Mel Kiper on ESPN 103.3

[lzppjb]

He played great against OU. That was a national stage.
He played great against A&M. That was a national stage.

 

[SMCowboy]

Good.

Because I wouldn't say that either.

I said the vasty majority of them are overrated.

How is it that the vast majority are overrated, when I just pointed out more players that are far from overrated, than those that are?

Nathan Vasher (4th round DP, with 5 INT's as a rookie, I would hardly call that overrated.)
Rodrick Babers (4th round DP) how can a 4th round DP be overrated.

Yes, Leonard Davis, Mike Williams, and Quentin Jammer have not lived up to their reputation. But, I just alot more than 3 players that are far from overrated. Next time you say that the vast majority of the players are overrated, get you facts right.

You can't hardly consider Cory Redding (3rd round), Nathan Vasher (4th round), Rodrick Babers (4th round) Chris Simms (33rd pick in the 3rd round) overrated. As had they been perdicted to be great players, they would have gone much earlier in the draft.

 

[wick]

But neither did Larry Brown have a stellar college career like DJ is suppose to have had.

If he's among the top players in the country (which Larry Brown was not) you would expect him to play big on a big stage.

He didn't and that worries me.

He didn't.

Except for the 2001 Holiday Bowl in which he had 8 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 1 pass defended, 1 interception and 1 sack.

Or the 2001 OU game, when he had 8 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 0.5 sack, and 3 quarterback pressures.

Or the 2002 OU game, when he had 12 tackles, 1 interception, 2 passes defended, and 1 quarterback pressure.

Or the 2002 KSU game, when he had 14 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 2 sacks, and 3 quarterback pressures.

Or the 2002 Cotton Bowl, when he had 9 tackles, 3 tackles for loss, 1 interception, and 1 pass defended.

Or the 2003 Arkansas game, when he had 14 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, and 1 quarterback pressure.

Or the 2003 KSU game, when he had 10 tackles, 3 tackles for loss, and one pass defended.

Or the 2003 OU game, when he had 11 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 2 fumbles recovered, 1 interception, and 3 passes defended.

Or the 2003 Nebraska game, when he had 11 tackles, 4 tackles for loss, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception, 1 pass defended, and 4 quarterback pressures.

Or the 2003 Holiday Bowl, when he had 9 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 1 pass defended, and 1 quarterback pressure.

Or the 2004 Arkansas game, when he had 14 tackles and 1 forced fumble.

Or the 2004 OU game, when he had 16 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 1 forced fumble and 1 interception.

Or the 2004 Texas A&M game, when he had 10 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 2 passes defended, 1 blocked kick, 1 sack, and 1 quarterback pressure.

 

[jterrell]

He didn't.

Except for the 2001 Holiday Bowl in which he had 8 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 1 pass defended, 1 interception and 1 sack.

Or the 2001 OU game, when he had 8 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 0.5 sack, and 3 quarterback pressures.

Or the 2002 OU game, when he had 12 tackles, 1 interception, 2 passes defended, and 1 quarterback pressure.

Or the 2002 KSU game, when he had 14 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 2 sacks, and 3 quarterback pressures.

Or the 2002 Cotton Bowl, when he had 9 tackles, 3 tackles for loss, 1 interception, and 1 pass defended.

Or the 2003 Arkansas game, when he had 14 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, and 1 quarterback pressure.

Or the 2003 KSU game, when he had 10 tackles, 3 tackles for loss, and one pass defended.

Or the 2003 OU game, when he had 11 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 2 fumbles recovered, 1 interception, and 3 passes defended.

Or the 2003 Nebraska game, when he had 11 tackles, 4 tackles for loss, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception, 1 pass defended, and 4 quarterback pressures.

Or the 2003 Holiday Bowl, when he had 9 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 1 pass defended, and 1 quarterback pressure.

Or the 2004 Arkansas game, when he had 14 tackles and 1 forced fumble.

Or the 2004 OU game, when he had 16 tackles, 1 tackle for loss, 1 forced fumble and 1 interception.

Or the 2004 Texas A&M game, when he had 10 tackles, 2 tackles for loss, 2 passes defended, 1 blocked kick, 1 sack, and 1 quarterback pressure.

Those tackle numbers are a joke because they are UT figures AND they include solo and assists.

I played with Zach Thomas for chrissakes I know when a guy can tackle or not.

 

[jterrell]

He played great against OU. That was a national stage.
He played great against A&M. That was a national stage.

