangerous people being so lethal? I'm seriously interested.

yes. i have a very strong idea on what to do.

you must take a 3 day long gun safety course that will involve the history of guns, evolution and into what firearms we have today.
you must have 16 hours in a range with a certified instructor teaching you gun safety, the parts that make them up, cleaning and maintenance
you must now spend 40 hours going over the current laws we have on the books so you understand them, how they're enforced and common misconceptions about firearms as well as real safety points.
then you must pass with a score of 90 out of 100 a written test and show to an instructor proper safety techniques and general marksmanship skills in aiming and firing a weapon.

then AND ONLY THEN should any congressman or senator be allowed to sit on a committee that is crying out for more guns laws.

once we get this straightened out, then we can work on "common sense" laws for you and me.

i know this may be deemed political and if it needs to be removed because of that, i completely understand.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

It's not up to you to consider what is or isn't a "true Muslim" - Muslim has branches, all of which believe to be "true Muslims" and fight among one another. Secondly, the KKK was not just motivated by Christianity, it was a racist and bigoted movement, but it's not equatable to modern day Islam and attempting to equate it is...absurd. Heck, it's not even equatable to modern day Christianity in Africa.

And NO ONE here said "all Muslims", easily the most overused counter-arguments out there right now after these events.

I'd advise you to, instead of simply "skyping" a friend, actually doing some research. How about starting with Pew Research? http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

I've done a crap load of research, and not just reading, but speaking with Muslims in person. The end result of if it is always that Muslims don't support terrorism any more than Christians do. These groups like al Quaida and ISIS are political groups using religion as an excuse for violence. That's precisely what the KKK is doing. Yet we don't call the KKK "Christian terrorists" because that would be unjust to Christians, the vast majority of whom don't support that. The exact same thing is true of Muslims. The vast majority don't support it either, but because of our bias against them we use terms like "Islamic terrorist." Muslims have just as much incentive as anyone else to stop terrorism. They're the victims of it even more often than we are. ISIS has murdered more Muslims than Christians. That's because if you're a Muslim who doesn't accept their radical agenda, you're just as much a target as any Christian, Jew, Atheist, etc.

 

[mattjames2010]

and conveniently enough, there's no pew research dating back to when the KKK was at it's peak or even as recently as the 1960s. It's easy to point out fundamentalists that belong to a different religion, or even fundamentalists that belong to your religion, but are half way around the world.



The link you posted with the research, shows that "Muslims around the world strongly reject suicide bombing." Many of the countries with numbers higher than 10% are countries that have seen repeated bombings from other countries, many of which are majority Christian/Jewish, coincidence, right? We see it all the time, even seen it in this thread, where when blood is spilled, the only option some are willing to turn to, is more blood. Kill their innocents, maybe then they'll stop. Well, news flash, we've been killing their innocents. Don't get me wrong, clearly people who are willing to carry out these acts aren't innocent and deserve death and you *could* even make the argument that some of the children would grow up and become terrorists as well (I wouldn't, but many would), but we have undoubtedly killed scores of innocents in that region and then we blame the religion for preaching violence. If Islam dominated the world the way Christianity does, it very well could be the same type/level of violence, you can easily point out portions

I have never said the majority DO advocate bombing, you're misunderstanding here. I said SOME sympathize with extremism, while millions more support backwards laws. Here is the link with better details.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

It is NOT about Muslims supporting terrorism alone, it's about Muslims sympathizing with terrorist groups while others agree with outrageous laws and punishments.

Look, the discussion of KKK is simply not going to happen. You can have it with someone else. It. Is. Not. Relevant! It's not comparable to Islamic terrorism. One is defined as a hate group, the other is an ideology of over 1 billion people, including backwards thinking and extremist attacks. There is a reason why there is a distinction between hate groups and terrorism. Yes, both are bad in their own ways, but they are not comparable.

It's the same as the jerks bringing up "mass shootings in America" after the Paris attacks. There are differences and it's completely simplistic thinking to compare the two.

 

[mattjames2010]

I've done a crap load of research, and not just reading, but speaking with Muslims in person. The end result of if it is always that Muslims don't support terrorism any more than Christians do. These groups like al Quaida and ISIS are political groups using religion as an excuse for violence. That's precisely what the KKK is doing. Yet we don't call the KKK "Christian terrorists" because that would be unjust to Christians, the vast majority of whom don't support that. The exact same thing is true of Muslims. The vast majority don't support it either, but because of our bias against them we use terms like "Islamic terrorist." Muslims have just as much incentive as anyone else to stop terrorism. They're the victims of it even more often than we are. ISIS has murdered more Muslims than Christians. That's because if you're a Muslim who doesn't accept their radical agenda, you're just as much a target as any Christian, Jew, Atheist, etc.

