McShay Releases 1st Mock; Cowboys Take CB Kevin Johnson

supercowboy8

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Watch the Missouri game from this year. Dupree looks more like a 3-4 OLB than a 43 DE. He is best out of a 2 point stance standing wide jn the 9 position. This gives him more of a straight shot at the QB. When he has to line up in a 3 or 4 point he gets locked up and has to fight to get off. He doesn't have any pass rush moves.
It's either run right by you or just keep fighting for a coverage sack.
Look at his only sack in the game was where the QB ran around for 12 seconds.

Also he kills kentucky with his over pursuit. They bait him in and throw the screen to his side. Mizzu just kept hitting him with thay. Just let him come free and throw a screen to his side. Not a 1st rounder in my book.
 

chuch

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Your video hurts your case.

1st it's vs vandy. Vandy is not a mecca of nfl talent or NFL caliber OTs.
2nd he had 1 play where he ran right by a no name RT to get a sack where #94 smith was also right there. Does that make Smith a 1st round talent.

Also did you see him do anything g else in that clip. Like his sack at around the .40 second mark was a scramble coverage sack like he gets the most because he has great 2nd effort and doesn't give up. I like that in his I do.
But he had to much where he just late off the line of snap. Where he didn't set the edge vs the run. I never see any consistency out him. Some times he looks amazing then he just looks lien a JAG.

I agree he has potential but I don't waste a 1st on him. Hasn't shown that he is worth it.

1. The clip exemplified his quickness off the snap, because you said:
He isn't quick off the line
, not whether or not he can beat elite tackles.
2. I suppose if you're assuming I use your methodology of evaluating player, based on box stats and cursory observation without context, then... maybe Z'Darius Smith is a first round talent. I'd have to look up his sack numbers and form a rigid opinion of the player with little thought into how much he can develop.
3. It's true he didn't beat his man in that play at the :40 mark from what I understand Dupree is the only DE that can't win his match-up every time, god forbid he continue trying to make the play.
4. If this is a highlight clip, like you dismissively called it in an earlier post, why are there negative plays as well? It is because this is a "cut up" where all the plays by a player are edited together to save time. I'm surprised you're not familiar with them.

This was his first year playing DE. He has displayed the ability to do things well and get exceptional burst off the line, there's is no reason to believe that if after 1 year he hasn't learned how to do it consistently, he never will.
 

chuch

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Watch the Missouri game from this year. Dupree looks more like a 3-4 OLB than a 43 DE. He is best out of a 2 point stance standing wide jn the 9 position. This gives him more of a straight shot at the QB. When he has to line up in a 3 or 4 point he gets locked up and has to fight to get off. He doesn't have any pass rush moves.
It's either run right by you or just keep fighting for a coverage sack.
Look at his only sack in the game was where the QB ran around for 12 seconds.

Also he kills kentucky with his over pursuit. They bait him in and throw the screen to his side. Mizzu just kept hitting him with thay. Just let him come free and throw a screen to his side. Not a 1st rounder in my book.

I've already seen the mizzou tape and again this is his second year playing DE. They throw the screen behind him because he is aggressive rushing the passer which is what the Cowboys would be looking for. Staying disciplined while rushing the passer is something the players already on the Cowboys sometimes need coaching for.

You can't teach the athleticism that he has. His hand technique is terrible but can be improved.
 

supercowboy8

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I've already seen the mizzou tape and again this is his second year playing DE. They throw the screen behind him because he is aggressive rushing the passer which is what the Cowboys would be looking for. Staying disciplined while rushing the passer is something the players already on the Cowboys sometimes need coaching for.

You can't teach the athleticism that he has. His hand technique is terrible but can be improved.

Yes he can be improved and yes he has talent. I have said that. But he isn't a 1st round pick. Jerry and Garrett has both said q's round picks needs to be day 1 starters. He isn't a guy that can start day 1. He's a rotation DE right now. Which is why I say he isn't a 1st round pick.