He was not great against OU. He was solid. All those tackles of Peterson after he gained 8 yards aren't exactly special plays. ATM was pretty scrubby not exactly a big time stage. They are a middle of the pack big12 team. Arkansas has been used as well which is comical. They are a non bowl team for chrissakes. Just because they are better against the Horns then they should be doesnt make them any good.

Regardless of all this whining, it doesnt matter. There are Longhorn fans and there are Cowboy fans. Cowboy fans will not want DJ here because he doesnt fit the defense they are going to run any more than they would want Mack Brown coaching the Cowboys.

No homerism is going to change the fact scouts will judge DJ to be pretty much dead on as I described.

 

[Rack]

Those tackle numbers are a joke because they are UT figures AND they include solo and assists.

I played with Zach Thomas for chrissakes I know when a guy can tackle or not.

YOu played with Zack Thomas? That's pretty f'in cool. I played with a current dolphin as well, Bryan Gilmore. Yeah, not the star ZT is, but an NFL player nonetheless.

All those tackles of Peterson after he gained 8 yards aren't exactly special plays.

I don't recall how he did throughout the entire game, but he did have one very nice hit on AP for about a yard gain/loss. It was the hit that sidelined AP for a few plays, and he came back limping after that. Probably gave him a deep thigh bruise. He did great on THAT play, but I don't really recall how he did the rest of the game.


Really though, just cuz the horns lost (again) doesn't mean DJ played poorly. I'm not saying he did or didn't. Just saying the the final score doesnt' necessarily indicate how one player played.

 

[jterrell]

a julian peterson comparison is pretty close also- but as far as style and speed, size etc The best comparison is with derrick brooks- consistent all pro performer who excels due to his speed and ball hawking skills- julian peterson gives you a little more from the rush end position and is more capable of fitting in on a 3-4 than brooks or johnson

BOTH Peterson and Brooks have better pass rushing skills that we know of.

That is the crux of the issue. DJ made plays sideline to sideline but not on the attack, on the react. UT had serious issues getting to the QB this year because they had lost DEs to the draft and graduation. See Kalen Thornton.

Brooks and Peterson both attacked offenses.

 

[jterrell]

Congrats, so was I and 60,000 others.

http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOU04-DerrickJohnson-Hit(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOU04-DerrickJohnson-TFL(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOU04-DerrickJohnson-FF(DivX).avi
http://www.jcdenton41.com/UTvOU04-DerrickJohnson-INT(DivX).avi

Save Link As.

Enjoy.

ROFLMAO.

THANK YOU for making my points for me.
The first clip he hits Peterson low at the hip, doesn't wrap up and Peterson spins forward for 3 more yards.

The second clip he hits Peterson low, doesn't wrap up, but does stop AD in the backfield.

The 3rd clip he chases down fleet footed speedster Jason White at the sideline and punches the ball out for a fumble. Great play but he doesnt even make a tackle or touch White. Just swats the ball.

4th play he grabs a rebound that comes right at him for a pick.

So as a recap we had 2 tackles where contact was made, 0 wrapped up tackles, 1 forced fumble that looked like he wanted to spondoo the ball, 1 pick where he again didnt really hit anyone and ended up out of bounds not even tackled in play.

 

[lzppjb]

DJ made plays sideline to sideline but not on the attack

I guess you just ignored the clips where he ATTACKED the LOS and made a play in the backfield.

 

[Rack]

THANK YOU for making my points for me.
The first clip he hits Peterson low at the hip, doesn't wrap up and Peterson spins forward for 3 more yards.

To be fair, DJ was fighting off a block when he made that hit. He didn't have a free lane to hit the RB. That was a great hit/play.

The second clip he hits Peterson low, doesn't wrap up, but does stop AD in the backfield.

You try to tackle Peterson high and you'll be going for a ride. He should hit him low. But I agree he does need to work on his tackling. But I also said the same thing after watching a few Roy Williams clips before we drafted him, and he was still #1 on my wishlist that year.

The 3rd clip he chases down fleet footed speedster Jason White at the sideline and punches the ball out for a fumble. Great play but he doesnt even make a tackle or touch White. Just swats the ball.

Being a little nitpicky aren't you? It was a great play. No need to look for every possible negative in his game. We could do that with every player in the draft if you want.

 

[jterrell]

YOu played with Zack Thomas? That's pretty f'in cool. I played with a current dolphin as well, Bryan Gilmore. Yeah, not the star ZT is, but an NFL player nonetheless.