Do you understand the difference between the KKK and terrorist groups? Here is a good read on the differences: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33205339

And ONCE AGAIN, it is NOT about Muslims supporting extremist groups. It's the amount of Muslims who support backward laws: I will post the link again, http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

The values within many Muslim dominated countries is NOT compatible with western values and it will clash. We have seen this in both Sweden and Germany. It is not working! You take a group of people with beliefs from centuries ago and drop them into the modern age, it's like Jurassic Park.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Even more worrisome that the FBI has been watching him for three years

I understand the FBI's dilemma... I mean what do they do?

The guy is a US citizen... You can't just toss him in the slammer on a whim.

The fact is no matter what action someone or some entity takes it's going to cost all of us something.

The question is what are you (I'm not asking you personally Dex, but society in total) comfortable paying?

Wanna pay higher taxes to pay for increased enforcement?

Want to give up some personal freedoms to enact tougher gun control laws and/or electronic surveillance?

Do you want to be able to incarcerate someone based on someone else saying they know this person is a threat?

There are no easy answers.

 

[JoeKing]

Okay well how is that different than what the country is doing now?

When someone says "Arming everyone", I think of issuing a person a pistol and a flash class on gun safety.

And if not, introducing people to that kind of knowledge could easily be more dangerous than helpful.

I'm all for education, but people get super low at times and make rash decisions. And it's best for them NOT to have access to a life ender like a firearm.

To go a little abstract... It's like locks on a front door. They're going to keep honest people out of your house. But someone that really wants to get in and take your flat screen? They'll get in.

My thinking on arming society is not what you are thinking. First is education and it's not just a flashcard. You already know this if you have a CCL. Once you have passes this training, then and only then may you posses a firearm.

It doesn't take a firearm for someone depressed to make a rash decision... that can be done with a knife, a bat, a golf club, a rock. These can be just as deadly yet free of red tape to possess. My firearm stays locked up at home. I have a can of wasp spray to guard my front door.

I don't know how you figure an uneducated society is less dangerous. It's the stupid ones that are dangerous. I guess I have more faith in my fellow mankind than you do.

As for your locked front door theory... Honest people won't need to be kept out and the ones that really want to get in do so at their own risk in my neighborhood. I have a security alarm and armed neighbors that have written permission to protect my property when I'm not there.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

You never know. Security forces are just people too. They likely were not thinking "mass shooter tonight; gotta be on top of things".

They were probably as shocked and scared as anyone. Unless someone's been in a situation like that as part of a police (or more accurately SWAT force) or military-- I don't know how you'd actually be prepared.

Not like security makes top dollars.

That's true. You want minimum wage rent-a-cops deciding on if they draw their gun and shoot someone?

 

[JoeKing]

That's true. You want minimum wage rent-a-cops deciding on if they draw their gun and shoot someone?

An armed guard doing his job properly must have the mindframe that tonight is the night that it goes down. Situational awareness is job one.

Society needs to be more vigilant too. Even if it's just noting where all the emergency exits are in a club before you start partying, it makes a difference.

 

[Tabascocat]

We have a good discussion going on here, lets leave out the KKK and Christianity please so we can keep this thread alive

 

[rynochop]

I'm surprised there hasn't been any inside the club cell phone footage surface yet. I'm sure a bunch of people had their video running while partying.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

An armed guard doing his job properly must have the mindframe that tonight is the night that it goes down. Situational awareness is job one.

Society needs to be more vigilant too. Even if it's just noting where all the emergency exits are in a club before you start partying, it makes a difference.

So you're going to have one of these guys at every bar?... mall?... movie theater?... on a crowded main street? any place where people congregate.

And all of them (security personnel) are going to need to have the "mind-frame" to shoot first and ask questions later?

That is one mighty tall order.

My daughter was a sergeant in the army for a decade... I asked her what percentage of her comrades would she trust to be able to make smart decisions when it came time to judging the threat of a potential mass-shooter.

She laughed.

And these are trained soldiers.

 

[Dallas_Cowboys50]

pretty sure it's illegal to carry in a bar or anywhere that serves alcohol for obvious reasons.

right, and it shouldnt be......gun free zones are just asinine

 

[Dallas_Cowboys50]

No, this is why everyone inclined to do so should be allowed to carry after they have completed the proper training coarse. What you are suggesting is just brining back the wild wild west.

and in the wild West you couldnt just walk into a saloon and kill everybody, youd be lucky to get 2 people before the rest riddled you with bullets.....and then fed your carcass to the coyotes.....

 

[Nova]

My thinking on arming society is not what you are thinking. First is education and it's not just a flashcard. You already know this if you have a CCL. Once you have passes this training, then and only then may you posses a firearm.