Lots of guys get drafted in the 1st based on athleticism and potential and they bust. Larry English was the greatest athletic DE you would ever see. Look what happened to him.
 

supercowboy8

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1. The clip exemplified his quickness off the snap, because you said: , not whether or not he can beat elite tackles.
2. I suppose if you're assuming I use your methodology of evaluating player, based on box stats and cursory observation without context, then... maybe Z'Darius Smith is a first round talent. I'd have to look up his sack numbers and form a rigid opinion of the player with little thought into how much he can develop.
3. It's true he didn't beat his man in that play at the :40 mark from what I understand Dupree is the only DE that can't win his match-up every time, god forbid he continue trying to make the play.
4. If this is a highlight clip, like you dismissively called it in an earlier post, why are there negative plays as well? It is because this is a "cut up" where all the plays by a player are edited together to save time. I'm surprised you're not familiar with them.

This was his first year playing DE. He has displayed the ability to do things well and get exceptional burst off the line, there's is no reason to believe that if after 1 year he hasn't learned how to do it consistently, he never will.
Ok that doesn't make him a 1st round pick.
Yes I expect a 1st round pick to beat vanderbilt off the line and cause havoc every play. I expect a nfl stater to beat a non nfl player every snap. If he is a q's rounder then your saying he can start in the nfl today. I'm saying he can not. He will get stone walled vs NFL OTs and his quickness is all he has. Until he has other pass rush moves he isn't a 1st rounder.
I would like to have him. Just not in the 1st round.
 

unionjack8

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dupree is the real deal imo and is explosive off the ball. an ideal fit in this scheme
 

nablives

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No thanks. Give me a quality player that can improve my defensive front 7.
 

supercowboy8

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dupree is the real deal imo and is explosive off the ball. an ideal fit in this scheme

Dupre is the marcus smith of last year. Has no pass rushing moves and terrible in a 3 point sance. The guy is just quickness. Best standing up and playing wide. If he can't get the edge he is done. Also he is late of the line. Quick yes but his reaction time is terrible.
Dupre is a bust. Move on and watch other players. Dupre disappears vs top teams and is also terrible vs the run.

Not what this team uses
 

ghst187

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Considering we've gone both routes recently now, we've gotten burned both times (i.e. drafting Mo with our first and spending big $ on Carr in FA). Despite our experience with Carr, I'd rather use Carr's cap savings to go get another FA CB and draft DL early and maybe often.
 

supercowboy8

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Considering we've gone both routes recently now, we've gotten burned both times (i.e. drafting Mo with our first and spending big $ on Carr in FA). Despite our experience with Carr, I'd rather use Carr's cap savings to go get another FA CB and draft DL early and maybe often.

But who. This FA CB class is weak. I would rather spend the money on our own players.

Also we don't need a 1st round CB. We can find a quality player in the 2nd and 3rd.

Alex carter, Quinton Rollins, Senquez Golson, are just a few.

Look at where marinelli been the last 10 years he has never spent a early pick on a CB.
 

ghst187

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But who. This FA CB class is weak. I would rather spend the money on our own players.

Also we don't need a 1st round CB. We can find a quality player in the 2nd and 3rd.

Alex carter, Quinton Rollins, Senquez Golson, are just a few.

Look at where marinelli been the last 10 years he has never spent a early pick on a CB.

i hope you're right! I want the early picks spent on the trenches
 

boysfan69

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hey ppl if we are talking bout a corner in the first or second round then maybe we need to look at PJ Williams playes at Florida ST now at Saftey i like Kurtis Drummond from Michigan ST
 

chuch

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Dupre is the marcus smith of last year. Has no pass rushing moves and terrible in a 3 point sance. The guy is just quickness. Best standing up and playing wide. If he can't get the edge he is done. Also he is late of the line. Quick yes but his reaction time is terrible.
Dupre is a bust. Move on and watch other players. Dupre disappears vs top teams and is also terrible vs the run.

Not what this team uses

Dupre is the marcus smith of last year.
is also terrible vs the run.


