Mistake not leaving Joseph as the starter

Oz-of-Cowboy-Country

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Joseph has been very good when playing press man coverage. He is a physical, in your face cover corner with the skills to pull it off. That was how he was allowed to play in the past when we saw and applauded his possible development. Then, probably due to injuries, we start playing more zone and more soft coverages.
You put Joseph 8 yards off the ball and you are asking for trouble. He was burned because his aggressiveness was to fly forward and attack, so he got burned on a double move.

If we had benched Brown or Diggs every time they were burned deep, they wouldn’t be the players they are now. I also think we played more zone to have guys looking at the QB because our DEs were losing contain and letting QBs run.

Now we have Brady playing. I’d have Diggs following Evans everywhere. I’d have Joseph playing man and Bland in the slot. Give safety help deep, sometimes 2 deep in halves, sometimes 1 deep and 1 down lower. With Hankins and LVE back, I don’t think we will struggle with TB‘s run game.
Low IQ fans don't realize that any CB playing 8 yards off the ball is going to bite on double moves. It has happened to Diggs several times, but he's given a pass by the fan base.


With KJ is more like the coaches hate his demeanor and are punishing the player as a result. But by not giving him a chance to grow they are hurting the team even more.
 

John813

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ST coach Fassel says KJ is a terrific player to coach...

"I'll take Kelvin Joseph on my ST units a million times out of a million"

And he was taken off the boundary corner role in what, two weeks, after Brown went down?
Quinn has pretty much shadow banned him from the defense and was trying out a week 15 cut corner out there.
He may be great to coach on special teams, where he's had a few dumb penalties, but he was drafted to be a corner, not a gunner.
Coach speak is also BS too. They very rarely put down players publicly. They punish them by taking away snaps.
 

Starforever

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Low IQ fans don't realize that any CB playing 8 yards off the ball is going to bite on double moves. It has happened to Diggs several times, but he's given a pass by the fan base.


With KJ is more like the coaches hate his demeanor and are punishing the player as a result. But by not giving him a chance to grow they are hurting the team even more.
This much is true. You can't put someone out there and expect greatness overnight. Diggs is still being toasted. He is supposed to be an All-Pro.
 

mardwin

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Nashon is the starter there. Joseph blew his opportunity. Yesterday was a preseason approach...Mullen ain't the guy either. Miss AB
From my observation from the last game, Mullen is as good as I am playing corner.
 

coult44

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I’m sorry but Dallas made a huge mistake not letting Joseph get all the reps possible before the playoffs.

Now #2 corner is clearly our biggest weakness headed into the playoffs and as bad as it sounds Kelvin Joseph is still our best option.

For all the hate Anthony Brown received on this forum his loss may be what sends us home early in the playoffs.
I trust DQ to know a bit more than you. If DQ didn’t think he should be there,I’ll roll with his opinion.
 

Creeper

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I am trying to be as objective as possible about Joseph the football player and not allow his offseason stupidity to influence what I think about him.

From what I have seen of all of the Cowboys backup CBs lately, none are any good. No matter who they put out there, there are going to be plays the other team will make. That is the given in this situation. I think Wright probably is the best of them at this point but he has a major flaw in his game. He is slow, especially coming out of breaks. His receivers get way too much separation and even with his height he cannot get the job done. Of course if there is a QB who makes a mistake like the journeyman in Tenn, Wright has a chance to make a play. That's not happening with Brady.

Joseph has the tools. He has speed and athleticism. But it seems like he has a low football IQ. I know he gets criticized for penalties, but Sam Williams makes a lot of dumb penalties too and does not get the same criticism. The problem with Joseph is I have not seen him rise the the occasion, not once. In the time I have seen him he stays with the receivers but is clueless what to do with the ball in the air. He lacks experience or understanding of how to play the position. Now I know people will bring up the deep ball where he bit for the double move, but that is not the same thing as just getting outrun. Wright and the others will just get outrun on those deep balls and crossing routes. I would also keep in mind Diggs and others have been beaten the same way. In some cases quite badly. Joseph played 0 snaps at CB last week which was a shame. It would have been good to see if he learned anything from being benched. With him, I just want to know if he is redeemable. Some players get benched and get angry. The strive to be better. I don't know how Joseph will respond to being benched.

Wright is tall and can use that to his advantage, but he is really slow when he has to break with a receiver. He does not have the catchup speed. He can get handsy and commit holding and PI penalties because he does not have the speed/quickness to stay with receivers. Savvy QBs will look to throw to receivers who are breaking hard inside, or fast receivers who run stop and go routes when Wright is in. With Brady at QB, Wright is a liability. But he does seem to know how to play the position better than Joseph does.

Alexander is too slow, but he seems to play those slants and short inside stuff better than Wright. That could be a positive against Brady and the Bucs. But I have not seen enough of him. If he plays press better than Wright or Joseph he may be useful this week.

I haven't seen enough of Mullin or Rhodes, but I think Rhodes is past his prime and would be a longshot to be the solution. Does it make sense to throw him out there at this point not knowing what he is? Play the devil you know instead?