Nope. Don't have a CHL. Never felt the need to have one honestly. I'm a recreational shooter. That said, I understand the difficulty of obtaining a CHL.

So we're not really talking about the same thing.

Again, I'm arguing "arming everyone". You're, seemingly arguing, stricter laws for obtaining firearms.

It doesn't take a firearm for someone depressed to make a rash decision... that can be done with a knife, a bat, a golf club, a rock. These can be just as deadly yet free of red tape to possess. My firearm stays locked up at home. I have a can of wasp spray to guard my front door.

I don't know how you figure an uneducated society is less dangerous. It's the stupid ones that are dangerous. I guess I have more faith in my fellow mankind than you do.

You probably do have more faith in mankind than I do. Because, again, I don't think the policies are the problem.

This guy knew how to use a firearm. Education was not his problem.

Educating a dangerous individual is only halfway to getting him there.

And that's what you're doing with a mass education route. (Which is what I was initially arguing against, but you might be arguing something else).

The respect you and I have for firearms didn't come from education but rather from a mentor or possibly just from within. You lose that with mass education.

As for your locked front door theory... Honest people won't need to be kept out and the ones that really want to get in do so at their own risk in my neighborhood. I have a security alarm and armed neighbors that have written permission to protect my property when I'm not there.

It's an expression. Honestly I've never understood the "honest people" part, but the point remains valid. Bad people sometimes find a way to do bad stuff. Don't make that avenue easier. Because there are tons of bad people who don't do terrible things out of laziness, apathy or the inability to do so.

 

[Hoofbite]

Nobody cares about area 51? I didn't know you were the designated spokesperson for "everyone" that could possible care about such things. You make such a piss poor argument. The distance people travel is of no consequence if the wall stops them once they get there. It can be done if the willpower existed to do it right. As to your other point, landfills don't keep anyone out, folks go there as they please to dump their garbage. Again, you make a piss poor argument.

My point was the vast majority of people have no reason to go to a landfill, just like Area 51. The fact that there is a secure perimeter at Area 51 doesn't make much of a difference because there isn't a great number of people who even care to actually go there.

I'm sorry if you believe a wall will stop people but it won't and it has nothing to do with a lack of willpower. People who will travel great distance will most certainly get around the wall because the wall ends and you can't even possibly think it's realistic to defend such a great span. Never mind that there are legal means to travel to the US and never go back. Wall does nothing to stop them.

 

[JoeKing]

So you're going to have one of these guys at every bar?... mall?... movie theater?... on a crowded main street? any place where people congregate.

And all of them (security personnel) are going to need to have the "mind-frame" to shoot first and ask questions later?

That is one mighty tall order.

My daughter was a sergeant in the army for a decade... I asked her what percentage of her comrades would she trust to be able to make smart decisions when it came time to judging the threat of a potential mass-shooter.

She laughed.

And these are trained soldiers.

The unemployed Vets of this country are a perfect match. Educated with firearms and the right disposition to get the job done right. I'd still have a screening proccess but this is a vastly qualified under-employed community.

If you think the right "mind-frame" is to shoot first and ask questions later then you are clueless to the right qualifications are to be armed security.

The majority of females in my military units were equally as clueless as your daughter.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

Do you understand the difference between the KKK and terrorist groups? [snip] drop them into the modern age, it's like Jurassic Park.

There is no difference between the KKK and terrorist groups. The KKK IS a terrorist group. They commit acts of violence to further a political agenda. That, by definition, is terrorism, and they use religion as an excuse. According to them, they're doing what God wants, they're full of ****, of course. White supremacists almost always claim that God wants black and white people to stay apart from one another.

Nice that you brought up Germany. I used to live there. I met numerous people from Turkey, Morocco, and other Muslim countries who had immigrated to Germany. What's not working is the bigotry that they face. They are not terrorists. Most of them are not refusing to learn German or to integrate. There are currently no Islamic politicians in Germany attempting to impose Sharia Law on Germany. There are only fear mongers claiming that.

You're muddying the waters. The issue isn't about how well or poorly people from Muslim and western countries can integrate. That's an issue of immigration and of the laws of those countries. It's about whether terrorist groups like al Quaida represent the general interests of Muslims. The answer is an emphatic "no" as you can see by by links. Whenever there's a terrorist attack, Muslims the world over condemn it and try desperately not to be associated with it, and most of our press ignores them, painting a false picture that the world's 1.6 billion Muslims are out to get us, or that a significant number are. Here are some links for you:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/muslim-clerics-condemn-terrorism_us_566adfa1e4b009377b249dea

http://www.freemuslims.org/

http://www.m-a-t.org/