It's funny that you should mention Marcus Smith who was a major liability in run coverage which is the overwhelming flaw in Orchards game, the player you and others have been championing as a first round pick. Before it is blindly denied that Orchard is a liability in run defense. Like Smith Orchard has to commit to a move immediately if he's going to get home. i've linked a clip including all the plays orchard was involved in from the UCLA game this year in the link below. I counted at least 5 instances where Orchard is completely washed out of a run directed towards him. I also noticed a single play where he set the edge and made a tackle for no gain. Granted, his responsibility on any given play cannot be known but I highly doubt being bullied 5 yards back from the line of scrimmage is by design. When watching keep in mind that he has been playing defensive end for the entirety of his 4 year collegiate career.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/nate-orchard-vs-ucla-2014/

If in four years Orchard couldn't maintain the size/speed combination necessary to rush the passer, set the edge and play the run on the way to the QB what makes you think he'll be able to play four downs at DE at the next level? Orchard is too slight of stature and is going to be a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 or a 3-4 and may never become a great run blocker.

Has no pass rushing moves and terrible in a 3 point sance. The guy is just quickness. Best standing up and playing wide. If he can't get the edge he is done. Also he is late of the line. Quick yes but his reaction time is terrible.

Dupree is actually very good against the run, anchors well and is assignment sound. In the links I've posted you'll see Louisville consistently run away from Dupree regardless of where he lines up. The run at him twice when he's on the line. Once in the second quarter. He tackles Dyer high behind the line but doesn't have enough behind it to keep him out of the endzone. You'll also see a sack and two strips by Dupree. The second time is in the fourth on the GL. Dupree sheds the TE and goes inside but he's late.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip5o_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-2q_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip63_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-3q_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip6x_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-4q_sport

If watching the whole game is too much work to go through to be proven wrong then here are his plays from the Florida game in his first year playing DE with his hand in the ground. In the cutup you'll see him set the edge in obvious rushing situations, explode off the line in clear passing situations, fight through a hold to make the sack, continue collapsing the pocket when his first move doesn't work, and use an inside move to bounce a runner to the outside. However he does crash down on the RB on a couple of option plays and miss making the play on the QB.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/alvin-dupree-vs-florida-2013/

[Dupree is] Best standing up and playing wide.

How do you judge whether he is better standing up vs. playing with his hand in the ground? How can you disambiguate what is due to him standing up vs. the experience starting the second year in a different position? These are variable confounds. Can you elaborate on what you're looking for in terms of bend, extension, and when to turn the corner on the path of his speed rush?


Dupre disappears vs top teams

Dupree has 3.5 sacks and 7.0 TFL against winning FBS teams and 4.0 sacks 5.5 TFL against Non-winning FBS teams. approximately half of his games (6/11) have been against winning FBS schools and half of his production comes against winning FBS schools. These schools include Mississippi State, Louisville, Missouri, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt. 8 of his 12.5 TFL and all of his sacks against winning teams came in the second half of the season against all the ranked opponents, if anything he has improved substantially throughout the season.

Dupree hasn't played a single down in the NFL. How is he a bust? You think he is a bust the same way you thought he was slow until you actually watched him and changed your tune in previous posts. I'd give you your own advice to stop watching highlights and start watching the film but from your posts I don't think you're even watching highlights.

I really couldn't care less if you say he's a not a first-round pick or a bust but some of what you're saying about his game is patently false.

Not what this team uses

I'd actually agree with this. The lack of speed on the edge is probably why we aren't seeing Quarterbacks pressured enough.
 

supercowboy8

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It's funny that you should mention Marcus Smith who was a major liability in run coverage which is the overwhelming flaw in Orchards game, the player you and others have been championing as a first round pick. Before it is blindly denied that Orchard is a liability in run defense. Like Smith Orchard has to commit to a move immediately if he's going to get home. i've linked a clip including all the plays orchard was involved in from the UCLA game this year in the link below. I counted at least 5 instances where Orchard is completely washed out of a run directed towards him. I also noticed a single play where he set the edge and made a tackle for no gain. Granted, his responsibility on any given play cannot be known but I highly doubt being bullied 5 yards back from the line of scrimmage is by design. When watching keep in mind that he has been playing defensive end for the entirety of his 4 year collegiate career.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/nate-orchard-vs-ucla-2014/

If in four years Orchard couldn't maintain the size/speed combination necessary to rush the passer, set the edge and play the run on the way to the QB what makes you think he'll be able to play four downs at DE at the next level? Orchard is too slight of stature and is going to be a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 or a 3-4 and may never become a great run blocker.