I don't recall how he did throughout the entire game, but he did have one very nice hit on AP for about a yard gain/loss. It was the hit that sidelined AP for a few plays, and he came back limping after that. Probably gave him a deep thigh bruise. He did great on THAT play, but I don't really recall how he did the rest of the game.


Really though, just cuz the horns lost (again) doesn't mean DJ played poorly. I'm not saying he did or didn't. Just saying the the final score doesnt' necessarily indicate how one player played.

Yea, Zach is about as smart at diagnosing plays as anyone you will ever meet. He was his very first day as a true freshman.

I actually backed up his older brother Bart Thomas at SS for a while before Bart went to Law School.

I watched the game and DJ made some very nice plays but he wasnt physical which has been the problem for UT against OU. Event he hit you are talking about he went flying in low and hit his hip but didnt wrap up and didnt drive him. AD came back and well the rest is freshman history.

DJ's only job was stopping AD and he couldn't. That is an issue. Not so much the score but the fact he just couldnt get to the ball carrier enough before he had ripped off big gains.

That game is a huge microcosm of his play overall. He's a big play guy and a serious speedster. Unfortunately he just doesnt wrap up or play physical enough for most. At the next level everyone will be bigger stronger and faster. If he dives at a Jerome Bettis' hip like that he is going to have a broken jaw or a dislocated shoulder.


But again, this isnt about like or dislike him. Its about like him or absolutely worship his every word.

No one has suggested he wouldn't be a great pick up at 20. But at 11 a speed LB with a finesse game doesn't fit. BP has only made it clear what types of players he wants for his entire tenure.

And I liked Jammer quite alot and hopped we would draft him. I like Benson quite alot and have been drafting him for us in Madden for 3 years. I even like DJ, just not at 11.

 

[Rack]

Well I do agree he's more of a finesse player, and that that's not what fits the Parcells mold. He also wouldn't be a good fit in a 3-4 defense.


But he is a playmaker. He is a "Dynamic, Explosive" football player. And that is something Parcells does like.

 

[jterrell]

I guess you just ignored the clips where he ATTACKED the LOS and made a play in the backfield.

He diagnosed a running play and filled the hole. That isn't attacking from the snap.

Did you ever play football? Good lord this is football 101 stuff.
A LB, which I was in high school, can rush off the edge, blitz, delay blitz, play pass coverage or read the play. DJ Read the play EVERY snap even the one where he caught the pick in coverage. He stepped up into the hole and put a hit on AD it just wasnt a vicious shot and it wasnt textbook by any means. A lot of coaches would pull a player from a game for not wrapping up.

Remember these are cherry-picked highlights. AD also broke a couple of his tackle attempts and went for big gainers. I am sure OU fans can gladly provide a few of those.

Again re-read my initial scouting report and tell me what conflicts with the highlight reel?

 

[jterrell]

Well I do agree he's more of a finesse player, and that that's not what fits the Parcells mold. He also wouldn't be a good fit in a 3-4 defense.


But he is a playmaker. He is a "Dynamic, Explosive" football player. And that is something Parcells does like.

EXACTLY.
I have never tried to portray him as a scrub. Just as a speed guy who relies more on finesse than power football. I do not think he will fit here with what BP wants to do. But he can certianly be a very good player in the NFL. I am fairly certian they will get him to wrap up on tackles or he will get embarassed. Even Smallish RBs like Brian Westbrook will break through those little dive at the waist attempts if you dont get a hold of anything on the way by.

I was rooting for UT in that Texas-OU game.

 

[lzppjb]

Yes, I played. And I was referring to the other clips that were posted.

 

[jterrell]

Yes, I played. And I was referring to the other clips that were posted.

There are about 20 and I cant save all that to my hard drive.
Suffice it to say I have seen the guy play mnay times including when weighed 220 as a freshman, and even referred to the set of clips presented first which further illuminated my point that DJ is a difference maker but plays more to a finesse game.

By contrast go watch the Boom video and you'll see what I mean.

And FWIW I have an anti-Pac 10 wussball conference bias not anything against Texas.

I'll give you another example.

DJ made an awesome play that was considered probably the best colllege play of the year when he punched the ball free of White, BUT about 2 years ago we played the Titans ands RW was closing on McNair at the sideline. McNair is much, much bugger than White obviously but RW got a good shot in and McNair rolled into some chests on the sideline and did not return. Dallas wins.

Now DJ's play was prettier but who had a bigger impact on the outcome of the game?

Thats finesse versus power.