There are other options. They can rotate CBs for particular situations. They can try players like Mukuamu and Tyler Coyle at CB. Coyle if I recall has good speed coming out of college. I believe he ran a 4.36 40. He hasn't played much and I don't think he has played any CB, but the few plays he played last week he did not look lost.

It is a problem the Cowboys are not going to solve now. They have to play someone who is going to miss some plays and they have to accept it. I think they expected too much from Joseph and pulled him to soon but I understand it. Now they are really between a rock and a hard spot.

The best answer for me is to turn the pass rush loose.
 

Pass2Run

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I don't know, I will say I do not think Cowboys brought in Xaiver Rhodes for no reason. he at the very least brings vet experience

This is what I think.

Brady likes to dink and dunk nowadays, so the Cowboys want to use Rhodes to stop him.
 

G2

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I am trying to be as objective as possible about Joseph the football player and not allow his offseason stupidity to influence what I think about him.

From what I have seen of all of the Cowboys backup CBs lately, none are any good. No matter who they put out there, there are going to be plays the other team will make. That is the given in this situation. I think Wright probably is the best of them at this point but he has a major flaw in his game. He is slow, especially coming out of breaks. His receivers get way too much separation and even with his height he cannot get the job done. Of course if there is a QB who makes a mistake like the journeyman in Tenn, Wright has a chance to make a play. That's not happening with Brady.

Joseph has the tools. He has speed and athleticism. But it seems like he has a low football IQ. I know he gets criticized for penalties, but Sam Williams makes a lot of dumb penalties too and does not get the same criticism. The problem with Joseph is I have not seen him rise the the occasion, not once. In the time I have seen him he stays with the receivers but is clueless what to do with the ball in the air. He lacks experience or understanding of how to play the position. Now I know people will bring up the deep ball where he bit for the double move, but that is not the same thing as just getting outrun. Wright and the others will just get outrun on those deep balls and crossing routes. I would also keep in mind Diggs and others have been beaten the same way. In some cases quite badly. Joseph played 0 snaps at CB last week which was a shame. It would have been good to see if he learned anything from being benched. With him, I just want to know if he is redeemable. Some players get benched and get angry. The strive to be better. I don't know how Joseph will respond to being benched.

Wright is tall and can use that to his advantage, but he is really slow when he has to break with a receiver. He does not have the catchup speed. He can get handsy and commit holding and PI penalties because he does not have the speed/quickness to stay with receivers. Savvy QBs will look to throw to receivers who are breaking hard inside, or fast receivers who run stop and go routes when Wright is in. With Brady at QB, Wright is a liability. But he does seem to know how to play the position better than Joseph does.

Alexander is too slow, but he seems to play those slants and short inside stuff better than Wright. That could be a positive against Brady and the Bucs. But I have not seen enough of him. If he plays press better than Wright or Joseph he may be useful this week.

I haven't seen enough of Mullin or Rhodes, but I think Rhodes is past his prime and would be a longshot to be the solution. Does it make sense to throw him out there at this point not knowing what he is? Play the devil you know instead?

There are other options. They can rotate CBs for particular situations. They can try players like Mukuamu and Tyler Coyle at CB. Coyle if I recall has good speed coming out of college. I believe he ran a 4.36 40. He hasn't played much and I don't think he has played any CB, but the few plays he played last week he did not look lost.

It is a problem the Cowboys are not going to solve now. They have to play someone who is going to miss some plays and they have to accept it. I think they expected too much from Joseph and pulled him to soon but I understand it. Now they are really between a rock and a hard spot.

The best answer for me is to turn the pass rush loose.
But all of Joseph's accolades are based on this mysterious potential. Let's forget the off the field stuff, though I feel it's relevant. He's simply not equipped with an NFL player brain. I've yet to see all of this supposed athleticism. All I've seen when he can actually get on the field is low football IQ mistakes that cost the team. I mean, he had back to back special teams penalties! That's where players go to get opportunities not get worse. The pre snap penalties are even worse.
Rhodes was a "look to see" and unless Bland is out there, it really doesn't matter at this point in the season. What we have is what we have.
 

xwalker

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And he was taken off the boundary corner role in what, two weeks, after Brown went down?
Quinn has pretty much shadow banned him from the defense and was trying out a week 15 cut corner out there.
He may be great to coach on special teams, where he's had a few dumb penalties, but he was drafted to be a corner, not a gunner.
Coach speak is also BS too. They very rarely put down players publicly. They punish them by taking away snaps.
Jabril Cox and Jalen Tolbert not playing...
- Are they bad character players?
 

CWR

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I’m sorry but Dallas made a huge mistake not letting Joseph get all the reps possible before the playoffs.

Now #2 corner is clearly our biggest weakness headed into the playoffs and as bad as it sounds Kelvin Joseph is still our best option.

For all the hate Anthony Brown received on this forum his loss may be what sends us home early in the playoffs.