Dupree is actually very good against the run, anchors well and is assignment sound. In the links I've posted you'll see Louisville consistently run away from Dupree regardless of where he lines up. The run at him twice when he's on the line. Once in the second quarter. He tackles Dyer high behind the line but doesn't have enough behind it to keep him out of the endzone. You'll also see a sack and two strips by Dupree. The second time is in the fourth on the GL. Dupree sheds the TE and goes inside but he's late.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip5o_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-2q_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip63_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-3q_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip6x_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-4q_sport

If watching the whole game is too much work to go through to be proven wrong then here are his plays from the Florida game in his first year playing DE with his hand in the ground. In the cutup you'll see him set the edge in obvious rushing situations, explode off the line in clear passing situations, fight through a hold to make the sack, continue collapsing the pocket when his first move doesn't work, and use an inside move to bounce a runner to the outside. However he does crash down on the RB on a couple of option plays and miss making the play on the QB.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/alvin-dupree-vs-florida-2013/



How do you judge whether he is better standing up vs. playing with his hand in the ground? How can you disambiguate what is due to him standing up vs. the experience starting the second year in a different position? These are variable confounds. Can you elaborate on what you're looking for in terms of bend, extension, and when to turn the corner on the path of his speed rush?




Dupree has 3.5 sacks and 7.0 TFL against winning FBS teams and 4.0 sacks 5.5 TFL against Non-winning FBS teams. approximately half of his games (6/11) have been against winning FBS schools and half of his production comes against winning FBS schools. These schools include Mississippi State, Louisville, Missouri, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt. 8 of his 12.5 TFL and all of his sacks against winning teams came in the second half of the season against all the ranked opponents, if anything he has improved substantially throughout the season.

Dupree hasn't played a single down in the NFL. How is he a bust? You think he is a bust the same way you thought he was slow until you actually watched him and changed your tune in previous posts. I'd give you your own advice to stop watching highlights and start watching the film but from your posts I don't think you're even watching highlights.

I really couldn't care less if you say he's a not a first-round pick or a bust but some of what you're saying about his game is patently false.



I'd actually agree with this. The lack of speed on the edge is probably why we aren't seeing Quarterbacks pressured enough.


It's easy to see if he plays better standing up besides his hand in the dirt. Dupree is faster standing upand plays wider. He can get past the OT better. Now with his hand in the dirt he his late off the ball. OR gets his hands on Dupree then Dupree has no pass rusu movea to beat the OT. Now what I do like is the fact he doesn't stop fighting. He gets most of his sacks as coverage sacks 2nd effort.

I saw the Louisville game live. He made some good plays but not 1st round plays IMO. He needs more pass rush moves oother than just speed.

I like him I just don't think he's 1st round talent as a 4-3 DE I think he will get over drafted as a 3-4 OLB.he's better rushing standing up on his feet. A 34 team will fall in love with him just like Philippines did with Marcus Smith.

Where did I say he would be a bust. You wrote a lot and took a lot of time for some wgo doesn't care what I think. But it's nice to see you show your love for your man crush.
 

supercowboy8

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It's funny that you should mention Marcus Smith who was a major liability in run coverage which is the overwhelming flaw in Orchards game, the player you and others have been championing as a first round pick. Before it is blindly denied that Orchard is a liability in run defense. Like Smith Orchard has to commit to a move immediately if he's going to get home. i've linked a clip including all the plays orchard was involved in from the UCLA game this year in the link below. I counted at least 5 instances where Orchard is completely washed out of a run directed towards him. I also noticed a single play where he set the edge and made a tackle for no gain. Granted, his responsibility on any given play cannot be known but I highly doubt being bullied 5 yards back from the line of scrimmage is by design. When watching keep in mind that he has been playing defensive end for the entirety of his 4 year collegiate career.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/nate-orchard-vs-ucla-2014/

If in four years Orchard couldn't maintain the size/speed combination necessary to rush the passer, set the edge and play the run on the way to the QB what makes you think he'll be able to play four downs at DE at the next level? Orchard is too slight of stature and is going to be a situational pass rusher in a 4-3 or a 3-4 and may never become a great run blocker.



Dupree is actually very good against the run, anchors well and is assignment sound. In the links I've posted you'll see Louisville consistently run away from Dupree regardless of where he lines up. The run at him twice when he's on the line. Once in the second quarter. He tackles Dyer high behind the line but doesn't have enough behind it to keep him out of the endzone. You'll also see a sack and two strips by Dupree. The second time is in the fourth on the GL. Dupree sheds the TE and goes inside but he's late.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip5o_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-2q_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip63_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-3q_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2bip6x_2014-kentucky-at-louisville-4q_sport

If watching the whole game is too much work to go through to be proven wrong then here are his plays from the Florida game in his first year playing DE with his hand in the ground. In the cutup you'll see him set the edge in obvious rushing situations, explode off the line in clear passing situations, fight through a hold to make the sack, continue collapsing the pocket when his first move doesn't work, and use an inside move to bounce a runner to the outside. However he does crash down on the RB on a couple of option plays and miss making the play on the QB.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/alvin-dupree-vs-florida-2013/



How do you judge whether he is better standing up vs. playing with his hand in the ground? How can you disambiguate what is due to him standing up vs. the experience starting the second year in a different position? These are variable confounds. Can you elaborate on what you're looking for in terms of bend, extension, and when to turn the corner on the path of his speed rush?




Dupree has 3.5 sacks and 7.0 TFL against winning FBS teams and 4.0 sacks 5.5 TFL against Non-winning FBS teams. approximately half of his games (6/11) have been against winning FBS schools and half of his production comes against winning FBS schools. These schools include Mississippi State, Louisville, Missouri, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt. 8 of his 12.5 TFL and all of his sacks against winning teams came in the second half of the season against all the ranked opponents, if anything he has improved substantially throughout the season.

Dupree hasn't played a single down in the NFL. How is he a bust? You think he is a bust the same way you thought he was slow until you actually watched him and changed your tune in previous posts. I'd give you your own advice to stop watching highlights and start watching the film but from your posts I don't think you're even watching highlights.

I really couldn't care less if you say he's a not a first-round pick or a bust but some of what you're saying about his game is patently false.



I'd actually agree with this. The lack of speed on the edge is probably why we aren't seeing Quarterbacks pressured enough.


You need to watch orchard play. He lines up as NY and holds his lanes sometimes. You want to talk stats. Compare Orchard and Dupeee. OR card killed Andres Peat a 1st round OT. Who has Dupree ever beat that's NFL talent?

I watched the Florida link. What was I suppose to see. Him get 1 sack and the rest of the game do nothing. I saw Florida run rright at Dupree and he gets shshoved out the way. The Missouri game this year not 2013 he was pushed around like a doll


Sorry guy but your wrong on your love feast for Dupree he isn't that good.

Orchard came in as a WR so no he wasn't playing DE his whole career.
 

supercowboy8

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Would you like to compare Dupree and orchard.
Dupree has nevery had a 2 sack or more game. Orchard has had 5 this season. UCLA and Stanford was 2 of thone games.
Dupree has just 7.5 sacks 12.5 tackles for loss
Orchard leads the nation in sacks at 18.5 and 21 tackles for loss
Dupree is 6-4 264
Orchard is 6-4 256

Pretty much the same size.

Theven reason I like Orchard is obvious if your have a good football eye. He's fast off the edye but has good pass rush moves and strong hands. He can swim aand also watch the UCLA game and watch his inside move that gets him 2 sacsacks almost 3.
Watch him in othe gages when he lines up as the NT and DT. Watch him use his long arms to gain leverage and the whip the OT down

I like my DE especially if it's a 1st round pick to be more than a 1 trick pony
 

Risen Star

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I'd only be okay with this if we take a cornerback in the 2nd round too.

It's time to get serious about fixing this team.
 

chuch

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You need to watch orchard play. He lines up as NY and holds his lanes sometimes.

At this point I'm not debating you as much as proving you're incredulous as far as admitting you have no idea what you're talking about. It's clear he gets overpowered consistently in the UCLA game, he can't hold his ground against College sized linemen.