They should have been running Bland as cb2 and KJ in the slot. That was my expectation after KJs crap game.
 

eromeopolk

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I’m sorry but Dallas made a huge mistake not letting Joseph get all the reps possible before the playoffs.

Now #2 corner is clearly our biggest weakness headed into the playoffs and as bad as it sounds Kelvin Joseph is still our best option.

For all the hate Anthony Brown received on this forum his loss may be what sends us home early in the playoffs.
If you have a stud at one corner, who is the other team going to throw at? Cornerback no.2...see see Mel Renfro and all others. Everson Walls and all others. Kevin Smith and Larry Brown. Deion Sanders and Larry Brown. Terrence Newman and all others. All others get thrown at on defense.

Kelvin Joseph will come up and hit you. Has played good special teams (that is where the best in Cowboys history started see Drew Pearson, Tony Hill, and Miles Austin). So you are probably right that he needs more reps to regain coverage and ball skills. Plus the Cowboys actually lost 2 CBs in Brown and Lewis.

Remember Tom Landry's, Jimmy Johnson's and Bill Parcells' 3 year rule about rookie players.

But what do they know about Dallas Cowboys football in Jerry's World.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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You can break a players confidence if you leave them out there when they are not ready.

Joseph was clearly unprepared to play the position. His technique was sloppy and he was clueless about formation tendencies and route combinations. That is on Joseph and isn't going to be fixed in 4 weeks of midseason practice and games.

This spring Joseph needs to go anywhere but Louisiana and where his friends from there are, hire a top DB coach or go to their facilities, and train full time for a few months.
 

Creeper

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But all of Joseph's accolades are based on this mysterious potential. Let's forget the off the field stuff, though I feel it's relevant. He's simply not equipped with an NFL player brain. I've yet to see all of this supposed athleticism. All I've seen when he can actually get on the field is low football IQ mistakes that cost the team. I mean, he had back to back special teams penalties! That's where players go to get opportunities not get worse. The pre snap penalties are even worse.
Rhodes was a "look to see" and unless Bland is out there, it really doesn't matter at this point in the season. What we have is what we have.
Joseph has the physical tools. Size, Speed, athleticism. As I mentioned he lacks football IQ. I can't comment on whether he is just stupid or not because I have never even heard him talk. Likewise I have no idea if he is lazy, or disinterested. That's something the coaches know I am sure. From what I have seen of him, he can stay with receivers but he is clueless about what to do if the ball is in the air. I have chalked it up to inexperience. But it is possible it is just an inability to learn, or a lack of interest in learning the position. What Joseph has cannot be taught. Wright is not going to get faster. But I admit speed alone is not enough. Technique is important too, for everyone but Deion Sanders.
 

G2

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Joseph has the physical tools. Size, Speed, athleticism. As I mentioned he lacks football IQ. I can't comment on whether he is just stupid or not because I have never even heard him talk. Likewise I have no idea if he is lazy, or disinterested. That's something the coaches know I am sure. From what I have seen of him, he can stay with receivers but he is clueless about what to do if the ball is in the air. I have chalked it up to inexperience. But it is possible it is just an inability to learn, or a lack of interest in learning the position. What Joseph has cannot be taught. Wright is not going to get faster. But I admit speed alone is not enough. Technique is important too, for everyone but Deion Sanders.
Yeah, to me it doesn't matter why he's not making better decisions. I only care that he repeatedly does make them. Pre snap penalties like lining up in the neutral zone is the rock bottom of dumb penalties. Or, interfering with a kick return calling fair catch. Multiple special teams penalties and dumb choices. He's a step or more behind. He gets torched on a regular basis with a double move.
So size, speed and athleticism isn't an accolade I'd use until there's some evidence of it. All I see is a lost dude on & off the field.

But hey! He's a good tackler on cover teams. :laugh:
 

John813

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Jabril Cox and Jalen Tolbert not playing...
- Are they bad character players?

Who knows. Either that or they couldn't grasp the scheme and it is concerning that both couldn't see meaningful snaps over the course of the season. A rookie WR is one thing, but with our injuries at WR, it was a downer to see his only highlight be a lowlight offsides penalty.

Cox, IMO it seems like early on this offseason they wanted to get an upgrade over him and they signed Barr. Clark got playing time right away when he was cleared for contact but Cox rarely saw the field unless the game was a blowout/he was actually active. The team wanted Gifford over Cox over the entire season until LVE was out.

With Joseph, it was a redflag with him in college being kicked off two teams before declaring for the draft.
I don't recall that with Cox/Tolbert.
 

Jarntt

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I’m sorry but Dallas made a huge mistake not letting Joseph get all the reps possible before the playoffs.

Now #2 corner is clearly our biggest weakness headed into the playoffs and as bad as it sounds Kelvin Joseph is still our best option.

For all the hate Anthony Brown received on this forum his loss may be what sends us home early in the playoffs.
Joseph was horrible. Is he the best option of this bunch? Maybe, maybe not. I want to see Xavier Rhodes get a shot
 
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