OR card killed Andres Peat a 1st round OT. Who has Dupree ever beat that's NFL talent?

Well here's the second quarter from that game (the others have been taken down. But once I find them I'll be sure to, yet again, dispel the notion Orchard is a sack specialist. If anybody has got links to that game please share.



Again in a third down situation he runs himself out of a play on a 3rd and 5 in the first series, gets pushed off the line of scrimmage by Andrus Peat, over pursues the quarterback with a receiver running right beside him to the flat. and beats the right tackle (not Peat) on his 3rd move with the assistance of another D-lineman. Which part of that is domination?

I watched the Florida link. What was I suppose to see. Him get 1 sack and the rest of the game do nothing.

Interesting, so DEs get sacks every play or else do nothing...fascinating. It's no wonder how you can such a refined evaluation of so many players so quickly with such a keen "football eye". The notion that there may be more than one person with this belief is why I've continued posting.

I saw Florida run rright at Dupree and he gets shshoved out the way.

This literally never happens. Give me the time it happens in the video, I'll make a gif and show you that whoever you're looking at, assuming you know what it means to get shoved out of the way, is not Dupree.

The Missouri game this year not 2013 he was pushed around like a doll

Here's that game for any interested parties:



It's true at the :56 mark Dupree gets doubled by the RT and TE and is pushed a yard off the line of scrimmage and can't make the play, at 3:00 he is overaggressive in pursuit inside and loses contain on the edge and at 5:30 he guards the edge on the Maty Mauk run where there are two guards pulling through the inside. I'd admit that Dupree needs to get stronger and be able to shed the edge block sooner but aside from that he was assignment sound for 95% of the game and wasn't rag-dolled once. For anybody reading this please, I implore you, if you see something different tell me the time so I'll know what rag-dolling looks like.

Sorry guy but your wrong on your love feast for Dupree he isn't that good.

He really isn't the best pass rusher in the draft, but he is far more pro ready and has better tools than Orchard.

Where did I say he would be a bust.



Dupre is the marcus smith of last year. Has no pass rushing moves and terrible in a 3 point sance. The guy is just quickness. Best standing up and playing wide. If he can't get the edge he is done. Also he is late of the line. Quick yes but his reaction time is terrible.
Dupre is a bust. Move on and watch other players. Dupre disappears vs top teams and is also terrible vs the run.

Not what this team uses

Right there. Post #29.

A lot of people use that old trope: " You don't know what you're talking about". Well in this case it can be taken quite literally. You don't even know the things you're talking about, how can anyone trust you on the nuances of playing DE?

Like I said, it hasn't been about changing your opinion since my second post. You've made it abundantly clear to me what your evaluation is worth. I'm fairly certain I've proven my point about credibility to anyone who's opinion is worth considering.

At this point I'm more curious about how far you're willing to go with this, ya know, Is there anything else I can disprove? I'm currently looking for evidence of Orchard's devastating swim move and waiting for you to tell me 'Dupree gets pancaked by a RBs' of course I'm not holding my breath since you never provided evidence for any of your claims.

You wrote a lot and took a lot of time for some wgo doesn't care what I think. But it's nice to see you show your love for your man crush.

I enjoy proving my point and watching college play, so this isn't adversarial for me. I can understand why the feeling isn't mutual.

I wish more people would watch the games themselves and come up with original opinions instead of regurgitating what they read from an unreliable source. I'd quote you and say start watching game film instead of highlights but I don't even think your watching those. It's more than box scores dude. I haven't seen Orchard in a professional 1st round mock yet, why do you think paid professionals have overlooked the nations sack leader?

Orchard came in as a WR so no he wasn't playing DE his whole career.

He played WR in High School. I wrote "for the entirety of his four year collegiate career." Pro Tip: Critical reading is essential.

2011-True freshman played in all 13 games, seeing action at defensive end, linebacker and on special teams ... four tackles ... two pass breakups and two tackles against BYU.
- http://www.utahutes.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/nate_orchard_757025.html

that's from the school page. I think they would know.

So yes... He has played DE for his whole college career.
 
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